Great Western franchise to be broken up?

[Woody]

The Times reports:

e "Grayling plot to split Great Western lines".

Transport secretary Chris Grayling is toying with breaking up one of Britain’s biggest rail franchises as he tries to introduce more competition in the industry.

His officials are exploring the possibility of splitting Great Western, which links London, south Wales, Devon and Cornwall, when the deal to run it ends in three years.

The Plymouth Herald also carries the same story:

Chris Grayling, the Transport Secretary is said to be considering splitting Great Western when the franchise comes up for renewal in 2020.
Under the new structure, a separate franchise would be created to operate trains from Devon and Cornwall on the Great Western line into London.

 

[TheEdge]

Excellent idea, lets make everything even more disjointed...

 

[Sleepy]

Let's reverse the policy of branch lines belonging to the main line TOC !! :roll: I know they could call it Wessex Trains Do the DfT never learn from mistakes ? I will laugh my head off if First win West Coast franchise .........hock:

 

[DT611]

sounds like another solution looking for a problem. But it's okay, it will bring no competition or at least competition to a number so small that there would be no point in terms of what extra this idea might cost and what problems it might bring to an operation that looks from the outside to be working well.

 

[the sniper]

Oh yes please, more inefficiency! We'll need more DOO to pay for the replication of back office functions in this new TOC though. Money well saved to be spent on important things the public really value, like funding additional Delay Attribution, Rostering, Planning, HR and Management teams... :roll:

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would it be worth the North Downs Line moving over to SWTs given how large a part of it is in SWT's territory?

 

[Johncleesefan]

Great! There's goes any last shred of hope for driver harmonization

 

[Mag_seven]

Would it be worth the North Downs Line moving over to SWTs given how large a part of it is in SWT's territory?

If memory serves me right in the run up to privatisation it was removed from the proposed "South West Trains" franchise because a certain businessman said he would not bid for that franchise if it was included.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It is to stop the Lib-Dems making any sort of comeback in the peninsula. Well anyone, it is about votes, not trains.

 

[Envoy]

You would only get true competition if two or more train companies were operating on the same route without colluding to fix prices. Perhaps the nearest we get to that is the East Coast Mainline between KGX & YRK or YRK & EDB?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's been on the cards for some time, knocked back because of the major upgrades going on at the London end.
I thought people generally liked the idea of Wessex Trains and regretted folding them into GWR? You can't have it both ways.
Don't forget there is a devolution agenda as in Rail North/WM Rail etc.
It might just mean putting locals in charge of managing the business unit, not splitting the formal franchise.
By "Devon and Cornwall" I expect they mean B&H route services really.
It might also affect XC and services west of Bristol.

I'd also have thought the DfT might reinvent Thames Trains for the TV/Cotswold services.
"One TOC per London terminal" was only ever half a policy, and was never applied to Euston or King's Cross.

It's also policy to have smaller and less complex franchises to reduce the costs of bidding and of potentially bailing out failures, though none has been invented yet.
Anyway, these things are often aired but come to nothing, when the free marketeers collide with the economists in the Treasury.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would only get true competition if two or more train companies were operating on the same route without colluding to fix prices. Perhaps the nearest we get to that is the East Coast Mainline between KGX & YRK or YRK & EDB?

On-rail competition is irrelevant - the number it fights over is tiny. The competition is the car.

 

[AM9]

Might solve the perennial problem of Reading commuters cluttering up inter-city services as is done on the WCML and ECML.

 

[KTHV]

Looks like one of Grayling's mates (probably Wilkinson the lobbyist) has bent his ear telling him one of his mates is a bit short of cash...

 

[SF-02]

Can't split Southeastern he says as its upheavel. Then wants to split GWR.

Local control only works if local authorities can raise funding and have power. They cant and won't be allowed to by Westminster. The sooner Grayling is out the better. His brief time as Justice Minister saw cut backs to prisons that the govt have announced will cost £1.3 billion to now rectify.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was the Wessex Trains basically any route that GWR currently don't use an HST on?

