GTR Southern ceasing to run late night trains Sun-Thurs from 21 May

[Minstral25]

Southern have just given notice that late night trains from Victoria will be axed from 17th May. Last train will depart at 00:07 to Eastbourne. Why Eastbourne I have no idea. Late night services on suburban stations and along the Redhill line are just abandoned.

Whilst the axing of services is difficult at any time, giving just 15 days notice is ludicrous. Is it even allowed?

Redhill last train from Victoria will be at 23:40 (instead of 00:14) which is far too early. There are later replacements from Blackfriars (that get you home a whole lot later as well) but how that helps customers from Clapham Junction I have no idea.

Details http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/timetable-changes-may-2017/

From 21 May 2017, to coincide with the launch of the new timetable, there will be a key change to overnight train services from London Victoria and return. This will enable Network Rail to carry out essential engineering works on one of the UK’s busiest rail networks. 

• Southern trains departing after 00.05 and before 04.52 from London Victoria and return will not run on Sunday to Thursday nights (i.e. the early hours of Monday to Friday mornings) when passenger numbers are lowest.
• Passengers with Southern tickets will be able to use Thameslink services from London Blackfriars to travel between central London, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport/Brighton; late evening and overnight Thameslink services will call additionally at Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and Horley as appropriate with some trains also running further than normal, to Haywards Heath and Brighton...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Am more perturbed about the additional calls by Thameslink trains affecting the service once it's on the proper side of the river.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Redhill last train from Victoria will be at 23:40 (instead of 00:14) which is far too early.

You lot don't know you are born. Greetings from Cumbria.

Andrew

 

[tsr]

Afternoon all...

This has already been mentioned in the depths of another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143199&page=17) but I feel it worth bringing to people's attention here, given the importance of the BML and its connections to London, Gatwick et al.

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/timetable-changes-may-2017

Southern and Network Rail are working to improve reliability and punctuality. This means closing certain tracks for engineering work at less busy times so there are fewer delays because of problems with the tracks and signalling.

From 21 May 2017, to coincide with the launch of the new timetable, there will be a key change to overnight train services from London Victoria and return. This will enable Network Rail to carry out essential engineering works on one of the UK’s busiest rail networks. 

Southern trains departing after 00.05 and before 04.52 from London Victoria and return will not run on Sunday to Thursday nights (i.e. the early hours of Monday to Friday mornings) when passenger numbers are lowest.
Passengers with Southern tickets will be able to use Thameslink services from London Blackfriars to travel between central London, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport/Brighton; late evening and overnight Thameslink services will call additionally at Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and Horley as appropriate with some trains also running further than normal, to Haywards Heath and Brighton, to provide an alternative to Southern trains that will not run
The Southern night service will be retained on Friday and Saturday nights (i.e. the early hours of Saturday and Sunday) when there is most demand
Current arrangements whereby Gatwick Express has no overnight services between 23:30 and 05:00 will continue
The initiative will give Network Rail more time to carry out essential maintenance and improvement work overnight on the very congested Brighton Main Line, one of the UK’s busiest rail networks.  It will also help Network Rail deliver critical elements of a £300m improvement plan that was announced by the Government in January. Ultimately it will help provide a more reliable and punctual train service and reduce delays for more than 300,000 commuters each day on the Southern network. 

There had been consistent mutterings for a few weeks (at least) amongst various local staff, but not enough substantial evidence to post on here.

I must say that the London Victoria-Gatwick Airport/Three Bridges trains are rather well used by tourists and shift workers, and regarding their journeys heading southbound, it's not unheard of for these services to be full and standing on Wednesday-Sunday nights. I'm surprised no replacement transport at all will be provided. Permanent replacement buses on overnight services are, I believe, used each night around the Midlands and North of England.

There are a few stops on these trains which don't see many passengers, for example Horley, but some of the busier stops are the worst affected anyway.

Also, expect this to cause one or two cancellations for the first few early mornings after 21 May, as drivers realise they can't get to work on the 0359 from Three Bridges (and its subsequent calls at Horley, Redhill, Purley etc.). Or if the diagrams still require them for crew "passing" moves if they don't get re-planned in time - shuttling crew to and from staff stops at Selhurst is another key use for these overnight trains.

What this indicates to me is that Thameslink might continue to run the vast majority of overnight services required by the TSGN specifications from 2018. They're already ramping up to running (at least) a half-hourly overnight service in places, and have more diversion routes around London than Southern. Unstaffed, wipe-clean trains running through the night... lovely...!

Although there's sure to be a lot of work requiring NR intervention at any given point in the future, the BML between Victoria and Earlswood has to be one of the most flexible routes in the UK for overnight running, with diversions and parallel routes, and opportunities for single-line working (done at least a few times a year) where this is not possible, generally around South Croydon-Coulsdon. I smell rationalisation, really, if you can call it that.

 

[tsr]

You lot don't know you are born. Greetings from Cumbria.

Andrew

You lot don't have as many people wanting to use trains overnight, or a mainline between the capital and a really big airport. Greetings from the South Central.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The clue is in the phrase "engineering works".
If the reliability of the line is to be improved, as indicated in the Chris Gibb plan, more overnight maintenance is essential.
Anybody enduring electrification and other upgrades in other parts of the country will know that you can't renew the railway without impact, usually overnight and at weekends.
It doesn't sound to me that GTR is simply throwing in the towel because it feels like it, and it will have been agreed with NR, ORR and the DfT.

