Great Western Electrification Progress

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by 76020, 6 May 2013.

  1. 33Hz

    33Hz Member

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    Seems like the beyond Newbury, Didcot-Oxford and Reading-Gatwick use cases would be ideal for the class 769.
     
  2. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    No, they wouldn't, certainly in the case of beyond Newbury - where we already know that the Paddington-Bedwyn services, and presumably some peak extensions from/to Westbury and Frome will be worked by IETs, along with the semi-fast services between Paddington and Exeter - and Didcot to Oxford where common sense should prevail by some point in Control Period 6, with the electrification completed to Oxford, so the 378s can be fully used in the way planned when they were ordered.

    In the case of the North Downs line, any future rolling stock change will presumably depend on how keen the powers that be are to eliminate diesel traction from the area. Even if it is decided that would be a good thing, I wouldn't want to be the person trying to sell the arrival of 769s - essentially a design that is even older than the Turbos - to passengers as any kind of improvement.
     
  3. Non Multi

    Non Multi Member

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    Like 3973EXL, I visited Theale yesterday (12 minute walk to Calcot IKEA over the M4), when it was starting to get dark. Here are some pics:
    P1070318.jpg Covered down platform excavation, presumably for a OLE mast.
    P1070320.jpg View looking west from the Station Rd bridge. Portals with no SPS in place yet.
    P1070337.jpg Theale's new station building (in the car park). Still not in use!!
    P1070339.jpg Part of the local auto transformer feeder? Not sure to be honest (viewed from Brunel Rd).
    P1070341.jpg Portals near the eastern end of the station (viewed from Brunel Rd).
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2018
  4. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    Are you saying that 387s are not being used to Newbury but bimodes are being used on the locals? Didn't realise 800s were designed as commuter stock. If so why are Turbos also required for use beyond Newbury.
    Organisational British cock-up being exercised again instead of finishing electrification at a more sensible junction station like Westbury rather than Newbury just for the sake of a couple of dozen miles of electrification.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jan 2018
  5. JN114

    JN114 Member

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    IETs will be used on Padd - Bedwyns (with requisite extension to Bedwyn Turnback Siding), 387s on Reading - Newbury services.
     
  6. Thatcham Xing

    Thatcham Xing Member

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    .....and platforms due to be extended at some B&H Stations (Theale and Thatcham for sure), but no sign of that work starting as yet.
     
  7. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

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    HSTs are used on many GWR commuter schedules. Some rate the whole GWML to Bristol as a commuter line nowadays. Perhaps wires to Bedwyn could have been done, but all GW IETs had to be made bi-mode anyway and that makes that consideration academic.

    The next logical step in that direction would be from Newbury to Bath via Hawkeridge junction and Bathampton junction, although I imagine that the Westbury complex would be included too, for other reasons, possibly. As things stand none of that is going to happen. They have to do Thingley junction through Box to Bristol first.
     
  8. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    But it is not academic. 387s are cheaper to build, operate and maintain than 800s. This differential would have funded electrification to Bedwyn or even Westbury in no time where 387s could have been used instead.
    We are still hanging on to diesel traction when every opportunity to ditch diesel for electric should be taken. Procrastination is becoming a real disease in Britain.
     
  9. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    Repeated Newbury-Bedwyn-Newbury only on diesel is going to cause accelerated engine wear.
     
  10. JN114

    JN114 Member

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    No different to Didcot - Oxford - Didcot and only somewhat better than Cardiff - Swansea - Cardiff. Not sure what your point is?
     
  11. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    What do you mean?

    The services worked by the IETs will run from Paddington to Bedwyn and then return to Paddington - as JN114 said - using 25kv power for most of each run.

    There isn't going to be a set shuttling up and down between Newbury and Bedwyn all day - the idea of a Turbo shuttle, connecting with 387s at Newbury, has been ditched in favour of using Class 800s to maintain through trains for Bedwyn. This was made possible by the order for seven extra 9-car 802s, which will allow some five-car 800s to be reallocated to other duties, including Paddington-Bedwyns.
     
  12. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    If you had carefully read #6368 and #6369 you would have understood but I will spell it out for you.
    It is nothing like Didcot-Oxford-Didcot as that will be wired shortly and nothing like Cardiff-Swansea-Cardiff as you are comparing 30 mile round trip with 100 miles.
    The maximum wear to an internal combustion engine is starting from cold to operating temperature and repeated cycles. A Paddington-Bedwyn 800 has to start engines from cold at Newbury and travel 14 miles to Bedwyn where engines will only just have reached operating temperature. After a shortish layover the train returns 14 miles to Newbury where engines are switched off. The engines are then rapidly cooled and contracted in a 100mph+ airflow. Metal does not like being treated this way and leads to catastrophic failure. All for the sake of an additional 14 miles of electrification.
    Got it?
     
  13. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    Read #6372 above
     
  14. JN114

    JN114 Member

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    But the 80Xs have engine pre-heating cycles to mitigate against these kind of issues. At present it requires the driver to start the engines several minutes before anticipated mode switchover; but in future as with the switchover itself will be controlled from trackside balises. It is exactly the kind of thing the trains were designed to do. And Oxford wiring has been indefinitely deferred. It is hoped it will be picked up in CP6, but that’s by no means a certainty. So until Oxford is reconfirmed it is exactly like Bedwyn.

