Greater anglia zone boundary 6 to Hertford East not available

[Starmill]

Was it previously the case that the GN 'Super Off-Peak' travelcards and returns (inc. A return to BZ6?) valid at the weekend were available from Hertford Stations? If so maybe AGA didn't like that - their Super Off-Peak is a different product (but it has to be called the same thing - thanks, 'simplification') and was that available from Herford East? Just a hypothesis, I don't really know.

 

[Hadders]

Is this some way of making it easier to create smartcard fares, by having less 'paper' fares to replicate?

I could understand that if it were true! Last week we had the following standard class fares between Hertford Stations and London Terminals:

7DS 66.20
SDR 16.70
CDR 12.00
OVN 11.00
CBA 8.50

This was far too complicated for the public to understand so we now have the following:

Hertford Stations - London Terminals:
7DS 66.20
OVN 11.00

Hertford East - Liverpool Street:
7DS 65.60
SDR 15.70
CDR 11.60
SOB 10.00

Hertford North - London Terminals:
SDR 16.70
CDR 12.00
CBA 8.50

So five fares which were straightforward and easy to understand have been replaced by nine, offering far less flexibility than what was available before.

To be fair a SVR from Hertford East to Liverpool Street has been added to the range costing £18.20

To me, the only real solution is to put these fares back into the system.

Agreed!

Was it previously the case that the GN 'Super Off-Peak' travelcards and returns (inc. A return to BZ6?) valid at the weekend were available from Hertford Stations? If so maybe AGA didn't like that - their Super Off-Peak is a different product (but it has to be called the same thing - thanks, 'simplification') and was that available from Herford East? Just a hypothesis, I don't really know.

The super off peak return (CBA) was introduced by FCC around five years ago iirc and was valid from either of the Hertford Stations.

However, simplification strikes again as from Hertford North you can get the super off peak day return (CBA) valid on weekends for £8.50 but from Hertford East there is now a super off peak day return (SOB) for £10 (valid to arrive at Liverpool Street after 1200 and not valid to return between 1558 and 1902).

Simple.....

 

[Starmill]

Lack of BZ6 - Hertford East is really annoying. Especially as BZ6 - Ware is still available!

 

[RJ]

Enfield Lock to Bayford is valid via Hertford. Thus a Boundary Zone 6 to Bayford ticket should be as well.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed, although one would need to be careful if planning to use this to travel to and from Hertford North owing to the inability to use the return portion before the outward portion, so it still doesn't give us the full flexibility we're missing. A BZ6 to Watton-at-Stone ticket would, but at an increased cost.

 

[Hadders]

I have had a response from Abellio.

Dear Hadders,

Thank you for your recent email.

I was sorry to read that you have been so affected by some of the changes to the tickets from Hertford Stations. I can really appreciate your frustrations as it does impact your journey.

These have been altered in preparation of Oyster Fares being available on this branch when London Overground take over. The inter-available fares are set and controlled by Great Northern, who have also had these withdrawn. Similarly Season Tickets remain inter-available, however we cannot guarantee this as it is also controlled by Great Northern.

Tickets will clearly state which Hertford Station is specified, for example; if you bought a ticket at Liverpool Street it would be to Hertford East and from Kings Cross or Moorgate, Hertford North. Tickets to and from stations beyond the London Terminals will remain as 'Hertford Stations'.

In regards to Staff; although the withdrawal was not down to us, we have kept all staff updated to the changes that have begun.

If you would like to contact Great Northern about these alterations, please do not hesitate to contact them there details are below:

Phone: 0345 0264 700

Address: Hertford House
1 Cranwood Street
London
EC1V 9QS

Email address: [email protected]

Once again, please accept my apologies and thank you for contacting us.

Yours sincerely,

XXXXXX XXXXXXX
Customer Relations Advisor
Abellio Greater Anglia

So Abellio are saying that the Hertford Stations fares have been withdrawn in readiness for Oyster being rolled out. They're also blaming Govia.

It'll be interesting to see what Govia have to say about it.

 

[bb21]

What's wrong with keeping the Hertford Stns fare and introducing Hertford East fares specifically for Oyster? Rip-off whenever changes are implemented it seems.

Might be worth complaining to GN since they price the previous fares, although don't expect too much.

 

[Be3G]

Err, I'm confused. London Overground aren't taking over the Hertford East branch; the furthest they will reach is Cheshunt. And I thought Oyster to Hertford East had been abandoned?

 

[Envy123]

Err, I'm confused. London Overground aren't taking over the Hertford East branch; the furthest they will reach is Cheshunt. And I thought Oyster to Hertford East had been abandoned?

Exactly my thoughts.

And does this mean that Oyster extensions from Crews Hill to Hertford North is a no-go?

 

[Kite159]

Err, I'm confused. London Overground aren't taking over the Hertford East branch; the furthest they will reach is Cheshunt. And I thought Oyster to Hertford East had been abandoned?

