Great Western Electrification Progress

[Non Multi]

Is the damage to the carbons so severe that the units have to be taken out of service?

 

[dp21]

387s have been turning up on Reading TCD with damaged carbons on the pans; and on a 387 you cant just replace the carbons you have to replace the whole pan - which consequently are becoming short in supply. Heathrow units not being affected; nor are IETs. Cab rides earlier in week turned up nothing obvious so mentor has been drafted in for a closer look.

Pan Cam should give you some nice evidence...unless its dark...

 

[Mag_seven]

387s have been turning up on Reading TCD with damaged carbons on the pans; and on a 387 you cant just replace the carbons you have to replace the whole pan - which consequently are becoming short in supply. Heathrow units not being affected; nor are IETs. Cab rides earlier in week turned up nothing obvious so mentor has been drafted in for a closer look.

Thanks for the info.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought some 800 and 387 units had an OHLE monitoring capability fitted, like a couple of the Pendolinos?
Now a few GW monitoring runs by a 390 would be entertaining...

 

[Siemens Staines]

387s have been turning up on Reading TCD with damaged carbons on the pans; and on a 387 you cant just replace the carbons you have to replace the whole pan - which consequently are becoming short in supply. Heathrow units not being affected; nor are IETs. Cab rides earlier in week turned up nothing obvious so mentor has been drafted in for a closer look.

Do 387s not have some form of black box data loggers to monitor currents drawn from the OLE? Just thinking if it was something like an area that was more prone to overnight frost/ice forming on the OLE which wouldn't show up on a daytime inspection but would in current fluctuations when a pan hits frost/ice - especially as 387s are out working at hours when IET are still tucked up in bed.

 

[JN114]

Is the damage to the carbons so severe that the units have to be taken out of service?

In one or two cases replacement pans have been fitted - it has had a slight impact on availability but nothing to write home about. FGW_DID is closer to the action on these matters; he might be able to comment more...

Pan Cam should give you some nice evidence...unless its dark...

Pan cam shewed up some minor issues; but nothing consistent with the damage being caused. There is roof-mounted illumination on 387s to light up OLE above pan well for pan cam.

I thought some 800 and 387 units had an OHLE monitoring capability fitted, like a couple of the Pendolinos?
Now a few GW monitoring runs by a 390 would be entertaining...

There is a whole host of OLE monitoring on all GW 387s and 800s as NR get to grips with their new toy. HEX also have two instrumented 332s. With mentor now on the patch I don’t think the 390s will be necessary!

Do 387s not have some form of black box data loggers to monitor currents drawn from the OLE? Just thinking if it was something like an area that was more prone to overnight frost/ice forming on the OLE which wouldn't show up on a daytime inspection but would in current fluctuations when a pan hits frost/ice - especially as 387s are out working at hours when IET are still tucked up in bed.

Per above, all sorts of monitoring on 387s. NRs focus is presently on finding some kind of infrastructure defect; based on the nature of the carbon damage - more consistent with infrastructure issues than ice.

 

[spark001uk]

Do the 387 and 80x have a similar pan to wire force?

 

[FGW_DID]

Is the damage to the carbons so severe that the units have to be taken out of service?

In one or two cases replacement pans have been fitted - it has had a slight impact on availability but nothing to write home about. FGW_DID is closer to the action on these matters; he might be able to comment more...

Pretty much spot on, a minor impact, the units concerned were straight back out into traffic after a pan change.

After that Pans were being checked at various stages during the journey so I think they managed to narrow the area down to between Reading and Didcot on the reliefs, hence why the 800s weren’t being affected. Touch wood, we haven’t had anything since!

 

[3973EXL]

Poster now up at Reading West reference work from March.



More clearance work has continued and there are now two trial holes on the up side.

B&H closed on week nights from 29/01 with buses replacing late evening trains. Regular maintenance closure, I believe, giving the opportunity for electrification work. RTT shows 3 workings Mon to Thurs from Swindon Transfer.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XSJ/2018/01/29/1200-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
​

 

[Non Multi]

Poster now up at Reading West reference work from March.

View attachment 41743

More clearance work has continued and there are now two trial holes on the up side.

View attachment 41741 View attachment 41742 View attachment 41734 View attachment 41735 View attachment 41736 View attachment 41737 View attachment 41738 View attachment 41739 View attachment 41740

B&H closed on week nights from 29/01 with buses replacing late evening trains. Regular maintenance closure, I believe, giving the opportunity for electrification work. RTT shows 3 workings Mon to Thurs from Swindon Transfer.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XSJ/2018/01/29/1200-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
​

What's the QR code on the poster for?

 

[3973EXL]

What's the QR code on the poster for?

More info.

Probably the same as https://www.gwr.com/travel-updates/planned-engineering/newbury2018

 

[Non Multi]

More info.

Probably the same as https://www.gwr.com/travel-updates/planned-engineering/newbury2018

Thank you.

 

[JN114]

Pretty much spot on, a minor impact, the units concerned were straight back out into traffic after a pan change.