 

[SteveP29]

create more competition by STILL only having two train companies running trains on the lines (and both charging the same price)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was the Wessex Trains basically any route that GWR currently don't use an HST on?

http://web.archive.org/web/20051205015455/http://www.wessextrains.co.uk/uploads/documents/354.pdf

Services rather than routes (they ran along with HSTs on many routes).
Also on the Midland main line from Great Malvern/Worcester/Gloucester into Bristol and on to Taunton, secondary to XC and their HST/22x.

 

[47802]

Well the idea of a local Devon and Cornwall franchise seems to have been mooted for while, throw in the intercity services to the south west as well would presumably make it a much less subsidised franchise, and with South West services supposedly to be concentrated on the B&H route I guess its a reasonably easy split to make.

I guess you could split the AT300's from the IEP's but I think some AT300's will work other services besides the South West so maybe you would either have to split the AT300 fleet or use it on common pool basis.

 

[SA_900]

An excellent development. Well done Mr Grayling!

 

[meridian2]

You would only get true competition if two or more train companies were operating on the same route without colluding to fix prices. Perhaps the nearest we get to that is the East Coast Mainline between KGX & YRK or YRK & EDB?

Absolutely. The current situation consists of a small number of railway professionals on a corporate merry go round, operating under flags, or in this case vinyls, of convenience. Competition is entirely notional.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its amusing the first thing people run to is the Transport Minister having an agenda or big money.

This is something the people, media and politicians of the South West have been campaigning for the last couple of years for (since the sea wall collapse and becoming temporarily a rail island) as they feel neglected within the existing Great Western franchise. They think that if they are hived off a franchise will be able to focus more intently on the local needs of the peninsula.

 

[HowardGWR]

An excellent development. Well done Mr Grayling!

This post would have been more interesting (well just interesting anyway) had you taken the trouble to tell us why.

 

[SA_900]

This post would have been more interesting (well just interesting anyway) had you taken the trouble to tell us why.

We all have our biases

 

[43074]

Its amusing the first thing people run to is the Transport Minister having an agenda or big money.

This is something the people, media and politicians of the South West have been campaigning for the last couple of years for (since the sea wall collapse and becoming temporarily a rail island) as they feel neglected within the existing Great Western franchise. They think that if they are hived off a franchise will be able to focus more intently on the local needs of the peninsula.

The focus would be there but I doubt the money would be, better for everyone if they remain as part of the GWR franchise, any standalone franchise would just be a money sink given the routes such a franchise would include.

 

[pdeaves]

This is something the people, media and politicians of the South West have been campaigning for the last couple of years for (since the sea wall collapse and becoming temporarily a rail island).

Not according to the council person quoted in the Plymouth Herald article. It says they were more interested in an alternative route (carefully worded language meaning 'Okehampton-Tavistock'), not a whole separate franchise.

 

[tbtc]

If it were to be split into a separate franchise then which one would get the green "GWR" livery in the divorce settlement (since both the "Didcot" and the "B&H" sides would have a claim to it)?

I'm not sure about this. There's some argument that the current FGW is too big to attract competitive bids for, that you could focus more on different areas with smaller TOCs.

But then, I don't know how you'd split it. If the Bristol - Weymouth/ Southampton/ Portsmouth services go to a "Wessex" franchise then that leaves only a rump operation for local DMUs around Bristol (Weston, Severn Brach, Great Malvern). Operationally that may sit better with an adjacent franchise but the political complications of the Cardiff Bay dominated Wales & Borders may put pay to that.

Or, once you start carving it up, where do you stop? Bristol - Weymouth/ Southampton/ Portsmouth services may fit better with SWT...

It's been on the cards for some time, knocked back because of the major upgrades going on at the London end.
I thought people generally liked the idea of Wessex Trains and regretted folding them into GWR? You can't have it both ways.
Don't forget there is a devolution agenda as in Rail North/WM Rail etc.
It might just mean putting locals in charge of managing the business unit, not splitting the formal franchise.
By "Devon and Cornwall" I expect they mean B&H route services really.
It might also affect XC and services west of Bristol.