They either know something we don't know that LOROL will take over the branch next year leaving just AGA with the outer suburban stuff

So much for Simple fares

 

[JaJaWa]

So Abellio are saying that the Hertford Stations fares have been withdrawn in readiness for Oyster being rolled out. They're also blaming Govia.

It'll be interesting to see what Govia have to say about it.

Oh dear! We had hoped Oyster was being made available but I don't think London Overground had been mentioned! Would be nice if Govia did decide to hand their franchise over to TfL though...

 

[Mojo]

Is the changing of the destinations from London Terminals not Crossrail related? Search for tickets from Tottenham Hale to London Terminals and you won't find any. You will find Anytime Day Singles and Returns to London Liverpool Street though.

The change took place in January, and only affected tickets from stations within the Zones, with the exception of Enfield Town/Chase. The same was done on routes into Paddington.

 

[Hadders]

I've now had a response from GTR:

Dear Hadders,

Thank you very much for taking the time to contact us with regards to the changes made to tickets valid for travel between Hertford Stations.

I have been in contact with our fares manager who has confirmed that changes were made to take effect from Sunday 17 May. The changes that were requested by Abellio Greater Anglia were for the proposed implementation of Smartcard ticketing on their network later this year. However it appears there was an error during this process which has been spotted and changes have been made to once again offer tickets valid to both Hertford North and Hertford East stations. Whenever a mistake is identified, due to the high number of ticket retail outlets, it can often take several days to correct. I would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused during this time.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact us and I hope that this issue has been rectified.

Yours sincerely
Xxxx XXXXXX
Customer Relations Advisor

So it seems the Hertford Stations tickets were withdrawn in error, although Abellio needed specific Hertford East fares in connection with smart tickets.

Does anyone know if Hertford Stations tickets have been reinstated yet?

 

[bb21]

Wow, I am impressed.

 

[greatkingrat]

They have added fares from Hertford Stations to London Terminals. They have also added the off-peak travelcard. However there is still no Boundary Zone 6 fare.

The problem now is there are two identical sets of fares in the system, one from Hertford North and one from Hertford Stations. It would be interesting to see which one prints off if you go to the ticket machine at Hertford North and select London Terminals as the destination.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Having read the whole post, definitiely looks like one to take up with your MP, LTW or the GLA. Clearly, Oyster acceptance is not meant to create a mess like this however the TfL fares system doesn't really acknowledge route intervailability so each time Oyster is 'extended' interavailability will drop because TfL only think in 'point to point' terms. Yes, there are in theory easements where NR and TfL parallel run but TfL staff are rarely briefed on these and routinely hassle passengers who try to use this 'facility'. And the saga about 5 fares being 'simplified' to 9 is one that is certainly worth shouting from the rooftops. Positively Orwellian!

 

[plcd1]

Having read the whole post, definitiely looks like one to take up with your MP, LTW or the GLA. Clearly, Oyster acceptance is not meant to create a mess like this however the TfL fares system doesn't really acknowledge route intervailability so each time Oyster is 'extended' interavailability will drop because TfL only think in 'point to point' terms. Yes, there are in theory easements where NR and TfL parallel run but TfL staff are rarely briefed on these and routinely hassle passengers who try to use this 'facility'. And the saga about 5 fares being 'simplified' to 9 is one that is certainly worth shouting from the rooftops. Positively Orwellian!

Unfortunately I doubt a complaint would get very far. It's clear the latest fares changes as a result of devolution of services to TfL are tied into undertakings TfL has made. The fares advice document is linked to on another thread and it sets out some details about the restrictions TfL are bound by. I dug out the Crossrail Sponsors Agreement to check the detail but the detailed clauses on fares are redacted - presumably to avoid too much controversy landing on certain desks!

TfL themselves have said that the Shenfield line changes with "non standard" zonal pricing are likely to set a precedent for fares on any other routes that TfL might gain through further devolution. It has certainly had an impact on some West Anglia fares. This is likely to increase complexity not reduce it because each TOC has followed different pricing principles. TfL will not be able to offer cheap fares on any further lines if the result would be a massive step change in fares as you cross the boundary. TfL are also not able to create fares that undercut those of an adjacent operator. I think we can therefore expect little or no divergence from FGW fares when Crossrail heads west from West Drayton.

It all rather undermines the political claims that transferring suburban services to TfL control would instantly bring about cheaper fares for everyone. The DfT have pre-empted that possibility and ensured all fares require the approval of the Secretary of State.

 

[unicorn]

Quick update on this... yes the Hertford Stations>London Terminals ticket has returned in theory.

In practice, it is only available online if you know what you're looking for. The TVM at Hertford East will only issue you a HFE>LST ticket, and the only option for London Terminals remains a 7 day travelcard.

