GTR Southern ceasing to run late night trains Sun-Thurs from 21 May

[BurtonM]

You lot don't have as many people wanting to use trains overnight, or a mainline between the capital and a really big airport. Greetings from the South Central.

We do like to go out of an evening though, and have the choice of staying out longer than about 10:30/11pm because the last train home is at 23:21, or one bus that goes far enough, at 0230, Fri/Sat nights only...

Greetings from Manchester.

 

[Sunset route]

But it's not like that at the moment, for a lot of work undertaken. NR regularly has continuous possessions from 2300-0100 ish through to 0430-0530 ish on large chunks of the BML without affecting the 1-2tph Thameslinks and the 1tph + late-night Metro services on Southern. The presence of so many crossovers and parallel routes also works in their favour. Even putting SLW in use through South Croydon doesn't massively reduce the capacity for what's currently timetabled, it just means it's a bit slower and the crews need their breaks at different times. Been there, done that etc.

Whenever I read the WON (frequency of this activity can be found in its name) the remark "line blocks taken and given up around trains" generally matches common sense scenarios with patrolling and very light maintenance, not anything as heavy as a £300m improvement which should properly have been programmed to take place against a background of a two-track railway.

If Old Lodge Lane could be done the way it was, and that's as major as you'll ever get without closing the BML for an extra few weeks for something enormous (Windmill Bridge renewal, perhaps), then almost anything is possible. I was actually onboard a number of services which were affected overnight by that project, and what they were doing without closing the whole route was incredible.

Changes to calling patterns do occur from time to time (diverting via Norwood Junction vice Selhurst, staff trains going to East vice West Croydon, missing out the staff stops at Redhill...) but broadly speaking a stable timetable has been in place for many years alongside maintenance of what has broadly proved to be a safe railway.

I work the night shift I grant these T3s, Lineblockages (won items, GZACs, lineside request), T1a disconnections, SLW, TBW and it's getting harder to get the workers in safely and still maintain an overnight train service. In fact with multiple blocks on the same panel giving up and retaking between trains is becoming bloody dangerous with work overload.

So if someone high up has sat around a table with their fellow higher ups from within other departments and companies and come up with a plan to sensibly to reduce the train service in the small hours to get the engineers in from all disciplines then that's got to be safer.

This has to be a problem commuter railways face the world over, when and how do you carry out your mintainance and repairs when the railway is a 24/7/364*, days a year.

*Not including all the hours between 23:00 Christmas Eve shutdown until 07:30 Boxing Day and again 20:30 Boxing Day until 03:00 approx on the 27th.

 

[Fincra5]

Its not ideal the withdrawal of the night SN services. Never is... but it has to be done it seems. People will adjust to travelling from Blackfriars and (not too far away London Bridge). So Gatwick to London is served, perhaps not as frequently.

But lets be honest, hardly anything GTR has done has been good

 

[Chrisgr31]

So reading between the lines it seems likely that this change has come about due to the Chris Gibb report.

That is of course the report that the passengers are not allowed to see due to election purdah rules!

 

[infobleep]

Having looked at the timetables, this means that the last journey opportunities for some will be an hour earlier. Currently, those heading to SW London and SWML destinations have a final connection from Gatwick departing 0015, changing at East Croydon and Clapham for the 0115 final train down the SWML. From this new timetable, I believe the 2313 ex Gatwick will be the last train to Clapham.
As for the suburban service, nobody south of the river should have a post-midnight train service. I mean, a last train of 2345 has been standard for Thameslink southern suburban customers for years, so now BML compadres can share the joy that GTR bringeth.
Blackfriars is a terrible destination for those with onward travel needs or unsure of the city. Big taxi rank? No. Comprehensive night bus network stopping outside? No. Nearby late night facilities/café? No.
And of course the only other station that could offer an equivalent service level, St Pancras, is not a valid destination for those with London Terminals tickets from south of the river.

There will always be winners and losers so the saying goes. With Southern at times it seems to be losers more than winners.

 

[infobleep]

So reading between the lines it seems likely that this change has come about due to the Chris Gibb report.

That is of course the report that the passengers are not allowed to see due to election purdah rules!

If we are not allowed to see it, why are TOCs? After all people working for them are allowed to vote too!

 

[infobleep]

I see what they have done is cancel the 1am train but not put anything in it's place. I was under the impression they had added a later service from Blackfriars but not so it seems.