I'd also have thought the DfT might reinvent Thames Trains for the TV/Cotswold services.
"One TOC per London terminal" was only ever half a policy, and was never applied to Euston or King's Cross.

It's also policy to have smaller and less complex franchises to reduce the costs of bidding and of potentially bailing out failures, though none has been invented yet.
Anyway, these things are often aired but come to nothing, when the free marketeers collide with the economists in the Treasury.

Good points.

Local control only works if local authorities can raise funding and have power. They cant and won't be allowed to by Westminster

The great problem with the nice-sounding George Osborne approach to "devolution" - giving spending decisions to local levels sounds positive but becomes meaningless if they just have the same budget to play with and no scope to raise funds/ borrow.

If you want to devolve then you have to do it properly.

So, I guess my opinion of this move depends on whether there's new money/ new trains.

Was the Wessex Trains basically any route that GWR currently don't use an HST on?

GWR used to be First Great Western, Thames Trains and parts of Wales & West.

Thames Trains was fairly straightforward - I can't remember them operating anything other than 165s and 166s - so the Thames Valley branches, Redhill, Oxford slows etc. Plus a short lived Bristol - Oxford service.

Wales & West ran the local stuff around Bristol plus the Devon/ Cornwall branches (inc Great Malvern, Weymouth, Portsmouth) and a token service to Waterloo - whilst enthusiasts remember Central Trains as having some strange long distance services, W&W had a few too like Penzance to Portsmouth and west Wales to Waterloo.

Did First Great Western run anything other than HSTs, Sleepers and 180s (before it became "Greater Western"?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Talk about history reversing itself..

 

[yorksrob]

Not according to the council person quoted in the Plymouth Herald article. It says they were more interested in an alternative route (carefully worded language meaning 'Okehampton-Tavistock'), not a whole separate franchise.

Exactly. Having seen various articles and opinion pieces and followed the peninsular rail task force, the focus has been very much on physical improvements, rather than tinkering with the franchise. This proposal seems to be more central Government inspired.

 

[47802]

If it were to be split into a separate franchise then which one would get the green "GWR" livery in the divorce settlement (since both the "Didcot" and the "B&H" sides would have a claim to it)?

I'm not sure about this. There's some argument that the current FGW is too big to attract competitive bids for, that you could focus more on different areas with smaller TOCs.

But then, I don't know how you'd split it. If the Bristol - Weymouth/ Southampton/ Portsmouth services go to a "Wessex" franchise then that leaves only a rump operation for local DMUs around Bristol (Weston, Severn Brach, Great Malvern). Operationally that may sit better with an adjacent franchise but the political complications of the Cardiff Bay dominated Wales & Borders may put pay to that.

Or, once you start carving it up, where do you stop? Bristol - Weymouth/ Southampton/ Portsmouth services may fit better with SWT...



Good points.



The great problem with the nice-sounding George Osborne approach to "devolution" - giving spending decisions to local levels sounds positive but becomes meaningless if they just have the same budget to play with and no scope to raise funds/ borrow.

If you want to devolve then you have to do it properly.

So, I guess my opinion of this move depends on whether there's new money/ new trains.



GWR used to be First Great Western, Thames Trains and parts of Wales & West.

Thames Trains was fairly straightforward - I can't remember them operating anything other than 165s and 166s - so the Thames Valley branches, Redhill, Oxford slows etc. Plus a short lived Bristol - Oxford service.

Wales & West ran the local stuff around Bristol plus the Devon/ Cornwall branches (inc Great Malvern, Weymouth, Portsmouth) and a token service to Waterloo - whilst enthusiasts remember Central Trains as having some strange long distance services, W&W had a few too like Penzance to Portsmouth and west Wales to Waterloo.

Did First Great Western run anything other than HSTs, Sleepers and 180s (before it became "Greater Western"?

I wouldn't have thought it was that difficult all Intercity Services via the B&H route plus Local services beyond Taunton and probably the stopper services which go up to Bristol from Exeter etc plus the sleeper.

People seem to be making ref to the split of the old Wessex franchise which I suspect is fairly irrelevant.