Great Western Super Express Trains (aka IEP) trains to not have a hot buffet?

[Rapidash]

Then how does it work on East Coast and Cross Country? Both run busy services and both have trolleys...

The XC ones can be bit of a nightmare when there's frequent stopping. The ones out of Paignton have it going through just before getting into Newton Abbot, so there's usually a mad dash to the other end of the carriage to avoid being trapped.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When they're rammed full of passengers will it really make much difference if its a buffet or trolley service?

 

[Class 170101]

I raise it because didn't it nearly lead to an industrial dispute?

 

[ainsworth74]

Do East Coast HST services have a trolley? Or is it just the mk4?

As above both East Coast and CrossCountry HSTs have trolleys.

The XC ones can be bit of a nightmare when there's frequent stopping. The ones out of Paignton have it going through just before getting into Newton Abbot, so there's usually a mad dash to the other end of the carriage to avoid being trapped.

Yeah that's happened to me once or twice at the other end of the route on both XC and EC. I suspect it might have more to do with the member of staff getting caught out than an inherent issue with HSTs and trolleys

 

[F Great Eastern]

Do you reckon Ben Rule's middle name is Dave so he's Ben D Rule

 

[HowardGWR]

We have trolleys on the SWT Exeter Waterloo service (2 hours 45* min with stops at every farmyard) and they work perfectly.

*Axminster to Waterloo time

 

[PhilipW]

So when 5-car Bi-Mode IEPs run as double sets on the Bristol run (as some will have to be as there aren't enough 9-car Electrics to cater for all South Wales and Bristol journies) I presume this means 2 kitchens and 2 trollies.

Hmm, interesting.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I don't see why it has to be a choice between buffets OR trolleys. Having a trolley going round when there is the staff available and the train's not crowded enough will still get the extra revenue from the people who wouldn't have walked to the buffet to buy something. But the buffet could be always there as a reliable baseline.

What I've noticed on some recent travels in Germany is that the buffet staff work the train for its whole journey (or a large part of it), but they are supplemented by roving trolley staff who enter and leave the train at various stations along the way, selling a smaller selection of food and drink than you can get from the buffet. I would assume they travel back and forward over the same patch, so get familiar with where the stops are and can time things well so they're not in the way coming up to a stop and so on.

 

[Kite159]

The XC ones can be bit of a nightmare when there's frequent stopping. The ones out of Paignton have it going through just before getting into Newton Abbot, so there's usually a mad dash to the other end of the carriage to avoid being trapped.

The good old trolley block when it rolls into the front car of a 159, no way to escape as the front door is locked out of use

 

[fgwrich]

We have trolleys on the SWT Exeter Waterloo service (2 hours 45* min with stops at every farmyard) and they work perfectly.

*Axminster to Waterloo time

As a frequent user of the line as well, I'm actually going to in part disagree with you. On the majority of the westbound services I've used, the trolley - if it makes it through - always comes off at Axminster. Fine if your going as far as there, but what if your getting on there or stations westwards? Some of them have made it through, others have not been able to, and some just didn't turn up at all - the peril of a Trolley service over say a Mini Buffet. Even coming out of Waterloo, when the service is busy they suffer again because they become trapped - one peak service I used last summer the trolley was stuck behind FC, and wouldn't have been able to move forward until at least Basingstoke (where I got off) or Andover. Sometimes it works, others it doesn't.

One thing that's changed these days is the amount of tech being carried. If I've got a couple of laptops and a tablet on me, I would rather a trolley and may well not bother at all if there isn't one, as I won't be leaving them unattended (and indeed would get in trouble if my work laptop was nicked in such circumstances).

Possibly, possibly not. I have used HSTs plenty of times and either hidden my phone when on charge or put it in my bag or taken it with me. But even on the HSTs I was on last Saturday, people to my side or in front of me we're happy to leave their laptops or IPads out while popping off to the buffet car.

Wasn't the trolley abandoned on HSTs because it couldn't get through the train and also that the trolley's design when combined with HSTs actually caused incidents and accidents to staff?

Can't see it being any different with IEP / SET.

Indeed, the cancellation of that trail led to the creation of the Mini Buffets - despite having removed a toilet from nearly each Mk3 to become a stores cupboard. Rather a shame we can't at least have a Mini Buffet on the IEPs, even a kitchen for First and Mini Buffet for standard would be a much better idea than this ridiculous Kitchen for FC, and potential trolley for standard. And how does the trolley set up work on 2 IEPs coupled together? 2 lots of trolley staff in Each IEP seems a rather wasteful way to do things to me, but then again we seem to have become obsessed with Spliting and joining again. I'm also interested to understand how they will send this trolley through a very busy or packed IEP... And I wouldn't like to be the one having to haul a trolley up and down and over all those internal ramps over each engine in each car of each SET.

