Greater Manchester Combined Authority: Latest transport strategy draft publication

[Greybeard33]

Wigan itself isn't going to lose direct services on heavy rail to Manchester, as I doubt the Southport line would be cut off (I could see Kirkby being a shuttle, though). They would run via Bolton instead.

Although Lostock - Wigan electrification (assuming it happens in CP6) will then be left as a white elephant. The 2tph to Wigan via Bolton will both have to continue to Southport instead of terminating at North Western.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although Lostock - Wigan electrification (assuming it happens in CP6) will then be left as a white elephant. The 2tph to Wigan via Bolton will both have to continue to Southport instead of terminating at North Western.

No, it won't, as the intention is to operate the Southport line (well, the Piccadilly services anyway) using Class 769 bi-modes.

 

[507002]

Is it? Merseyrail trains don't have toilets, nor do London Overground trains. They are doing similar journey lengths.

Merseyrail has the longest journey at 1 hour and 3 mins, merseyrail has toliets at most stations with stops every 2-10 mins on the NBN, WKI, CTR, HNX, SOP, KIR and OMS lines where as on Metro****e they have no toliets...

 

[Jozhua]

It would be a lot better than that misguided busway. Trouble with the Eccles branch is that it's so slow, though, being really built to serve Salford Quays but extended to Eccles to gain funding.

It's the only tram line I've used, not experienced any of the others so my impression of metrolink is pretty slow!

How much faster are the other lines? My only concern with metrolinking lines is the stops are so close together, so generally not much progress is made...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My only concern with metrolinking lines is the stops are so close together, so generally not much progress is made...

That is somewhat of a blanket statement of nearness to make as the Metrolink Bury and Altrincham line stops outside the city core (with the exceptions of Queens Road and Abraham Moss which replaced the Woodlands Road stop) are those of the original heavy-rail railways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the only tram line I've used, not experienced any of the others so my impression of metrolink is pretty slow!

How much faster are the other lines? My only concern with metrolinking lines is the stops are so close together, so generally not much progress is made...

Much, much faster. The Eccles line is a traditional street tramway (as is the Ashton line), the rest of it is converted railways with much greater gaps between stops and plenty of higher speed running.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It's the only tram line I've used, not experienced any of the others so my impression of metrolink is pretty slow!

How much faster are the other lines? My only concern with metrolinking lines is the stops are so close together, so generally not much progress is made...

Even worse when running as doubles, as the majority of services yesterday were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even worse when running as doubles, as the majority of services yesterday were.

Why would double trams affect progress?

 

[geoffk]

Can the Bolton line handle the increased traffic? Also cutting the Atherton line means a vital diversion route is lost from the wcml to manchester.

I am at a loss at the tramification calls. It's not an improvement on heavy rail, and a trip from Manchester to Atherton without a toilet is going to result in a smelly tram on a weekend.

On the Atherton line, is it feasible to lay two Metrolink tracks alongside the railway (which used to be four-track) as far as Walkden, then run along the old LNWR line, which is now a footpath, to Little Hulton, Royal Bolton Hospital and Bolton Town Centre? There would be a difficulty where the M60 crosses near Swinton and the railway would need realignment in places. Moorside could then become a Metrolink-only stop, leaving trains to serve Swinton and Walkden en route to Wigan and Southport. You would then have to decide how to connect the Metrolink line with the existing system and this would require on-street running.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Why would double trams affect progress?

When they go around a sharp curve, or over points, it takes twice as long to do so.

 

[edwin_m]

On the Atherton line, is it feasible to lay two Metrolink tracks alongside the railway (which used to be four-track) as far as Walkden, then run along the old LNWR line, which is now a footpath, to Little Hulton, Royal Bolton Hospital and Bolton Town Centre? There would be a difficulty where the M60 crosses near Swinton and the railway would need realignment in places. Moorside could then become a Metrolink-only stop, leaving trains to serve Swinton and Walkden en route to Wigan and Southport. You would then have to decide how to connect the Metrolink line with the existing system and this would require on-street running.

There's a big level difference where the two lines cross at Walkden although a possible solution would be to use a bit of an old colliery line that passes through the area. However going towards Little Hulton there are several obstructions such as bridges that would need replacement for use by trams. But the major obstacle is the cost of the on-street connection from west of Salford Crescent into the rest of Metrolink in central Manchester.

 

[Mogster]

Much, much faster. The Eccles line is a traditional street tramway (as is the Ashton line), the rest of it is converted railways with much greater gaps between stops and plenty of higher speed running.

Those are the bits where you really start to notice the hard seats and awful ride quality above 40mph...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those are the bits where you really start to notice the hard seats and awful ride quality above 40mph...

The hunting issue seems to be nowhere as bad with the new trams as it was with the old ones, though. The old ones made a Pacer seem comfortable.

 

[ic31420]

When they go around a sharp curve, or over points, it takes twice as long to do so.

Is this stating the obvious. Of course a double length tram, train, whatever will take twice as long to pass any point, irrespective of speed.

