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Greater Anglia 2019 - What could possibly go wrong?

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RailWonderer

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Ireland? Admittedly I don't know how difficult things are over there but the DMU crisis here is bad enough without sending units unnecessarily overseas (even if not very far overseas) - I'll be very disappointed if that happens.
Ireland uses Irish gauge - Wider than what the UK and Europe uses so the wheels on UK stock couldn't physically fit on Irish rails.

The plan would then be to use the 156s and the 170s on the local services, use the bi-mode FLIRTS onto the commuter lines, negotiate an option to further extend the 360 and 379 fleets by a further period as an insurance policy and also negotiate something similar for the Class 321s that were compliant.
I can see, if what you say happens, a major free for all at Liverpool Street at the shoulder peaks and high peaks with only one set of doors in each FLIRT coach and 12 cars going down to 8 and 8 to 4. If the 3 car FLIRTS are used to they can double or triple up and help a few diagrams. Thing is, only 30 or so 321s are renatus and the other 70 are still un refurbished, so 38 755s total doesn't make up for 70. Tbh it would be interesting if the PRM wasn't extended but the sensible thing to do would be to extend it.
 
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samuelmorris

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It's a difficult situation to resolve - you can't exactly penalise the TOCs as most of them are already barely breaking even as it is (or not even that in the case of GA) but if you let them off completely, PRM will never be achieved.
 

F Great Eastern

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Ireland? Admittedly I don't know how difficult things are over there but the DMU crisis here is bad enough without sending units unnecessarily overseas (even if not very far overseas) - I'll be very disappointed if that happens.

Ireland's National Transport Authority (NTA) approached all of the ROSCOS in the UK about hiring some rolling stock to add extra capacity as it's likely that any new build trains will not be in service until 2023/2024 and there is a pressing demand for additional rolling stock as many services are overcrowded and because of serious issues with Alstom EMU and DMU stock built around the year 2000, almost 40 carriages are not going to operate any further services.

Meanwhile stock on DART, Dublin Commuter and Intercity services is starting to get very overcrowded, despite the fact 10 long term out of use DART carriages with serious issues that could be repaired but were very expensive to do so, were recently repaired having not turned a wheel in years and 2x7 car MK4 sets were returned to service having been stored for a while. Everything is now in service aside from the Alstom stock which was so unreliable that it has been decided not to return it to service because it would represent poor value for money for units which made the 175/180 fleets look reliable.

The NTA approached the rolling stock companies in the UK. Porterbook offered 8x 3 car Class 170s and 4x 2 car class 170s, Eversholt offered them 22x 3 car 185 units and the other ROSCOS offered various end of life DMU units, including pacers and class 153 and class 156 units. The NTA is apparently willing to sign longer term deals than UK TOCs would offer so this is meant to be attractive to the ROSCOS who don't want their assets sitting idle in 2020/2021.
Are all the 156s fully PRM compliant now? There'll also be some 153s to displace presumably.

From what I was told the 156s are basically there, any issues that may need to be corrected are minor and can be done without too much trouble so there is no serious issues here.

However the Class 153s will have to be replaced and it's likely (if all 170s are kept) you'll see some 156s replace the 153s, 2 car 170s replace some of the displaced 156s, some of the 3 car 170s to replace the displaced 2 cars and then a small number of FLIRTs on the local lines. I cannot see that number being anywhere near as high as 9 at first. Probably 4-5 is more likely as they're not going to give a net increase of 4 DMUs and increased number of spare units and bigger capacity ones at that on the local lines at a time when the commuter lines are having massive fleet cuts.
Even with the above, 5 153s will need to be covered for, leaving you with 33 Flirts left over. If the 379s are fully displaced on StanEx by 745s before the deadline (even that's going to be tight), you have 114 EMUs left over (9 of which being 3-car Flirts they could presumably use for branch lines), to replace the current 182-strong non-StanEx fleet. Even dropping every 12-car peak service down to 8 isn't going to cover a shortfall of that size, they'll have to take quite a few services out of the peak timetable as well. If GA were the only TOC in this sort of predicament I would predict dark times ahead but as it stands, I can't see that level of chaos being permitted.

When I made a similar point I was essentially told that there will be a fair number of services dropping from 8 car to 4 car at peak time as well and that also there is going to be declassification of First Class from 2020 which should also help with this. All in all though it looks an absolute dogs dinner and any mitigation attempts they can make are going to simply mean it's going to be pretty horrific rather than very horrific, but people I have spoke to believe that whether an exemption is given will depend on who is in government.