 

[Minstral25]

I work the night shift I grant these T3s, Lineblockages (won items, GZACs, lineside request), T1a disconnections, SLW, TBW and it's getting harder to get the workers in safely and still maintain an overnight train service. In fact with multiple blocks on the same panel giving up and retaking between trains is becoming bloody dangerous with work overload.

So if someone high up has sat around a table with their fellow higher ups from within other departments and companies and come up with a plan to sensibly to reduce the train service in the small hours to get the engineers in from all disciplines then that's got to be safer.

This has to be a problem commuter railways face the world over, when and how do you carry out your mintainance and repairs when the railway is a 24/7/364*, days a year.

*Not including all the hours between 23:00 Christmas Eve shutdown until 07:30 Boxing Day and again 20:30 Boxing Day until 03:00 approx on the 27th.

I accept the problem but the solution is very badly planned. The 00:14 from Victoria is a very important train and is normally standing all the way to Redhill.

For the sake of 7 minutes

5 days a week the last service is moved from a station to another but stays same place for other two days. How to confuse passengers

Service removed from Clapham Junction that is heavily used and no replacement put in place.

Last train from East Croydon to Redhill put back 30 minutes, positive but means gap from previous train increased by 30 minutes, so a lot more waiting at East Croydon for many people.

Last train arrives in Redhill 32 minutes later than currently but you have to set off at the same time. Massively extended journey time for what should be a 30-35 minute journey.

Previous direct train to Redhill from Victoria moved from 23:47 to 23:40 in recent memory, meaning last train is now 34 minutes earlier.

They still run a train from Victoria at 00:07 and no reason why it couldn't call at all stations or run a train just 7 minutes later!!

 

[Carlisle]

You lot don't know you are born. Greetings from Cumbria.

Exacly this Saturdays last southbound mainline train service from Carlisle is at the horrendously late hour of 20.09

 

[Fincra5]

I see what they have done is cancel the 1am train but not put anything in it's place. I was under the impression they had added a later service from Blackfriars but not so it seems.

There's now (will be) a 2340 from Bedford to Brighton. So there is a later service. Not quite 1am I'd have thought but not far off. Currently the last Bedford to Brighton is 2310.

 

[Minstral25]

There's now (will be) a 2340 from Bedford to Brighton. So there is a later service. Not quite 1am I'd have thought but not far off. Currently the last Bedford to Brighton is 2310.

Yes leaves Blackfriars at 01:05 - not Fridays or Saturdays extension form Gatwick

 

[Fincra5]

Yes leaves Blackfriars at 01:05 - not Fridays or Saturdays extension form Gatwick

SN ones will still run on Fri and Sat.

 

[infobleep]

There's now (will be) a 2340 from Bedford to Brighton. So there is a later service. Not quite 1am I'd have thought but not far off. Currently the last Bedford to Brighton is 2310.

It's there now though. I was expecting a service to appear in the next timetable that didn't exist. Not one that already runs. Actually I see it's being extended to Brighton so technically it doesn't run in it's new full route now but run it does as far as Three Bridges currently, so that's a fair amount of it.

 

[infobleep]

Yes leaves Blackfriars at 01:05 - not Fridays or Saturdays extension form Gatwick

The 01.05am is not showing on the National Rail Enquiries App when I do a search.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Won't this put more pressure on earlier Victoria-Brighton trains, for those people who ARE able to get to Victoria earlier than they currently are used to ?

I sometimes use the 22:20, and invariably, the platform it will depart from is not shown until very close to the appointed time. Often, I've seen the front 8 coaches (of 12) taken to the depot, delaying the departure of the passenger service from that same platform, and ramming everyone into just 4 coaches. Passengers boarding at Clapham Junction always have to stand, at least as far as East Croydon.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why they don't use all 12 carriages for the 22:20 ? (Even 8 would be an improvement)

Also, from a layman's perspective, can someone offer an explanation as to why they don't at least use the front 4 coaches, and send the ECS to the depot after the 22:20 has departed, thus reducing the risk of delay to fare-paying passengers ??

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, also in the changes is cancellation of the 2307 from London Victoria to Brighton, presumably because 2-track railway starts earlier - it will be interesting to see whether train lengths are maintained (or enhanced where a 4-car currently runs).

 

[Fincra5]

Won't this put more pressure on earlier Victoria-Brighton trains, for those people who ARE able to get to Victoria earlier than they currently are used to ?