 

[Jozhua]

There's a big level difference where the two lines cross at Walkden although a possible solution would be to use a bit of an old colliery line that passes through the area. However going towards Little Hulton there are several obstructions such as bridges that would need replacement for use by trams. But the major obstacle is the cost of the on-street connection from west of Salford Crescent into the rest of Metrolink in central Manchester.

I was wondering how a tram line through Salford would work, there seems nowhere obvious for it to go...especially a link between Salford itself and Media City?

The area around Salford Crescent is crowded with roads and the station itself, although I guess we won't find out how it might work until they start to draft up plans for the route!

 

[faltskog36abba]

I thought animals are allowed off peak?

I don't know if the policy has changed, But a few years ago I was asked to leave the tram and get the bus, It was about two in the afternoon.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Beyond Guide/assistance dogs cats and dogs are only allowed if visiting the PDSA Pet Hospital at Old Trafford.

What about the Rspca in Eccles?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if the policy has changed, But a few years ago I was asked to leave the tram and get the bus, It was about two in the afternoon.

Metrolink

• Guide dogs and assistance dogs are welcomed on Metrolink when accompanying a disabled person.
• Also any dog or cat being accompanied to the PDSA at Old Trafford
• All other animals are not to be conveyed on Metrolink services

No charge will be made for guide dogs, hearing dogs or any dog or cat being accompanied to the PDSA at Old Trafford.

Really silly in my view. And I don't even have a pet. If they want people to give up cars, it has to be practical to get around by public transport - including pets - and bicycles.

 

[TheGrew]

I was wondering how a tram line through Salford would work, there seems nowhere obvious for it to go...especially a link between Salford itself and Media City?

The area around Salford Crescent is crowded with roads and the station itself, although I guess we won't find out how it might work until they start to draft up plans for the route!

I was thinking about this, if it was me I would be tempted to build a Salford route down the A6, turning off the 2CC at John Dalton Street passing under Salford Central (with a stop for interchange) before turning left onto the A6 I would then put more stops outside the Cathedral and the University.
Moving further into Salford I would go Cross Lane > Churchhill Lane before turning left down Langworthy Street to make a connection with the existing Eccles line.

 

[Mogster]

On the Atherton line, is it feasible to lay two Metrolink tracks alongside the railway (which used to be four-track) as far as Walkden, then run along the old LNWR line, which is now a footpath, to Little Hulton, Royal Bolton Hospital and Bolton Town Centre? There would be a difficulty where the M60 crosses near Swinton and the railway would need realignment in places. Moorside could then become a Metrolink-only stop, leaving trains to serve Swinton and Walkden en route to Wigan and Southport. You would then have to decide how to connect the Metrolink line with the existing system and this would require on-street running.

Interesting idea.

 

[radamfi]

Would improvements to or reopening of the former heavy rail services to Bury, Oldham, East Didsbury etc. generate the kinds of patronage levels currently enjoyed by Metrolink?

 

[Greybeard33]

No, it won't, as the intention is to operate the Southport line (well, the Piccadilly services anyway) using Class 769 bi-modes.

The 769s were originally intended to be a stop-gap on the Wigan NW - Alderley Edge/Stalybridge via Bolton services, until completion of the postponed Lostock - Wigan NW and Victoria - Stalybridge electrification.

Would there still be a viable business case for Lostock - Wigan electrification, if the only benefit were to enable an hourly bi-mode to burn a little less diesel?

 

[billio]

Would improvements to or reopening of the former heavy rail services to Bury, Oldham, East Didsbury etc. generate the kinds of patronage levels currently enjoyed by Metrolink?

Metrolink trams are planned to take 24 minutes from Bury to Victoria. I expect a heavy rail service on that line would probably take about the same time. The disadvantage of heavy rail is changing at Victoria to get into the centre of Manchester.

From the 19th century up to the Sixties, the fastest trains from Bury to Manchester via Clifton Junction took 14 minutes (usually trains from Accrington). I don't think there is any possibility of re-opening that route.

The third route from Bury was via Heywood. It should be possible to open that route because it has been almost completely preserved by the ELR and a connection to the heavy rail network at Castleton. And, there is room to build a new heavy rail station in Bury almost next to the Metrolink station. However, the Heywood route is longer than the Metrolink route, about 13.3 miles* compared with 9.7 miles. There will be only 4 stops (if trains stopped at all stations) compared with 9 stops on Metrolink. I think it likely that on the basis of new trains, the heavy rail service would be marginally quicker than Metrolink and provide a more comfortable but less frequent service. Building an additional park and ride station somewhere around Heap Bridge might reduce traffic going into Manchester via the M66, especially if the service ran through Victoria to other stations in central Manchester and beyond. So, rather than messing about with tram-trains between Bury and Rochdale, it would be better to implement this service with the expectation that eventually the current problem with upgrading the line through Oxford Road and Piccadilly line will be sorted out sooner rather than later.

