Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[221101 Voyager]

This isn't true, there have been subtle changes. As built it was a sort of purplish-red stripe with a lighter red shadow, then this changed to solid red in the late 90s/early 2000s. There have also been subtle font changes. OK, it's not a big change, but Germany tends to do rebrandings very infrequently.

Edit: here's an example of the original livery, though I suspect the old Bundesbahn logo was also applied at some point:

Model of ICE coach in old livery - Hattons

BR’s own history says otherwise. Within a period of 10 years, HSTs had three different liveries.

But my point is that DB have had the same basic livery for so long. And although BR did changes, it was still the same basic livery really.

I think the issue is people have run out of ideas and so come up with utter rubbish like Avanti and LNWR.

It seems on here anything new people come up with is snubbed for one reason or another!

Either it's "Oh it looks old fashioned", "Doesn't meet disability regs" and so on!

I think what we need is a simple livery thats a clean design and consists of colours that are easy to keep clean!

 

[ainsworth74]

And although BR did changes, it was still the same basic livery really.

Erm are you sure about that? Because for my money blue & grey is not the "same basic livery" as Swallow, neither is NSEs toothpaste anything like the red and cream worn in the 50s. Other examples are available...

 

[mmh]

Erm are you sure about that? Because for my money blue & grey is not the "same basic livery" as Swallow, neither is NSEs toothpaste anything like the red and cream worn in the 50s. Other examples are available...

Once they'd ditched single colour liveries, they didn't really do anything that wasn't "horizontal stripes." Nothing wrong with that, though, it's the best thing to do with a train - emphasise the linear nature of it, make it look sleeker and longer. Window bands look good for the same reason - see how ugly a 390 without them looks compared to one with them.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Erm are you sure about that? Because for my money blue & grey is not the "same basic livery" as Swallow, neither is NSEs toothpaste anything like the red and cream worn in the 50s. Other examples are available...

No, I meant that Intercity was similar

Like Executive and Swallow were similar for example.

Once they'd ditched single colour liveries, they didn't really do anything that wasn't "horizontal stripes." Nothing wrong with that, though, it's the best thing to do with a train - emphasise the linear nature of it, make it look sleeker and longer. Window bands look good for the same reason - see how ugly a 390 without them looks compared to one with them.

I shall russle up some new designs then!

 

[Fincra5]

One can only hope for a Sectorised return to NSE Single Livery but with sector logos, like before: Thameslink, Sussex Coast and so on.

Add the "Operated By: ..." and perfect

 

[221101 Voyager]

Here is some variants of my original 'swallow inspired' design.

GWR green as an example

V1 White base, with green and two tone silver stripes in the middle (black window surrounds).



V1 A White base, with green and one silver stripe in the middle (black window surrounds).


V2 Silver base, with green and silver stripe in the middle (black window surrounds).


V2A lighter Silver base, with green and silver stripe in the middle (black window surrounds).


V3 Two tone green, silver stripe in the middle (black window surrounds).



V4 straight up intercity in 2021 form!


V5 straight up intercity in 2021 form but with silver!

One can only hope for a Sectorised return to NSE Single Livery but with sector logos, like before: Thameslink, Sussex Coast and so on.

Add the "Operated By: ..." and perfect

Oooh! I like those!

 

[AdamWW]

I don’t think we will see train liveries being changed for a while. Just like when a new TOC has taken on a franchise, the old TOC name gets removed and the new TOC name gets badged in top, like a big rectangular sticker.

Or, if you're Transport For Wales you just pull the old branding off and don't bother putting the new name on anywhere.

 

[mjmason1996]

Managed to get a look at a new proposed one:

I think you're onto something here!

 

[221101 Voyager]

One can only hope for a Sectorised return to NSE Single Livery but with sector logos, like before: Thameslink, Sussex Coast and so on.

Add the "Operated By: ..." and perfect

Looks good on a 350 too!

This isn't the best NSE livery but it's a very rough idea of what could be.

 

[Purple Orange]

But my point is that DB have had the same basic livery for so long. And although BR did changes, it was still the same basic livery really.

I think the issue is people have run out of ideas and so come up with utter rubbish like Avanti and LNWR.

It seems on here anything new people come up with is snubbed for one reason or another!