    Those 14 miles of electrification would require a significant amount of resignalling (BR/WR E10k signalling is not AC immune, nor are the installations at Hungerford and Bedwyn yet near life expired), and numerous bridges reconstructed. All considerable extra expense when the original plan was for Turbo operation West of Newbury. GW, recognising their customers would be unhappy with the loss of direct off-peak services to London have come up with an innovative use of their very capable new rolling stock to achieve that at a much lower cost than electrification.

    Once the current (already greatly reduced) Electrification works are done; then let’s look at Bedwyn, Westbury etc. By that time resignalling will start becoming necessary and therefore a lot of the cost can be written of. But until then I think you grossly underestimate the cost of electrification vs leasing costs of 802s vs 387s.
     
  15. Class43

    Class43 Member

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    What a particularly rude post.

    Perhaps consider how you come across, especially with your ‘got it’ replies!
     
  16. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    I've no idea what 6368 has to do with any possible effects on the diesel engines and 6369 wasn't exactly packed with any explanation of what you meant.

    While extending wires to Bedwyn had a half-decent cost benefit ratio according to Arup's study for the DfT in 2013, going on to Westbury, the nearby quarries and Bath didn't. Even then, before all the electrification project delays became evident, Newbury-Bedwyn was only talked about as a potential CP6 candidate for investment - any idea of reviving the idea now will presumably be linked to when the local signalling becomes due for renewal.

    If doing Newbury-Bedwayn-Newbury on diesel is going to have the catastrophic effect on engines you claim it will - and JN114 has already pointed out that there are pre-heaters on the diesel engines, which I thought was fairly widely known - then the services running from Paddington to Oxford and back will also likely have worn out plenty of engines before the wires are completed. Even if the installation of wires there starts early in Control Period 6, once the resignalling at Oxford is finished this summer, we are probably looking at a minimum of a couple of years of diesel operation by IETs on those runs - on a duty cycle that most certainly will be a lot like Paddington-Bedwyn and back while it lasts.

    I have a funny feeling that MTU will have put their engines through all sorts of test cycles, in order to understand the potential effects of using them in not necessarily ideal ways, before putting them on the market. And the DfT isn't likely to be too keen on its pet trains being used in a way that damages them, so might just have said something if there were genuine concerns.
     
  17. jyte

    jyte Member

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    The best benefit:cost ratio for wiring the B&H beyond Bedwyn was I believe 0.3:1, or 30 cents on the dollar, which involved wiring the quarries, Froome, Westbury, then towards Bath and also past Melksham towards Chippenham.

    And that was before costs went bananas.

    I'm all for electrifying and stringing up wires, but if we choose to do things based on cost/benefit analyses there will be some projects that just don't get the cut. Here that means no wires to Bedwyn, at least for the foreseeable future.
     
  18. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

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    That these BCR calculations are so damaging to possible electrification projects, causes me to wonder how the extensive electrification I observe, when I travel on the mainland, even on rural lines, was ever justified. I am sure that demand on the Bath to Westbury line (and indeed that from Bristol to Bath) is suppressed at present, due to inadequate performance and poor capacity. This makes we wonder whether the BCR contains any component of increased business. I am certain that sparks would increase patronage substantially.
     
  19. jyte

    jyte Member

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    The sparks effect is well recorded.

    Sod that, the supply effect is well recorded. If you create the supply for something, you often create the demand for it. Sure there's a few high-ish profile exceptions (M6-toll is one) but generally the availability of something creates demand for it.
     
  20. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

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    Indeed. Slightly OT but when the Northern Sparks report was done most of the weighting was given to increased economic prosperity
     
  21. Chris125

    Chris125 Established Member

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    Newbury-Bedwyn was costed at around £75m, Westbury £286m - the report can be found here

    The idea that using 387s could fund this 'in no time' seems fanciful, especially with the disruption, delays and spiralling costs plaguing other schemes.
     
  22. jyte

    jyte Member

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    ooof... 0.22/1 C/B for option 4 (westbury, froome, quarries and diversion)...
     
  23. Pete_uk

    Pete_uk Member

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    Would lighter knitting and masts reduce the cost by any worthwhile amount?
     
  24. JN114

    JN114 Member

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    Perhaps but it would reduce resilience and possibly even linespeed - depending on how lightweight you went....
     
  25. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Despite being very visible I doubt the amount of metal in the kit makes more than a few percent difference to the scheme. And even if you halved the cost of the OLE, feeders, signalling, structures, design, TOC compensation and everything else (from the original figures which have now drastically increased) the BCR would only go from 0.22 to 0.44 which is still way below what the government will pay for.
     
  26. 317 forever

    317 forever Member

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    I have seen that the stopping services between Paddington & Reading will be cut from 4 to 2 trains an hour over Easter due to engineering works at Paddington. I hope these remaining Paddington - Didcot trains are all 387s and not 165/66s.
     
  27. spark001uk

    spark001uk Established Member

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    London Overground extending down to the B&H are they? Interesting. ;)
     
  28. superkev

    superkev Member

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    Now that Paddington Didcot seems to be live what's the next bit likely to be energised and when?
    K
     
  29. JN114

    JN114 Member

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    Didcot to Cardiff next Christmas.
     
  30. Thatcham Xing

    Thatcham Xing Member

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    Reading to Newbury about the same time AFAIK. Have read elsewhere that the juice should be ready to go on in September. Still quite a bit to do if that's the case (mainly at Newbury itself).
     

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