After that Pans were being checked at various stages during the journey so I think they managed to narrow the area down to between Reading and Didcot on the reliefs, hence why the 800s weren’t being affected. Touch wood, we haven’t had anything since!

Mentor’s test runs turned up nothing on mains and reliefs, however a block to electric traction has been imposed this afternoon in Hayes Bay, with strong evidence that an OHLE defect at the London end of the Bay platform has been causing Pan damage. Padd - Hayes shuttles were initially cancelled; now being operated with a 2 car turbo on each circuit. NR looking to carry out rectification work overnight.

 

[Mag_seven]

Mentor’s test runs turned up nothing on mains and reliefs, however a block to electric traction has been imposed this afternoon in Hayes Bay, with strong evidence that an OHLE defect at the London end of the Bay platform has been causing Pan damage. Padd - Hayes shuttles were initially cancelled; now being operated with a 2 car turbo on each circuit. NR looking to carry out rectification work overnight.

Thanks for keeping us informed about this.

 

[Pete_uk]

I suppose local services out of Paddington are a bit stuffed should there be a problem with the wires

 

[JN114]

I suppose local services out of Paddington are a bit stuffed should there be a problem with the wires

No more so than Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street have been for several years

 

[deltic08]

I was referring to the previous suggestion that they might energise as far as Swindon. I don't think that brings any extra feed points in so it probably won't happen until the wiring is suitable for energisation as far as Thingley.

I have heard from a reliable source that Didcot-Swindon energisation target is Easter 2018.

 

[Occtraveller]

387s have been turning up on Reading TCD with damaged carbons on the pans; and on a 387 you cant just replace the carbons you have to replace the whole pan - which consequently are becoming short in supply.

Surely the carbon strips are a wear item?? The whole point of using carbon, rather than something more conductive, is that it wears in preference to the much harder to replace contact wire.

I suppose it's possible that a new design means that the pantograph has to be dismounted to change the strips, or it's slow enough to do that swapping the pan is the only way to get it done in a shift. But I'm very skeptical: as far as I was aware, the 387 uses a Brecknell-Willis High Speed Pantograph, the same as the Class 800 and practically every other GB EMU and electric locomotive capable of over 100mph.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have heard from a reliable source that Didcot-Swindon energisation target is Easter 2017.

2018 ?

 

[deltic08]

2018 ?

Yes of course it is 2018. Thank you. I've corrected #6437.

 

[jyte]

I have heard from a reliable source that Didcot-Swindon energisation target is Easter 2018.

Woah.

That's quite a lot to get done in not that much time. I wonder if we're due for a few weekend blockades of Didcot - Swindon to get that done.

 

[deltic08]

But the 80Xs have engine pre-heating cycles to mitigate against these kind of issues. At present it requires the driver to start the engines several minutes before anticipated mode switchover; but in future as with the switchover itself will be controlled from trackside balises. It is exactly the kind of thing the trains were designed to do. And Oxford wiring has been indefinitely deferred. It is hoped it will be picked up in CP6, but that’s by no means a certainty. So until Oxford is reconfirmed it is exactly like Bedwyn.

800s were not designed for commuter work in diesel mode. They were designed for 140mph long distance InterCity work on 25kv electric.
Fitting with underfloor power units required redesigning the bodyshell to accept them.
Whether heating up in service or preheated, repeated heating and cooling for short repeated cycles will cause rapid wear leading to failure. That is the nature of cast metal.

 

[Mag_seven]

I have heard from a reliable source that Didcot-Swindon energisation target is Easter 2018.

Doubt that due to Steventon Bridge issue?

 

[edwin_m]

Doubt that due to Steventon Bridge issue?

There may be an OLE gap there, or a steep wire gradient with a speed restriction for anything passing through with pans up. As 387s won't go west of Didcot the electric trains will all be 80x which can run through on diesel or even better coast through and only start the diesel if they get stranded.

Remember also, as seen with previous sections of GWML, that the official energisation date is only the date from which the OLE should be regarded as live. It may not even be live, and won't be ready to run trains until some time afterwards.

 

[deltic08]

Newbury-Bedwyn was costed at around £75m, Westbury £286m - the report can be found here

The idea that using 387s could fund this 'in no time' seems fanciful, especially with the disruption, delays and spiralling costs plaguing other schemes.

Just buying an additional 5x5-car 802s has cost £40m, or more if leased, whereas Bedwyn could be served by the current fleet of 387s. That's more than half the cost of electrification to Bedwyn.
Disruption and delay is part and parcel of electrification and I think we all recognise and accept this except Herr Grayling.

 

[jimm]

800s were not designed for commuter work in diesel mode. They were designed for 140mph long distance InterCity work on 25kv electric.
Fitting with underfloor power units required redesigning the bodyshell to accept them.
Whether heating up in service or preheated, repeated heating and cooling for short repeated cycles will cause rapid wear leading to failure. That is the nature of cast metal.

If you really think the sole purpose of the DfT's InterCity Express Programme was to create a 140mph electric express train, I'd suggest you do some research on the history of the programme since 2005.

