Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[Bletchleyite]

Rubbish, its very clear / easy to read, why change it for the sake of "progress"?

It's like stations which have white on black name boards, complete style over substance and horrible (i.e. impossible) to read in poor light.

My favourite remains white on blue in the modern font Network Rail use. Used throughout Europe (SNCF, DB, NS, SNCB/NMBS, OeBB and SBB) so it can't be that far wrong!

You've also got that the global standard for airports (as developed by Schiphol, I think) is yellow on dark grey.

 

[Grumpy Git]

You've also got that the global standard for airports (as developed by Schiphol, I think) is yellow on dark grey.

Dark grey on yellow?

 

[AdamWW]

Rubbish, its very clear / easy to read, why change it for the sake of "progress"?

It's like stations which have white on black name boards, complete style over substance and horrible (i.e. impossible) to read in poor light.

While I'm at it, what about having platform numbers listed in timetables, (like BR managed for 40 odd years)? When I'm abroad, the guard can tell me where to change AND the platform number.

Rail was designed to be easy to read.

Unless we now have a better understanding of how to achieve that, I don't really see why it needs changing.

The "Transport" font has remained in use since the 60's. Do you think that has dated less?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dark grey on yellow?

Sorry, yes, you're right! I was thinking of the platform level signs at Gatwick for some reason, which are the reverse of the airport norm.

Though it appears they use both to a limited extent:

Gatwick airport sign hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy

Find the perfect gatwick airport sign stock photo, image, vector, illustration or 360 image. Available for both RF and RM licensing.

www.alamy.com

 

[43096]

My favourite remains white on blue in the modern font Network Rail use. Used throughout Europe (SNCF, DB, NS, SNCB/NMBS, OeBB and SBB) so it can't be that far wrong!

You've also got that the global standard for airports (as developed by Schiphol, I think) is yellow on dark grey.

Ah, SBB. Who use Helvetica (or close to) as their font, which isn’t really that much different from, er, Rail Alphabet. You are making no sense whatsoever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, SBB. Who use Helvetica (or close to) as their font, which isn’t really that much different from, er, Rail Alphabet. You are making no sense whatsoever.

I'm referring to white on blue in terms of the other railways, the fonts vary.

Helvetica is indeed a very dated font - it's one of a number of aspects that gives SBB a very "heavy bit of infrastructure" feel.

 

[43096]

Helvetica is indeed a very dated font - it's one of a number of aspects that gives SBB a very "heavy bit of infrastructure" feel.

What does that even mean?

 

[zwk500]

Sorry, yes, you're right! I was thinking of the platform level signs at Gatwick for some reason, which are the reverse of the airport norm.

Though it appears they use both to a limited extent:

Gatwick airport sign hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy

Find the perfect gatwick airport sign stock photo, image, vector, illustration or 360 image. Available for both RF and RM licensing.

www.alamy.com

I believe that when BAA sold Gatwick, it retained the intellectual property rights to the signage style so the new owners needed something different, and they decided to just reverse the colours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does that even mean?

The whole thing to me has the feel of a piece of infrastructure - a public service without much attention to niceties. Like road signage. Practical, useful and reliable but not "customer focussed" nor particularly modern.

But I do like white on blue signage. Black on white just looks boring and easily attracts dirt.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The whole thing to me has the feel of a piece of infrastructure - a public service without much attention to niceties. Like road signage. Practical, useful and reliable but not "customer focussed".

By being standardised it is COMPLETELY customer focused. Swiss railways signage is a lesson in how to "get it right"

 

[Gareth]

One of my family members said that it should be called Great Britain Railways and not Great British Railways as the latter suggests the British are Great. By calling it Great Britain, it reflects the area it covers.

I felt that is precisely why they wanted to use it. Brexit and all that. Not that I want to start a Brexit debate. Just that I'm sure that influenced the name choice.

I love the green colour of the Great Western Railway and would like to see more of that.

Obviously, if it's broken into regions then different regions will have different colours.

And Great British Bake Off too. Always knew that Mary Berry was an effin' nazi.

 

[Grumpy Git]

You should see my Intercity livery proposals Bletchleyite!

I think you'll like them!

So my concept is to use the same livery design, but in different colours for different regions of intercity services.

I know they won't be on 91s, but it's just an example train I had!

Just Imagine these are 800s!

Also, using silver as a base colour will mean they hide the dirt well!


So what I'm saying here is basically, whenever any 80x or other train needs repainting roll out an identity like these.

Let me know what you think!

Anglia
View attachment 96662

East Midlands
View attachment 96664

GWR
View attachment 96663


West Coast
View attachment 96665

North Eastern
View attachment 96666

Those are great renders, well done.

This just shows how a well designed classy livery passes the test of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Great British Bake Off too. Always knew that Mary Berry was an effin' nazi.