As to the reasons why VTEC seem to have got their way - I have a strong feeling that Politics has come into this - VT as we know like to get their way and will do so at almost any cost, they say their unhappy that their IEP doesn't have an on board shop, they complain. First - going out of their way to continue running the franchise for another 4 years faces up to as a do as your told DfT in another acceptance to keep the franchise. I would bet too that these extra West Country (Any chances of Pullman Dining going?), while being privately funded, will also be "discounted" to keep Hitachi's production line open for a little longer... Cynical maybe, but just like the garlic in my Kiev tonight, something seems to be smelling pretty obvious.

Of course any fictional (and I'm afraid having seen nothing of this survey am going to believe that it is a piece of fiction) doesn't give you the option of the standard of catering you get either. Do you want a Express Cafe with freshly ground coffee, and some time to chose what you want from the counter... A Travelling Chef option, and or Express Cafe and Pullman Dining for both first and standard. Or do you want a mini buffet allowing some hot food to be grilled / cooked, freshly ground coffee, giving some of the current service provisions or just a trolley with a limited range of options that may get through the train if not full, may contain some of the options or may have run out. Instead, and thanks to the DfTs myrad of restrictional options, you either get Trolley for all, or Kitchen for First and Trolley for standard with optional microwaved food. Backward step? Of course. But what does Marsham Street know about train travel comfort?

 

[Clip]

I can understand the moaning about trolleys not being a good substitute here however if they move to how the airlines do their food and can bring it to you on a trolley then why not? As someone said space is going to be at a premium.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The DfT closed down the design for the GW sets way before the ECML sets. That's why VT could get the variation. All the EC franchise bidders had far more scope to change things around.

It would have been fun if FG had won the EC franchise and operated buffet cars on one line but no buffet cars on the other (GW)!

Having said that, the kitchen on these things look well capable and if GW don't try again to use trolleys that Hercules would have trouble moving, they should be able to offer a decent service for Standard. Might mean they have to look at their on board staffing levels so they can cover the train properly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can understand the moaning about trolleys not being a good substitute here however if they move to how the airlines do their food and can bring it to you on a trolley then why not?

I think the problem is that they can't do trolleys the way airlines do them. On a plane everyone is sitting down, all the luggage is in the hold, and the plane doesn't keep stopping to let more people on.

It'll go the same way as it has on XC. When it's quiet and there's a long way between stations it works. If the train is busy, or the stations are frequent, then it doesn't. And if we're talking about five-carriage trains, chances are they're going to be busy.

 

[Greenback]

I think the problem is that they can't do trolleys the way airlines do them. On a plane everyone is sitting down, all the luggage is in the hold, and the plane doesn't keep stopping to let more people on.

It'll go the same way as it has on XC. When it's quiet and there's a long way between stations it works. If the train is busy, or the stations are frequent, then it doesn't. And if we're talking about five-carriage trains, chances are they're going to be busy.

I agree. People have more chance of fighting their way through to a buffet on a busy train than a trolley has.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I agree. People have more chance of fighting their way through to a buffet on a busy train than a trolley has.

On XC they tend to just give up and run it like a buffet from the catering point (coach F on a 220/221, coach B on a HST) anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

On XC they tend to just give up and run it like a buffet from the catering point (coach F on a 220/221, coach B on a HST) anyway.

When XC replaced the shop with a trolley, what was the RMT's response? I don't remember any major action?

 

[Tetchytyke]

When XC replaced the shop with a trolley, what was the RMT's response? I don't remember any major action?

There was quite a lot of huffing and puffing- XC crews I've spoken to still hate the trolleys five years on- but nobody lost their job or got downgraded so I think they just got on with it.

There were more complaints when EMT closed the buffet counters on weekdays and gave the trolley contract to Rail Gourmet, but again nobody lost their jobs so people got on with it in the end.

 

[Greenback]

The RMT would have made more of an issue of the change if there had been jobs at stake. I'd like to know what their response is to FGW's proposals, though.

 

[LexyBoy]

Surely everyone buys their food from the multitudinous outlets at stations these days? The obvious solution is thus to do away with buffet and trolley and simply have a scheduled luncheon stop like in the good old days.

On a related note, I'm amused by XC's posters advertising "I hope know there will be food on board and that I won't have to go far it will be delivered to my seat" ... with the smallprint "available on selected services, subject to alteration etc etc". In other words, there might be food, or not.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Is this going to affect the Pullman Dining aswell, or is this just the buffet shop thing that you can visit to buy drinks and lighter things to eat?
Really want to try the Pullman Dining at some point, but sadly can't really justify the cost atm. But don't want to miss out if it is to be scrapped when the IEP's come in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely everyone buys their food from the multitudinous outlets at stations these days? The obvious solution is thus to do away with buffet and trolley and simply have a scheduled luncheon stop like in the good old days.