You would then find that 140mph long-distance InterCity work was just one of the things the 800s were designed to do. Another of them was work at speeds in the range of a maximum 90-110mph on diesel power on routes like the Cotswold Line, where the stations are an average of seven miles apart, so not dissimilar to what working from Newbury to Bedwyn involves.

The train that has been built was designed from the off to allow for the underfloor engines - all previous design concepts for the train were ditched when the DfT decided this was the sort of train it wanted once GW electrification in particular had altered the requirements.

Just buying an additional 5x5-car 802s has cost £40m, or more if leased, whereas Bedwyn could be served by the current fleet of 387s. That's more than half the cost of electrification to Bedwyn.

The extra order for GWR 802s is for seven 9-car sets. The only five-car 802s ordered for GWR were the 22 in the initial order for the West Country.

Paddington-Bedwyn services will most likely be worked by five-car 800s displaced from other jobs they were previously earmarked for, now that further 9-car 802s will be available. And using bi-modes means that, if required, the sets allocated to the Bedwyn duties can also work further west in the morning and evening peaks from and to the likes of Westbury and Frome, which a 387 can't.

 

[steverailer]

There may be an OLE gap there, or a steep wire gradient with a speed restriction for anything passing through with pans up. As 387s won't go west of Didcot the electric trains will all be 80x which can run through on diesel or even better coast through and only start the diesel if they get stranded.

Remember also, as seen with previous sections of GWML, that the official energisation date is only the date from which the OLE should be regarded as live. It may not even be live, and won't be ready to run trains until some time afterwards.

Steel work going up in the Steventon Gap last week and this midweek along with sps. Wiring is complete from there to Uffington and wiring teams out between there and Swindon this week.

Rumour on the ground is completion of all main steel on the Amey works by Easter 18 and all wiring and registration complete by mid September 18.

Judging by the amount of crews out each night for every discipline, the only thing that will hold this back will be material shortages, as they've finally got the plan sorted where we're not tripping over each other, i.e main steel gets done, then sps follow then ATF and earth, then contact and catenary etc etc. Only taken 3 years to sort but good to see it working in practice at last

 

[Mag_seven]

There may be an OLE gap there, or a steep wire gradient with a speed restriction for anything passing through with pans up. As 387s won't go west of Didcot the electric trains will all be 80x which can run through on diesel or even better coast through and only start the diesel if they get stranded.

Remember also, as seen with previous sections of GWML, that the official energisation date is only the date from which the OLE should be regarded as live. It may not even be live, and won't be ready to run trains until some time afterwards.

Also you won't be able to feed Steventon-Swindon until Swindon - Thingley junction is complete as you can only feed that from Thingley.

 

[coppercapped]

Also you won't be able to feed Steventon-Swindon until Swindon - Thingley junction is complete as you can only feed that from Thingley.

Are you sure that this is correct? A drawing made by ABB - which I downloaded but failed to note its source URL - of the feeder arrangements shows the Didcot Autotransformer Feeder Site (taking its supply from the 400kV grid there) supplying the stretch from Maidenhead to Wootton Bassett. The Wootton Bassett ATFS takes its supply at 50kV from the Melksham 400kV grid supply point and feeds through to Westerleigh Junction and the Filton complex with the Thingley ATFS covering the stretch around Thingley and eventually through to Temple Meads.

So it looks quite possible that Didcot to Swindon can be fed in advance of the completion of the other works to the west. It is, after all, how it is intended to work on completion as there will be a SATS at Swindon.

 

[deltic08]

If you really think the sole purpose of the DfT's InterCity Express Programme was to create a 140mph electric express train, I'd suggest you do some research on the history of the programme since 2005.

You would then find that 140mph long-distance InterCity work was just one of the things the 800s were designed to do. Another of them was work at speeds in the range of a maximum 90-110mph on diesel power on routes like the Cotswold Line, where the stations are an average of seven miles apart, so not dissimilar to what working from Newbury to Bedwyn involves.

The train that has been built was designed from the off to allow for the underfloor engines - all previous design concepts for the train were ditched when the DfT decided this was the sort of train it wanted once GW electrification in particular had altered the requirements.



The extra order for GWR 802s is for seven 9-car sets. The only five-car 802s ordered for GWR were the 22 in the initial order for the West Country.

Paddington-Bedwyn services will most likely be worked by five-car 800s displaced from other jobs they were previously earmarked for, now that further 9-car 802s will be available. And using bi-modes means that, if required, the sets allocated to the Bedwyn duties can also work further west in the morning and evening peaks from and to the likes of Westbury and Frome, which a 387 can't.

Through Cotswold services do not stop at every station on every service. Even if they did, my argument is about cost of short distances only beyond the wires on diesel causing rapid wear to the diesel engines v. extending the overheads.
800s were not originally planned for B&H commuter services. It is a way out of avoiding the wrath of commuters west of Newbury having to change trains in the original plan. This cock-up could only happen in the UK.
Pity commuters living either side of Ormskirk cannot exert the same pressure for through services and new IC trains but they are only Northerners.