Either it's "Oh it looks old fashioned", "Doesn't meet disability regs" and so on!

I think what we need is a simple livery thats a clean design and consists of colours that are easy to keep clean!

That’s a bit like saying “everything has been invented, no need for anything more”. Someone will design a great livery in the future and someone else will design a crap livery. The great livery might only look good on certain trains, while on others it looks rubbish. Plus what is one person’s opinion of a great livery will be different to the next.

Personally I don’t like the Intercity swallow or exec liveries and I don’t like the NSE livery either. They are of their time, but not 2020s Britain. Those are the last colour schemes I’d want to see. Some people like the Mallard in LNER blue, while others prefer the BR dark green or one of the variations of blue. I quite like the Avanti design for the IETs and 390s, as well as TPE’s IET livery, but I don’t like LNER’s livery on an IET.

 

[221101 Voyager]

That’s a bit like saying “everything has been invented, no need for anything more”. Someone will design a great livery in the future and someone else will design a crap livery. The great livery might only look good on certain trains, while on others it looks rubbish. Plus what is one person’s opinion of a great livery will be different to the next.

Personally I don’t like the Intercity swallow or exec liveries and I don’t like the NSE livery either. They are of their time, but not 2020s Britain. Those are the last colour schemes I’d want to see. Some people like the Mallard in LNER blue, while others prefer the BR dark green or one of the variations of blue. I quite like the Avanti design for the IETs and 390s, as well as TPE’s IET livery, but I don’t like LNER’s livery on an IET.

What is of 2020s Britain then? I'll give you an opportunity to make up a better more modern scheme then.

 

[Purple Orange]

What is of 2020s Britain then? I'll give you an opportunity to make up a better more modern scheme then.

The old BR liveries look dated now and have done for a while. By 2020s Britain, I mean a design that is reflective of modern day marketing and branding. A throwback to the 70s and 80s can sometimes work, but not often, but I think a fresh design will be best. Not a hark back to the childhood days of enthusiasts.

 

[221101 Voyager]

The old BR liveries look dated now and have done for a while. By 2020s Britain, I mean a design that is reflective of modern day marketing and branding. A throwback to the 70s and 80s can sometimes work, but not often, but I think a fresh design will be best. Not a hark back to the childhood days of enthusiasts.

I've just come up with a design...

How about this? A bit more dynamic.


This example is for a Great Western train.

 

[Purple Orange]

I've just come up with a design...

How about this? A bit more dynamic.

View attachment 96912
This example is for a Great Western train.

I reckon a simple logo like the one you’ve depicted will be what we see. It might have the operator identified in a small way too.

 

[YorksLad12]

Question for the designers. Why do you show the double-arrow logo *and* the words "Great British Railways"?
Question for the corporate identity designers: why do you assume that the region name will appear on trains?

It could as easily be the logo, the 'service' name (TransPennine Express, Chiltern, Great Western, etc.) and the name of the service company ("by Arriva", "from First").

(No, I don't have a version of Transport or Rail Alphabet I could use for this. )

 

[221101 Voyager]

I reckon a simple logo like the one you’ve depicted will be what we see. It might have the operator identified in a small way too.

Something like this...

Question for the designers. Why do you show the double-arrow logo *and* the words "Great British Railways"?
Question for the corporate identity designers: why do you assume that the region name will appear on trains?

It could as easily be the logo, the 'service' name (TransPennine Express, Chiltern, Great Western, etc.) and the name of the service company ("by Arriva", "from First").

(No, I don't have a version of Transport or Rail Alphabet I could use for this. )

We will probably get something like this...

PS - I find Arial is quite a close match for rail alphabet!

 

[irish_rail]

I've just come up with a design...

How about this? A bit more dynamic.

View attachment 96912
This example is for a Great Western train.

But where will the daft namings go (not to mention all the other badges and text that clutters up the front of a fair few of the GWR fleet at present.....

 

[221101 Voyager]

But where will the daft namings go (not to mention all the other badges and text that clutters up the front of a fair few of the GWR fleet at present.....

Here you go!

 

[Gareth]

I still think" Great British Railways" will be mostly likely be termed GBR, most of the time.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I still think" Great British Railways" will be mostly likely be termed GBR, most of the time.

So do I.

It's too long to write in full!

Like this!