With frequent services you can schedule one in yourself. I tend to on longer journeys.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is this going to affect the Pullman Dining aswell, or is this just the buffet shop thing that you can visit to buy drinks and lighter things to eat?

A full kitchen is being provided in the first class driving vehicle.

 

[fgwrich]

A full kitchen is being provided in the first class driving vehicle.

But how will the Pullman Dining set up be ran though? With, as being regulary mentioned space being at a premium on the 5 cars, I can't imagine the First Class end being changed to Pullman only forcing out non dining FC passengers, while I can't imagine 1 or even half of a standard class coach being turned into the restaurant either. And if a Pullman set up is running will that in turn mean no trolley facilities for those in standard?

 

[ainsworth74]

Why will Pullman Dining happen on a five-car set? There are longer sets or even perhaps two five-car sets together with one operating Pullman Dining from it's kitchen and the other offering the usual first class accommodation. Why would Pullman Dining prevent the operation of a trolley? East Coast used to manage a trolley and a restaurant service...

 

[jimm]

But how will the Pullman Dining set up be ran though? With, as being regulary mentioned space being at a premium on the 5 cars, I can't imagine the First Class end being changed to Pullman only forcing out non dining FC passengers, while I can't imagine 1 or even half of a standard class coach being turned into the restaurant either. And if a Pullman set up is running will that in turn mean no trolley facilities for those in standard?

I'd be very surprised if any GW Pullman duty would be covered by a five-car set given the times they operate now and would be likely to in future, assuming the service continues in a similar vein after the HSTs disappear. All Pullmans are on heavily loaded peak workings in at least one direction, so would seem obvious jobs to allocate nine-car sets to anyway.

 

[Be3G]

It's certainly sad to see the significant decline in food offerings on FGW (Pullman aside). Most of my trips on that line have been of the longest possible variety (London to the far end of Cornwall), and I've nearly always purchased some form of hot food on board.

When the Travelling Chef was available I'd always make use of it, and when it wasn't, I'd at least buy one of the heat-to-eat roll-type products or, if travelling in the morning, a porridge pot. I suppose the latter could be sold from a trolley though I've never seen them – and even if they were, I'm not sure the trolley's water would be hot enough to be of much use (porridge really needs hot water to cook properly).

 

[455driver]

Deleted.

 

[Aldaniti]

The InterCity railway has been heading slowly for the Ryanair/Easyjet type model of operation for some years. FGW are simply catching up with the others and are probably hoping that with yet another re-branding, passengers won't notice the move downmarket. We can moan all we like but the IC railway is now about mass transit only, reducing toilets and buffets to cram as many poor sods in as possible. The only respite is if you can get a sensibly priced first class ticket. I used to travel tens of thousands of miles a year by train both on business and for pleasure. I can now count my annual rail journeys on one hand.

 

[Greenback]

The InterCity railway has been heading slowly for the Ryanair/Easyjet type model of operation for some years. FGW are simply catching up with the others and are probably hoping that with yet another re-branding, passengers won't notice the move downmarket. We can moan all we like but the IC railway is now about mass transit only, reducing toilets and buffets to cram as many poor sods in as possible. The only respite is if you can get a sensibly priced first class ticket. I used to travel tens of thousands of miles a year by train both on business and for pleasure. I can now count my annual rail journeys on one hand.

Unfortunately, I think you're right about the former Inter City routes being downgraded in quality. I find journeys on FGW far less comfortable than they used to be, space is more limited and I personally find the seats and lighting to be less to my taste than they were in the 1990's.

I think that there are many reasons for this. Airlines too have followed the low cost carrier model, it seems as though passengers don't want frills, especially if they think they will never use them. I reckon [proper catering facilities come sunder that, and the loss of these has also been down to lifestyle changes, where we all eat more casually these days. The railways have been slow to adapt to this, with the result that those who do want refreshments on the train bring their sandwiches and snacks with them.

As an aside here I remember reading railway magazines 25 years ago with editorials calling for a change in catering style, with more light meal and hot snack options and an end to the 'full three course meal or nothing' concept in restaurant cars at the time. Obviously, any changes that were made were too late and too ineffective to prevent the decline in restaurant cars.

I still use the trains a lot though. I can just about tolerate three hours in standard on an FGW HST, which at least gets me to Reading and London. I don't know how I'd feel about a trip from London to Penzance, though!

I will avoid Voyagers as far as possible, yet I enjoy travelling on a 175 and a 185. Strangely, or perhaps it's not that strange at all, these units are not found on the traditional former IC routes.

 

[Dave1987]

Don't the bi-modes have a ramp up from the vestibule into the coach due to the high floors? The will make things interesting for the trolley. Just get the feeling that the DFT we're going after the headline figure of 18% more seating and to hell with anything else.