There's a belief in the industry that if Labour were to get into power they would certainly not give an exemption, since if the crisis was to happen up and down the country it would be used as a stick to beat the industry with and hammer home the bid to renationalise the railways.

I've posted a seperate thread about the Irish link here, to avoid getting this one too bogged down.
 
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Jonny

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There's a belief in the industry that if Labour were to get into power they would certainly not give an exemption, since if the crisis was to happen up and down the country it would be used as a stick to beat the industry with and hammer home the bid to renationalise the railways.

That I could well believe, although people would see through that dirty trick. They would then be remembered as the ones that shut the railway down.
 

samuelmorris

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Yeah, somehow SWT managed to get the 458s to perform very reliably but all the other Alstom stock seems to have remained quite poor for the duration - 180s maybe a special case as it's unusual for 125mph DMUs to be diesel-hydraulic but no real excuses for the rest.
The 'longer term deals more attractive' option is one of the few things nationalisation has going for it. By suggesting you'll lease stock for 20 years or so, you should theoretically get good rates (let's ignore the 800s in that).

I suspect you're right about if Labour get in, they will want to demonstrate that privatisation is a failure. Doing so at clearly the expense of the travelling passenger though seems a bit unkind. I imagine it depends on what they actually intend to achieve. No point making life hell in 2020 if they can't get the private operators out until 2024, by which time the crises may well have abated.

F Great Eastern said:
You have to wonder if we'd be having this problem if they went with the rival bid from Siemens.
You wouldn't, I'm almost certain of that. However, you'd probably get 3+2 versions of the 700s and with those obtrusive window ducts, I'm not sure I'd want that really. It's possible they could have got Siemens to develop a unit with underfloor heating but that throws the 'there definitely wouldn't be this level of delay' into question. The 717s are only just finishing up now, they wouldn't have had new units with us much earlier than Jan-Feb even if they were largely unmodified from the 700s. With significant changes, they could well have been late too.

Would they not be better off talking to VivaRail?
60mph 230s down the ECML? Remember it's (for once) not the rural DMU routes that will be in crisis. It's the electrified mainline where all the grief would occur.
 

47421

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Little birdie has told me that there's now talks going on about extending the lease on the 170s on the condition that Transport for Wales can get hold of some stock from elsewhere to replace most of them in the short term

This was on the basis of Transport for Wales getting class 170s from Porterbrook which looked like it could be possible. However there is now a rival bid from Irish Rail who are eyeing up both the 170s from Porterbrook and the 185s from Eversholt and look to make a decision in early January.

The plan would then be to use the 156s and the 170s on the local services, use the bi-mode FLIRTS onto the commuter lines, negotiate an option to further extend the 360 and 379 fleets by a further period as an insurance policy and also negotiate something similar for the Class 321s that were compliant.

However as has been stated, even if they keep on the 170s and 156s on the local lines to free up the FLIRTS there will still be a large shortfall. This I'm told will be made up in part by increase the intensity in which the trains are used, increasing the percentage of a fleet in use at peak time and reforming all existing EMUs to a maximum of 8 carriages and a reduction in some 8 car services to 4 car services.

In reality though the government are going to have to grant some exceptions because otherwise the rail service is going to fall through the floor overnight at the end of 2019.


Wowzers. What is working assumption on number of 720s available for service Jan 2020? If above does come to pass the game is up for the franchise surely? Abellio clearly (over)bid on the basis of increasing revenue by releasing pent up demand by adding lots of extra seats with the new high capacity 720s. In fact I am sure at one time the publicity said "every train will be longer". If instead of lots of extra seats they end up reducing capacity significantly then revenue will be massively off. No doubt there will be a claim against Bombardier but that will probably be capped. What a mess. Lets hope the 720 situation is not too bad, although the precedent of the 345, which were on time and on budget until the exCEO claimed on radio 4 they were 18 months late, is not a very happy one.
 

F Great Eastern

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That was on assumption that come 1st January 2020 there are no 720s in service. If there are a handful then the numbers will look slightly better, but even if they have 10 in service there will still be serious shortfalls of capacity. I was talking the almost worst case scenario - If all the 170s were lost and the 156s were kept, then it would be extremely grave as you're looking at the 360s, 379s and the compliant 317/321 stock, you're going to be a significant 3 figure sum of carriages short.