 

[YorksLad12]

View attachment 96917

Here you go!

I think it'll be more like... East Coast (or whatever), the full height of the parallel tracks. Underneath that in a smaller font, about half the height of the space between the botton track and the bottom of the arrow "Operated by [whomever] for Great British Railways". The text won't be centred vertically with the logo. Not too dissimilar to the old Northern logo arrangement.

That's how I'd do it if I could be bothered!

 

[221101 Voyager]

I think it'll be more like... East Coast (or whatever), the full height of the parallel tracks. Underneath that in a smaller font, about half the height of the space between the botton track and the bottom of the arrow "Operated by [whomever] for Great British Railways". The text won't be centred vertically with the logo. Not too dissimilar to the old Northern logo arrangement.

That's how I'd do it if I could be bothered!

Is this the sort of thing you're on about?

 

[Purple Orange]

I still think" Great British Railways" will be mostly likely be termed GBR, most of the time.

Shorthand and in general parlance yes, but “Great British Railways” will be a brand that the DfT will want to get out there sooner rather than later, even if it is just a vinyl on top of existing TOC names.

 

[YorksLad12]

View attachment 96921
View attachment 96922

Is this the sort of thing you're on about?

More or less. More than less (but it'll be Great British Railways in full - why bother trumpeting the new name if it's going to be truncated (we'll all call it BR, obvs)?)

 

[XAM2175]

We will probably get something like this...

PS - I find Arial is quite a close match for rail alphabet!

In all of your concepts the Rail Symbol (double-arrow) is far too large for the accompanying lettering, if you're looking to be guided by the original design rules. The x-height of the lower-case lettering should be equal to the height of the horizontal arms in the symbol, so that the row of text appears to align with them. The attachments illustrate this.

(from the BR Corporate Identity Manual preserved at https://doublearrow.co.uk/manual)

 

[Gareth]

Shorthand and in general parlance yes, but “Great British Railways” will be a brand that the DfT will want to get out there sooner rather than later, even if it is just a vinyl on top of existing TOC names.

I don't know. I think GBR is generally what we'll see; the full name being for official/legal purposes.

 

[221101 Voyager]

In all of your concepts the Rail Symbol (double-arrow) is far too large for the accompanying lettering, if you're looking to be guided by the original design rules. The x-height of the lower-case lettering should be equal to the height of the horizontal arms in the symbol, so that the row of text appears to align with them. The attachments illustrate this.

(from the BR Corporate Identity Manual preserved at https://doublearrow.co.uk/manual)

Thanks for those.

I shall design and apply some new branding to trains in their current liveries to see what we may get.
I’m out at the minute so shall get designing again when I get home.

In all of your concepts the Rail Symbol (double-arrow) is far too large for the accompanying lettering, if you're looking to be guided by the original design rules. The x-height of the lower-case lettering should be equal to the height of the horizontal arms in the symbol, so that the row of text appears to align with them. The attachments illustrate this.

(from the BR Corporate Identity Manual preserved at https://doublearrow.co.uk/manual)

Here's a better full sized one.

Ones used in the diagrams below aren't perfect, but just to illustrate what they may look like.




Here is a rough sample on an Azuma.





On a 350 for the WCML


On a GWR 387.

 

[sjoh]

Rail Britannia
Britannia rules the rails

But in Comic Sans.

Sorted.

 

[YorksLad12]

Thanks for those.

I shall design and apply some new branding to trains in their current liveries to see what we may get.
I’m out at the minute so shall get designing again when I get home.


Here's a better full sized one.

Ones used in the diagrams below aren't perfect, but just to illustrate what they may look like.

View attachment 96932


Here is a rough sample on an Azuma.
View attachment 96934


View attachment 96935

On a 350 for the WCML
View attachment 96936

On a GWR 387.
View attachment 96937

Much closer to what I was meaning (thanks @XAM2175 for finding that reference). Needs a larger gap between the symbol and the lettering methinks, to match the original British Rail style.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Rail Britannia
Britannia rules the rails

But in Comic Sans.

Sorted.

LOL!

Much closer to what I was meaning (thanks @XAM2175 for finding that reference). Needs a larger gap between the symbol and the lettering methinks, to match the original British Rail style.

They are only rough examples.

It will be good to see what they come up with in reality.