Likewise the Super Off-Peak Z1-6 travelcard is still unavailable from the TVM at weekends.

Will investigate what the situation is at Hertford North this weekend, but very poor from AGA

 

[Hadders]

That's interesting to know. I'm waiting for a response from AGA following their reply to my original query. They ignored some of the questions I asked but I'm not easily fobbed off!!!

 

[Aictos]

The latest staff briefing advises the smartcard readers currently being installed on GN and TL route will be for the Key only and Oyster will not be valid outside the London Travelcard area.

I'm sure Oyster will one day be extended further out though.

 

[JaJaWa]

The latest staff briefing advises the smartcard readers currently being installed on GN and TL route will be for the Key only and Oyster will not be valid outside the London Travelcard area.

I'm sure Oyster will one day be extended further out though.

It seems Oyster's migration to the back-office system has fallen behind, but the DfT still believes that Oyster will be valid at (at least) Gatwick Airport from September.

 

[infobleep]

I noticed at the Gatwick Airport ticket windows they mention Oyster. I assume this is because they sell the cards, even though they are not valid from Gatwick Airport itself.

 

[garnon]

Tried to purchase a BZ6 - Hertford Stations today at Charing Cross and was unable to do so.

Instead I asked for BZ6 - Hertford East and this was also unavailable.

Only option offered was BZ6 - Hertford North though I was told this was ok to Hertford East. (which I highly suspect it is not but as the lady was a railway official...).

So despite the success in reinstating London Terminals - Hertford Stations I guess there is no intent to reinstate the BZ6 ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Enfield Lock to Bayford is valid via Hertford. Thus a Boundary Zone 6 to Bayford ticket should be as well.

Appears to provide a substantially different fare - £12.40 off peak return (with gold card) vie Hertford East compared with £4.50 to Hertford East

 

[RJ]

Appears to provide a substantially different fare - £12.40 off peak return (with gold card) vie Hertford East compared with £4.50 to Hertford East

The idea is that you buy a Boundary Zone 6 to Bayford ticket, which is valid between Enfield Lock and Bayford via Hertford East.

 

[Hadders]

Abellio replied to me stating that while there was no Boundary Zone fare to Hertford East available, a ticket from Enfield Lock to Hertford East would suffice.

I don't know if all Hertford East trains call at Enfield Lock.

 

[RJ]

Abellio replied to me stating that while there was no Boundary Zone fare to Hertford East available, a ticket from Enfield Lock to Hertford East would suffice.

I don't know if all Hertford East trains call at Enfield Lock.

Might be worth checking to see if they enforce Condition 19. Some TOCs are prepared to allow 19b splits at stations where the train doesn't stop in some, or all situations.

 

[Be3G]

I don't know if all Hertford East trains call at Enfield Lock.

The ones that run via Edmonton Green definitely don't! Rather useless advice from Greater Anglia – unless they're saying they'd accept a ticket from Enfield Lock even on services that don't run though the station…

 

[maniacmartin]

Even though it would not officially be allowed, many TOCs will accept tickets from the last named stations in the zones when combined with a (Day) Travelcard, if the ticket is priced the same as a Boundary Zone ticket. Some even advise it as you can then buy online or from a TVM (whereas BZ tickets are only available from staffed ticket offices)

 

[Kite159]

Even though it would not officially be allowed, many TOCs will accept tickets from the last named stations in the zones when combined with a (Day) Travelcard, if the ticket is priced the same as a Boundary Zone ticket. Some even advise it as you can then buy online or from a TVM (whereas BZ tickets are only available from staffed ticket offices)

BZ tickets are available from Southern & London Overground TVMs

Slightly annoying that the BZ - Hertford ticket isn't available as I was going to do a linear bash along the Hertford East line, crossing over and come down via Hertford North.

 

[A1]

Abellio replied to me stating that while there was no Boundary Zone fare to Hertford East available, a ticket from Enfield Lock to Hertford East would suffice.

I don't know if all Hertford East trains call at Enfield Lock.

Assuming it is valid, it is still a 50% increase in cost on weekends ....

(Thought I hadn't had a response ... Oops, went straight to spam )

Here's what GA say:

"I was sorry to learn that you have been affected by the changes in the Ticketing System. I can understand your frustrations as you have been using these tickets for a long time, and any change, and certainly one that increases your costs is extremely inconvenient.

You may be aware but London Overground (LOROL) will be taking over much of this route. As such, they have introduced a new ticketing system and these changes you have experienced were made by them. I'm afraid I am unable to comment on this, and I apologise for any disappointment this causes.

If you would like to contact LOROL directly for more information, please find their contact details below: "


LOROL making the change? That's a new one....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have now dragged great Northern and London overground into my complaint.

Back and forth with GA, with my latest being a request for GA to introduce their own z6 to Hertford East ticket.... I wish they'd stop blaming everyone else.