However Greater Anglia and Bombardier are still seemingly confident of getting more than that in service by January and they are opening further production lines to ensure that enough 720s are delivered in time. However judging by the issues that there seems to be with other Aventra fleets, even if they get them delivered, getting them operational and reliable enough in service is going to not be easy.

Lets hope Bombardier turn it around and surprise us with how many vehicles they get operational by January 2020. Since pretty much the whole franchise will suffer to some degree if they don't unless the DFT decide to put back PRM requirements by a year or so.
 
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samuelmorris

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Wowzers. What is working assumption on number of 720s available for service Jan 2020? If above does come to pass the game is up for the franchise surely? Abellio clearly (over)bid on the basis of increasing revenue by releasing pent up demand by adding lots of extra seats with the new high capacity 720s. In fact I am sure at one time the publicity said "every train will be longer". If instead of lots of extra seats they end up reducing capacity significantly then revenue will be massively off. No doubt there will be a claim against Bombardier but that will probably be capped. What a mess. Lets hope the 720 situation is not too bad, although the precedent of the 345, which were on time and on budget until the exCEO claimed on radio 4 they were 18 months late, is not a very happy one.
Working assumption? I've no idea. My expectation is anywhere between 0 and 10, I don't see it being any greater than 10, and that is only if there are absolutely no mishaps with their testing and introduction across the entire GE/WA electrified network, which there's quite a lot of. I don't think the 720 has even been seen outside testing at Derby yet to my knowledge, so it has to do that, then testing at speed, then it's got to come over here and do some basic testing before mileage accumulation in readiness for acceptance by the TOC and driver training. For there to be as many as 10 units in service by the end of the year, they'll have to get all that done before, say, October. Do you think that's likely to happen in 9-10 months? It seems pretty doubtful to me. I have no desire to see my local franchise go wrong but that's how I see things at present.

Comparing the 720s to 345s is muddying the waters a bit - the real catastrophe at Crossrail is not really the fault of the train itself at all, it's the combined failings of the base infrastructure (the Crossrail half) and the systems integration between the trains and the signalling system. Now it does appear Bombardier are the guilty party for a lot of that, but the complex core signalling system blending three signalling types including ATO is not something Anglia have to deal with, so that simplifies things a lot. However, that isn't something London Overground have to deal with either and look at the chaos going on down there. The 710s allegedly have around 20 defects yet to be resolved before they can be introduced to passenger service. I'm sure that once they're resolved the 720s are unlikely to bring up many further issues, but until a resolution has been found for them, those issues would almost certainly affect the 720s too (excluding the ones concerning dual-voltage operation).

Long story short, the abysmal performance phase of the 345s is largely behind us now, the only big issues remaining there are unique to Crossrail, but the Aventra platform in general still has some major issues to overcome before any of the subsequent orders - 720s, 701s, 730s or 711s, can be delivered and unfortunately, London Overground with the 710s are now suffering the guinea pig effect there. Extra production lines won't help if the units you produce are unfit for service. Once the problems are solved, I'm sure the units will be produced at a very high rate, they could probably get the entire 720 and 701 fleets done in under 18 months (2 carriages a day). When that starts happening though, is still completely unknown.

Even if they do get numerous 720s in service by the end of 2019, don't think for a minute they'll work faultlessly out of the box. Remember the 345s were subjected to two full recalls from service and they weren't under the same pressure to get rid of old stock that Anglia are. As things stand, if the government go ahead with the PRM deadline on 31-Dec-19 then half the TOCs in the country will see service disruption comparable to the Thameslink programme, and possibly even longer-lasting. Northern, Scotrail, Transport for Wales, Greater Anglia, East Midlands and even Southern and Southeastern are all going to suffer, albeit some worse than others.
 

F Great Eastern

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And of course, our grave predictions and worries are based on the FLIRTS are going to not be too troublesome out of the box, if they have serious issues as well then Abellio could be heading towards not far shy of being half a fleet short.
 

RailWonderer

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You have to wonder if we'd be having this problem if they went with the rival bid from Siemens.
I've said this a few times, given Siemens are known for their reliability and build quality and bar for a few 717s finishing off they don't have any stock UK bound at Krefeld, so would've been faster and GA were wrong to jump the gun and head for Derby, unless technicalities like underfloor heating couldn't be met so easily. Still, I think Siemens could've made it work.

Yeah, somehow SWT managed to get the 458s to perform very reliably but all the other Alstom stock seems to have remained quite poor for the duration
So does that make the 390 pendolinos the only Alstom stock to have run mostly trouble free?