Or, go the extra mile (i.e. 14.3 miles) and run the trains round past the Etihad and into the low number platforms in Piccadilly. The re-building of the old L&Y viaduct into Piccadilly would be expensive to say the least, but journeys would be quicker than the tram and provide a link to all the services running from Piccadilly including HS2.

 

[stepho]

Extending Metrolink gives people a bigger train set to play with.

At the expense of a proper transport system.

TFGM and Manchester councils blinkered love of all things Metrolink makes me nauseous with their wish to tramify everything, they weirdly see it as Manchester's answer to the London underground.

Metrolink is a supplementary system at best but treated as the transport centrepiece, there is no underlying coherent transport framework or strategy to support it and where it should take passengers on the final short hop to their destination, its being pushed as the core. The buses are poor, the trains are worse and the Metrolink is slow and too disparate.

Great if you live near a stop and want to go a few stops, or want to shuttle to and from the city centre - crossing this city? Forget it. Can't see how these plans make a dent into this, if anything it could make things slower.

Crossing busy road junctions and intercepting with pedestrianised areas, there is nothing worse than slowly meandering through Manchester on the Metrolink with a journey that should and does take fractions of the time by other methods. Not only do they slowly weave in and out of road junctions and pedestrianised areas (and around curves?!), by doing so they slow down other methods of transport too. Plus the centre of Manchester is already pretty much the tram equivalent of Clapham Junction.

Just as we thought we were getting rid of pacers, they want to replace rail and expand with today's equivalent. Uncomfortable, slow and with limited scale-ability/capacity, especially through the City.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at some postings concerning the existing Manchester Metrolink system, can anyone envisage anyone in future charge of transport in Manchester deciding to revert back to running future heavy-rail services along the Altrincham, Bury and Oldham loop lines to the main Manchester railway stations they once used and then explain to the users of the tram system that they will no longer be able to use the inner-city core tram stops at Shudehill, Exchange Square, Market Street, St Peter's Square and Deansgate-Castlefield, but will have to make alternative journey arrangements.

 

[radamfi]

Metrolink trams are planned to take 24 minutes from Bury to Victoria. I expect a heavy rail service on that line would probably take about the same time. The disadvantage of heavy rail is changing at Victoria to get into the centre of Manchester.

But what if the lines carried on into the city centre like a typical S-Bahn system? Basically the old Pic-Vicc tunnel idea. Lots of people on here have complained that heavy rail lines have been converted to tram and don't want further conversions. But if tramming leads to improved ridership compared to the best possible heavy rail improvement, despite the downsides (e.g. worse integration with national rail, no bikes, no toilets) surely there's no debate?

 

[edwin_m]

Looking at some postings concerning the existing Manchester Metrolink system, can anyone envisage anyone in future charge of transport in Manchester deciding to revert back to running future heavy-rail services along the Altrincham, Bury and Oldham loop lines to the main Manchester railway stations they once used and then explain to the users of the tram system that they will no longer be able to use the inner-city core tram stops at Shudehill, Exchange Square, Market Street, St Peter's Square and Deansgate-Castlefield, but will have to make alternative journey arrangements.

Also where would they find the space for terminal platforms either side of the city centre? Exchange, Central and eight or so of the bays at Victoria aren't coming back.

In the long term a tunnel under the city for local traffic is quite likely, but not clear whether it would be for light or heavy rail. A light rail option could allow increased capacity on Bury and Altrincham lines by removing the restrictions on tram length and frequency imposed by the city centre infrastructure. In this situation the vehicles would still be tram-like but would be much longer and probably not able to run on street. Other routes such as Oldham/Rochdale and Airport would still run on street so could share the same infrastructure but with vehicles the same length as today's.

 

[yorksrob]

But what if the lines carried on into the city centre like a typical S-Bahn system? Basically the old Pic-Vicc tunnel idea. Lots of people on here have complained that heavy rail lines have been converted to tram and don't want further conversions. But if tramming leads to improved ridership compared to the best possible heavy rail improvement, despite the downsides (e.g. worse integration with national rail, no bikes, no toilets) surely there's no debate?

There is if my journey options are worse. I have nothing to gain from conversion of the Atherton line, but I may lose a fast link into Manchester.

Surely the best way to turn the Atherton line into an S-bahn type system would be to run the trains through to Stalybridge/Rochdale/Heywood.

 

[radamfi]

There is if my journey options are worse. I have nothing to gain from conversion of the Atherton line, but I may lose a fast link into Manchester.

You might have a more frequent service from tram conversion.

Are you saying that it is not always best to go for the option that leads to the most patronage and the option that gets most people out of cars?

 

[yorksrob]

You might have a more frequent service from tram conversion.

Are you saying that it is not always best to go for the option that leads to the most patronage and the option that gets most people out of cars?

Yes, of course its not always best to go for that option if it gets in the way of providing the full range of transport services.

You might potentially get more people out of cars by converting all of the Bolton and Wigan Wallgate lines to a tram, however you would have to balance this against the loss of a fast, long distance rail link to the North West.