I sometimes use the 22:20, and invariably, the platform it will depart from is not shown until very close to the appointed time. Often, I've seen the front 8 coaches (of 12) taken to the depot, delaying the departure of the passenger service from that same platform, and ramming everyone into just 4 coaches. Passengers boarding at Clapham Junction always have to stand, at least as far as East Croydon.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why they don't use all 12 carriages for the 22:20 ? (Even 8 would be an improvement)

Also, from a layman's perspective, can someone offer an explanation as to why they don't at least use the front 4 coaches, and send the ECS to the depot after the 22:20 has departed, thus reducing the risk of delay to fare-paying passengers ??

As you say the stock might go ECS to the depot. It might not. It has to be somewhere for it's next service (the next morning). It's not as simple as saying "Yeah we'll take 12"

 

[DarloRich]

I accept the problem but the solution is very badly planned. The 00:14 from Victoria is a very important train and is normally standing all the way to Redhill.

For the sake of 7 minutes

5 days a week the last service is moved from a station to another but stays same place for other two days. How to confuse passengers

Service removed from Clapham Junction that is heavily used and no replacement put in place.

Last train from East Croydon to Redhill put back 30 minutes, positive but means gap from previous train increased by 30 minutes, so a lot more waiting at East Croydon for many people.

Last train arrives in Redhill 32 minutes later than currently but you have to set off at the same time. Massively extended journey time for what should be a 30-35 minute journey.

Previous direct train to Redhill from Victoria moved from 23:47 to 23:40 in recent memory, meaning last train is now 34 minutes earlier.

They still run a train from Victoria at 00:07 and no reason why it couldn't call at all stations or run a train just 7 minutes later!!

No problem. Lets shut the line at 9am on a Monday morning.

It isnt just 7 minutes though is it? When your " only 7 minutes" becomes 20 becomes 30 or more due to a fight on the train or a technical issue you start having to re plan work and cut what you can do. Normal people ( and that is no criticism) have no real understanding of how difficult it is to get any meaningful work done in an overnight possession or how what looks like little delays can really impact on your plan of work.

 

[Minstral25]

No problem. Lets shut the line at 9am on a Monday morning.

It isnt just 7 minutes though is it? When your " only 7 minutes" becomes 20 becomes 30 or more due to a fight on the train or a technical issue you start having to re plan work and cut what you can do. Normal people ( and that is no criticism) have no real understanding of how difficult it is to get any meaningful work done in an overnight possession or how what looks like little delays can really impact on your plan of work.

What happens when the same fight starts on 00:07 because all the passengers are being squeezed into that train - that train is going to become extra busy or if that train develops a technical issue.

It is just 7 minutes

I do understand that work needs to be done. So why not leave the Eastbourne at 00:05 and follow with the Gatwick at 00:07 instead of 00:14? That wouldn't be so bad but sending everyone to Blackfriars and run the train 30 minutes later from East Croydon is not well planned or customer friendly.

I've travelled on the 00:14 hundreds of times over the last 20 years and it is one of the most reliable trains for getting into Redhill on time (probably because of lax timing) - main problem it encounters is being too full and squeezing everyone on the 4 or 8 car train provided

 

[DarloRich]

What happens when the same fight starts on 00:07 because all the passengers are being squeezed into that train - that train is going to become extra busy or if that train develops a technical issue.

It is just 7 minutes

I do understand that work needs to be done. So why not leave the Eastbourne at 00:05 and follow with the Gatwick at 00:07 instead of 00:14? That wouldn't be so bad but sending everyone to Blackfriars and run the train 30 minutes later from East Croydon is not well planned or customer friendly.

I've travelled on the 00:14 hundreds of times over the last 20 years and it is one of the most reliable trains for getting into Redhill on time (probably because of lax timing) - main problem it encounters is being too full and squeezing everyone on the 4 or 8 car train provided

it is 7 minutes on the passenger timetable but much more than that, potentially, on the work plan. I know it seems a minor issue but it really isnt when the main focus has to be on hand back bang on time for the am commuter flows.

 

[Minstral25]

it is 7 minutes on the passenger timetable but much more than that, potentially, on the work plan. I know it seems a minor issue but it really isnt when the main focus has to be on hand back bang on time for the am commuter flows.

Yes but I am a passenger so can only see public timetables but realistically at that time of night there is unlikely to be much difference.