Wowzers. What is working assumption on number of 720s available for service Jan 2020?
We should run a poll and take votes on this, how many 720s in service by 1/1/2020. My bet is 10-15 units and I'm being nievely optimistic.
 

Class 170101

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Wonder how different driving a Class 345 would be to a Class 720 and whether the 9 carriage versions that currently have no work (and may not until the crossrail tunnel opens) could be used instead of non-compliant Class 321s.
 

306024

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Technically a 345 is a very different train, or to be more accurate, a very different computer. As for replacing 321s on the GE, an ‘interesting’ idea indeed, to be kind.
 

samuelmorris

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That aside, the idea of using a train with 350 seats, most of them longitudinal and no toilets on services to Ipswich / Clacton is pretty amusing.
 

Alfie1014

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Well your starter for 10, this year is a broken rail on the up main at Seven Kings that was reported just a few hours after the line reopened after being closed for 11 days and now a fatality reported in the same area blocking the remaining three lines. Level crossing damage at Brimsdown. Oh and the 0800 Stansted Airport to Liv St disappeared out of the schedules so didn’t run!

So a pretty normal day on GA so far!
 

HH

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Well the broken rail is for sure an NR issue and fatalities in that area are not uncommon unfortunately (and also usually attributed to NR).
 

47421

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That aside, the idea of using a train with 350 seats, most of them longitudinal and no toilets on services to Ipswich / Clacton is pretty amusing.
Yep but they might do for Southend / Braintree / Hertford East to LivSt and Stortford / Stratford. Also Stratford / Meridian Water, if that comes to pass, due May, anyone know if GA are planning for May start?
 

samuelmorris

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Off-peak services certainly, and probably also the peak time Braintree services. Peak time (which is when they'd need to be used for cover anyway) the 7-cars would be pretty inadequate versus 12x20m sets. I don't know what the current situation is with the 9-car units and being ready for mainline use.
 

JW16

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Well your starter for 10, this year is a broken rail on the up main at Seven Kings that was reported just a few hours after the line reopened after being closed for 11 days and now a fatality reported in the same area blocking the remaining three lines. Level crossing damage at Brimsdown. Oh and the 0800 Stansted Airport to Liv St disappeared out of the schedules so didn’t run!

So a pretty normal day on GA so far!
This where better and more detailed communication to passengers would help mitigate the fury seen this morning on GA's Twitter feed. Most comments alluded to the 11-day closure for maintenance only to have a track defect on the first morning back in action. But what was the maintenance being undertaken over Christmas? If it was to overhead wires at Forest Gate, then a track defect at Seven Kings would possibly be a bit easier to accept.
 

Wivenswold

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From my own experience of giving railway passengers bad news is that you can go into as much detail as you want, most will still mutter "shambles" at you (or worse, obviously) when you've finished telling them. They deserve better of course, but the same could be said of pretty much everything that Westminster has responsibility for.

Things won't change until we have a Government that is honest, accepts the system's deficiencies and instigates a proper review into how the railways can best serve the people. Looking towards Westminster, I'm not seeing any chance of that from either side of the house any time soon. Privatisation or Nationalisation won't fix it, it's bigger than that.
 

LAX54

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Well your starter for 10, this year is a broken rail on the up main at Seven Kings that was reported just a few hours after the line reopened after being closed for 11 days and now a fatality reported in the same area blocking the remaining three lines. Level crossing damage at Brimsdown. Oh and the 0800 Stansted Airport to Liv St disappeared out of the schedules so didn’t run!

So a pretty normal day on GA so far!

Don't think it was a broken rail though, but some other defect, and although the line was shut for OHL renewal and CROSSRAIL construction, do we know if they were working anywhere near where the defect was ?
 

HH

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Don't think it was a broken rail though, but some other defect, and although the line was shut for OHL renewal and CROSSRAIL construction, do we know if they were working anywhere near where the defect was ?
We know they were working in that general area, but not whether it was specifically where the problem happened, unless someone has better information.
 

colchesterken

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I think the railway needs to be more aware that they are there to provide a service to us rather than themselves
They never want to let us know what is going on. Today all day there have been cancellations on the Cambridge line
" Due to a problem under investigation " that can mean anything. why not say track broke signals failed so we can understand their problems
I notice they have stopped using silly "emergency services dealing with an incident " yesterday they said person hit by train we all know it happens
 
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