Crikey, I never expected a thread about what some might call paint wibble would end up Godwinned!

 

[physics34]

Honestly, I look back at the original British Rail redesign manual and even now it strikes me how clean, easy to understand, and even modern it looks. It was flat design before it was trendy.

It's a design language and brand scheme that has survived well beyond BR for a reason. It works, really well.

100% agree.

The railway is a passenger service not an art gallery. Clean, simple, professional.

 

[Gareth]

Crikey, I never expected a thread about what some might call paint wibble would end up Godwinned!

It's Great British paint wibble though. So it was inevitable.

Also, Mary Berry is a menace to society.

 

[Amaroussi]

I wonder if "New British Rail" has been suggested before? I remember Argentina used that format when they bought back Ferrocarriles Argentinos as "Nuevos Ferrocarriles Argentinos" back in 2015.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Those are great renders, well done.

This just shows how a well designed classy livery passes the test of time.

Thank you.

Indeed it does.

I shall try and make an 80x, to see what swallow might look like on them if they were repainted like that at some point in their service life.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Thank you.

Indeed it does.

I shall try and make an 80x, to see what swallow might look like on them if they were repainted like that at some point in their service life.

You only need look at the recently repainted 89001 to see what a great livery that is/was, (particularly when its clean)!

 

[Rhydgaled]

North Eastern
View attachment 96666

That is pretty damn close to what I would propose for WEST COAST intercity services - just without the lower red stripe. The original Swallow livery doesn't really work on the coaches now that we have to have contrasting door colours, but lose the double white-red stripe and it works. The old GWT 'Merlin' livery is a similar design - basically Swallow with the red stripe gone - and I feel would work well for GWR intercity services (keep their current all-green scheme for the local stuff) with the green of the upper bodyside extended to cover the full height of the doors. Much like this (done in Paint, so please excuse the poor quality):


I don't have the correct font, but the 'Great Western' should be in the same font as the Intercity logo. Thanks to WestRail642fan for the original image of the class 800.

Could it just be that the UK flag is such a hideous, cluttered mess of a flag — nothing to be proud of? How much finer the simplicity of the English red cross, the Scottish saltire, and the Welsh dragon. Now there are three flags one can both be proud of and delight in.

I disagree; the English flag is rather dull in my view - the union flag is great (I also like the Welsh dragon flag and the saltire). I think the saltire is the only one of the four that could work to the extent it does as a train livery though.

I really have no issue with someone wanting to fly a flag (ANY flag), but in the last few months it isn't enough to have one flag.. we need more. We need them everywhere it seems, or else you must hate England/GB/UK and will be quickly told to shove off.

Grant has now just changed his profile picture, and it's sad because I doubt all of these people have suddenly become extra patriotic. I assume the Tory party has told all members to do this, and it's quite laughable.

If GB Railways wants to use red, white and blue, that's absolutely fine. Heck, bring back NSE! But let's not pretend this whole thing hasn't been named as part of a post-Brexit attempt to show how we've taken back control.

View attachment 96668

I agree, that background is a little too in-your-face, but I still think the union flag is great.

Or Scottish nationalists. But even if Scotland does secede, which there is a decent chance it will, there are still going to be international trains from England, most probably operated by English TOCs, just like there are international trains all over Europe and nobody overly cares that they might be using a DB, SNCF or FS train for their domestic Swiss journey, for example (other than that the FS one is highly likely to be late ).

If Scotland manages to rejoin the EU though, the trains may need to stop at the border for immigration checks, or terminals will need facilities like St. Pancras International, which won't help compete with air on Anglo-Scottish routes. Remember that 'control of our borders' and a target to reduce (net?) immigration to the tens of thousands were among the arguments for leaving the EU - so an open border with an EU country seems dodgy. I still don't understand how the Northern Irish suituation has been addressed, and it sounds like it may all fall apart.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think Rail Alphabet looks very dated indeed (unlike LU's New Johnston) and needs to be replaced.

I couldn’t agree more. New Johnston is worlds apart from the original Johnston, far more modern with just enough left to retain authenticity. Rail Alphabet looks horrendously dated, you only have to see it in use on the rural TfW and a couple of Cornish GWR (replaced everywhere else) stations to see that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I find the font used at London Terminals, Birmingham New Street and other NR stations very pleasant

 

[43096]

The whole thing to me has the feel of a piece of infrastructure - a public service without much attention to niceties. Like road signage. Practical, useful and reliable but not "customer focussed" nor particularly modern.

So you don’t want practical, useful and reliable in a public transport system? I’d say that is exactly what is needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you don’t want practical, useful and reliable in a public transport system? I’d say that is exactly what is needed.

It is, but I'd like a bit more than that - I'd like it to look friendly, modern and appealing as well. There is no reason at all for both not to be possible; when making signs; having a different colour and a different font doesn't cost any more.