What I do know is that the 00:05 to Worthing/Eastbourne will become a lot busier as it will be 1 train where there was 3

Plus the platforms at East Croydon will have around 2 or 300 Redhill line customers waiting on cold platforms for around 40 minutes (Possibly a good idea to get a late night coffee franchise at East Croydon)

 

[Fincra5]

This is why they tend to publish timetable changes in advance, so people can plan the services to use.

2W81 - 23:10 Bedford to Three Bridges will additionally call at; Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and Horley.

Departing St Pancras at 00:24 and Blackfriars at 00:35

 

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[JonathanH]

What happens when the same fight starts on 00:07 because all the passengers are being squeezed into that train - that train is going to become extra busy or if that train develops a technical issue.

It is just 7 minutes

I do understand that work needs to be done. So why not leave the Eastbourne at 00:05 and follow with the Gatwick at 00:07 instead of 00:14? That wouldn't be so bad but sending everyone to Blackfriars and run the train 30 minutes later from East Croydon is not well planned or customer friendly.

I've travelled on the 00:14 hundreds of times over the last 20 years and it is one of the most reliable trains for getting into Redhill on time (probably because of lax timing) - main problem it encounters is being too full and squeezing everyone on the 4 or 8 car train provided

The 00:07 is timetabled at 00:05 still in the new timetable. It is just the first week when it leaves at 00:07 as the inbound working from Ore is diverted via Brighton and it only gets to Victoria at 00:01.

It appears that the 00:05 may only be 4-car in the future as well since it no longer seems to go to both Worthing and Eastbourne. Instead, the Eastbourne bit runs as a separate train from Brighton.

As for the 00:14, I suspect that part of the reason for the cancellation is the fact that its return working from Gatwick to Victoria doesn't run so it is easier to chop the whole of the working. The only people materially inconvenienced are those travelling from London to Merstham and Redhill.

I would guess that they don't want to delay the 00:05 by stopping it at Redhill as it would cause delay to the running time to Worthing and Eastbourne and it may only be 4 coaches.

The Thameslink train which leaves East Croydon at 00:32 can't stop at stations to Redhill because it would jeoparise the turn around at Three Bridges.

The 00:29 arrival at East Croydon from London Bridge returns to London Bridge at 00:41 and is intended to retain Thameslink connections to / from Gatwick so is not available to go to Redhill.

The 01:07 from East Croydon gets the Redhill line stops because it goes into Three Bridges depot - so seems convenient from an operating perspective and cheaper than hiring a bus. It will be interesting to see whether the operators actually arrange a bus on nights when the line via Redhill is shut overnight or just remove it from the timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

This is why they tend to publish timetable changes in advance, so people can plan the services to use.

2W81 - 23:10 Bedford to Three Bridges will additionally call at; Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and Horley.

Departing St Pancras at 00:24 and Blackfriars at 00:35

What about http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G48952/2017/06/21/advanced
when it apparently doesn't stop at Redhill?

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure why rail staff of all people seem to be assuming good faith on the part of GTR (e.g. this is clearly rationalisation as outlined by TSR)

mainly because it is NR driving the matter not GTR

 

[Minstral25]

This is why they tend to publish timetable changes in advance, so people can plan the services to use.

2W81 - 23:10 Bedford to Three Bridges will additionally call at; Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and Horley.

Departing St Pancras at 00:24 and Blackfriars at 00:35

Two issues

it arrives a lot later (over 30 minutes which at that time of night is a big inconvenience)

It doesn't call at Clapham Junction or Victoria where the passengers expect it to go from and has every other train during the evening to these destinations. Swapping stations may sound like a minor inconvenience for experienced Rail hands like on this site but its not for most passengers.

NR may be driving this but last trains should be sacrosanct and not changed at short notice without proper replacement.

 

[30907]

NR may be driving this but last trains should be sacrosanct and not changed at short notice without proper replacement.

Slight problem: the last trains are the ones that get in the way of the engineering work.

I did wonder whether Victoria-Herne Hill-Crystal Palace-Windmill Bridge Jn would be workable though.

 

[Hophead]

That wouldn't be so bad but sending everyone to Blackfriars (at their own expense)

- my bold - at least GTR haven't indicated so far as I can see, that TfL will permit free travel between Victoria & Blackfriars.

 

[30907]

- my bold - at least GTR haven't indicated so far as I can see, that TfL will permit free travel between Victoria & Blackfriars.

Apart from the ones who get caught out by the change, how many will actually need to do so. I don't recall Victoria being at the heart of London's nightlife.