I suppose you could say I'd like SBB but with a Best Impressions job on it?

 

[43096]

It is, but I'd like a bit more than that - I'd like it to look friendly, modern and appealing as well. There is no reason at all for both not to be possible; when making signs; having a different colour and a different font doesn't cost any more.

I suppose you could say I'd like SBB but with a Best Impressions job on it?

But if you make it “modern” then it rapidly becomes out of date. Better to have something that is practical, useful and reliable, particularly given the scale of the task.

As for Best Impressions, they’re responsible for much of the mess the system is currently. And how many times can you re-hash the same idea before someone cottons on?

In any case, it’s something of an irrelevant debate, as the decision has been made to go with New Rail Alphabet.

 

[AdamWW]

e - and I feel would work well for GWR intercity services (keep their current all-green scheme for the local stuff)

I do like the idea of different variants of a livery for different types of service.

I can see why currently operators would rather have a uniform livery for all their services, but SWT pulled it off in what I thought was rather a good way.

 

[DJ_K666]

I’m unsure about the livery as such, but if Great British Railways is taken forward, I’d expect ‘GBR’ to feature. One overarching brand, with sub brands sitting below it, for long distance services and regional brands all under the GBR moniker, much like we do today with Southern, South Eastern, South Western, Northern, etc.

I doubt we will see things like Arriva or First or Stagecoach appear, despite those companies might operate the services.

To me the current sorry mess that is Southern is an insult to the precious company and simply takes its name in vain.

 

[Mike Machin]

If a unified branding is to be used, I think it would be most effective if it could be introduced as quickly and cost-effectively as possible. It has to be conceded that re-branding of Scotrail, TfW or London Overground is very unlikely, so as the new GBR services are likely to run mainly within England, I would personally suggest a livery with a nod towards the England flag, and I don't mean the cross of St. George everywhere, just a subtle use of red highlights, together with whites/greys and silvers.

Much of the rolling stock now has a base coat of white or light grey, so it would just be a case of replacing the multitude of colours that abound at the moment with reds and greys and using the Rail Alphabet consistently. The new red/grey areas can be fairly random, and, for the time being to make the transition effective and as quick as possible, the red/grey areas would literally replace the existing colours, for example the blue areas on Northern and SWR would be replaced with reds/greys. The overall effect eventually would be to have all trains in a livery very similar to the current Greater Anglia.

With the colours used in this way, I do't think anyone could accuse them of being 'jingoistically English', in fact most people wouldn't really read anything into it at all - but it would bring some much-needed consistency to the fleet and help to quickly establish a 'brand' in the eyes of the public to signify change.

As a graphic designer myself, such a change would not only provide some much needed visual consistency to the network, but it would also ensure that any change in contracts or re-allocation of stock doesn't entail un-wanted and unnecessary expenditure on endless re-branding.

There are a few fleets where this isn't so easy (think South Eastern and gWr), but many of the existing schemes could be adapted quite quickly and easily - LNER, Greater Anglia (already done!), Northern, SWR, Southern, XC, Avanti West Coast, c2c etc. The roll-out would be relatively easy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the current sorry mess that is Southern is an insult to the precious company and simply takes its name in vain.

It went through a really bad patch over the DOO/OBS issue, but now that's done with I find it does the job fairly well, to be honest. It's not exciting, but who wants a day-to-day commuter service to be exciting?

 

[221101 Voyager]

You only need look at the recently repainted 89001 to see what a great livery that is/was, (particularly when its clean)!

@XAM2175 , @Bletchleyite , @PerryPacer , @Gareth
Seen as you guys liked my 91 mockups, I thought I do some on 80x trains and a 745 for Anglia.

Best part about all these designs is that they would use the same shade of silver as the base colour and the same colour for the doors. The only colour variatons are for each region.


'InterCity Great Western' IEP



'InterCity East Coast' Azuma


'InterCity West Coast' IEP


'InterCity East Midlands' Aurora


'InterCity East Anglia'
V1

V2

I designed these all this morning

 

[DJ_K666]

It went through a really bad patch over the DOO/OBS issue, but now that's done with I find it does the job fairly well, to be honest. It's not exciting, but who wants a day-to-day commuter service to be exciting?

I had to use them over that period and nerly ended up with hypertension. Kind of colours your view of them. Also it was no good if you do shift work at extreme times like I did as a bus driver for B&H, with start times anywhere between 0445 and midday and some finish times at 0050. They were fine for the 9-5 crowd. Again it kind of poisons your point of view. Especially when they can't organise a 20 mile journey that takes less than 2 hours or a proper east to west connection at Brighton without stupidly long waits. Hence my hatred of this company is justified. Plus I supported the guards on that issue. OBS (and this will remain my sincerely held belief) is a non-job.