 

[Robertj21a]

Southern have just given notice that late night trains from Victoria will be axed from 17th May. Last train will depart at 00:07 to Eastbourne. Why Eastbourne I have no idea. Late night services on suburban stations and along the Redhill line are just abandoned.

Whilst the axing of services is difficult at any time, giving just 15 days notice is ludicrous. Is it even allowed?

Redhill last train from Victoria will be at 23:40 (instead of 00:14) which is far too early. There are later replacements from Blackfriars (that get you home a whole lot later as well) but how that helps customers from Clapham Junction I have no idea.

Details http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/timetable-changes-may-2017/

Doesn't seem particularly significant. What am I missing ?

 

[tsr]

The clue is in the phrase "engineering works".
If the reliability of the line is to be improved, as indicated in the Chris Gibb plan, more overnight maintenance is essential.
Anybody enduring electrification and other upgrades in other parts of the country will know that you can't renew the railway without impact, usually overnight and at weekends.
It doesn't sound to me that GTR is simply throwing in the towel because it feels like it, and it will have been agreed with NR, ORR and the DfT.

The existing BML is pretty flexible, with numerous crossovers and/or single line working areas in use for overnight engineering on pretty much every night of the year, and only rare full closures, where (up until now) buses have been used. The TL services will use the very same routes as the current Southern services between Windmill Bridge Jn and Three Bridges, and if they're using the BML overnight just as much (see the press release), the same tracks on that bit as well. They do have a few more diversions around South London - but as and when they start to permanently run via London Bridge, they'll have to have replacements available if they divert away.

As I posted in the thread of my own which I accidentally created, this seems to be rationalisation which will handily also allow a few more works to be carried out between Streatham Common Junction and Victoria (approximately four vice two tracks at a time, when the early morning ECS moves don't need to run), and that's about it.

 

[OxtedL]

Simplifying the network to only run on one route at night (Thameslink) rather than two for the quietest days of the week must be the least disruptive way by far to increase maintenance time on a really busy network.

 

[MCR247]

Simplifying the network to only run on one route at night (Thameslink) rather than two for the quietest days of the week must be the least disruptive way by far to increase maintenance time on a really busy network.

But how does it increase maintenance time anything south of Streatham Common? They use the same tracks

 

[BestWestern]

I must say that the London Victoria-Gatwick Airport/Three Bridges trains are rather well used by tourists and shift workers, and regarding their journeys heading southbound, it's not unheard of for these services to be full and standing on Wednesday-Sunday nights. I'm surprised no replacement transport at all will be provided.

I think you may have answered your question! That's a lot of buses.

 

[TUC]

I think you may have answered your question! That's a lot of buses.

So because a lot of passengers are affected that's a reason to do less than would be done if there were fewer passrngers? That sounds peverse.

And, whatever the alternative daytime demands on coaches, there's undoubtedly plenty of them sitting unused overnight.

 

[route:oxford]

You lot don't have as many people wanting to use trains overnight, or a mainline between the capital and a really big airport. Greetings from the South Central.

You don't have to go far out of London to find the late evening services are dreadful.

The last direct service from Birmingham to Reading is at 22:04
The last connecting service from Birmingham to Reading is at 22:12 and takes over 3 hours.

 

[Sunset route]

But how does it increase maintenance time anything south of Streatham Common? They use the same tracks

Because of having to give up and take line blockages 4X an hour and not really getting any meaningful work done against 2X times an hours and hopefully at least getting some work done while still moving the few people who like to travel at 3am.

 

[tsr]

Because of having to give up and take line blockages 4X an hour and not really getting any meaningful work done against 2X times an hours and hopefully at least getting some work done while still moving the few people who like to travel at 3am.

But it's not like that at the moment, for a lot of work undertaken. NR regularly has continuous possessions from 2300-0100 ish through to 0430-0530 ish on large chunks of the BML without affecting the 1-2tph Thameslinks and the 1tph + late-night Metro services on Southern. The presence of so many crossovers and parallel routes also works in their favour. Even putting SLW in use through South Croydon doesn't massively reduce the capacity for what's currently timetabled, it just means it's a bit slower and the crews need their breaks at different times. Been there, done that etc.

Whenever I read the WON (frequency of this activity can be found in its name) the remark "line blocks taken and given up around trains" generally matches common sense scenarios with patrolling and very light maintenance, not anything as heavy as a £300m improvement which should properly have been programmed to take place against a background of a two-track railway.

If Old Lodge Lane could be done the way it was, and that's as major as you'll ever get without closing the BML for an extra few weeks for something enormous (Windmill Bridge renewal, perhaps), then almost anything is possible. I was actually onboard a number of services which were affected overnight by that project, and what they were doing without closing the whole route was incredible.

Changes to calling patterns do occur from time to time (diverting via Norwood Junction vice Selhurst, staff trains going to East vice West Croydon, missing out the staff stops at Redhill...) but broadly speaking a stable timetable has been in place for many years alongside maintenance of what has broadly proved to be a safe railway.

 

[Minstral25]

When starting the thread I wasn't best pleased. I moved to within reach of Redhill station over 20 years ago and the 00:14 from Victoria has been a fixture in the timetable since then. I've used it regularly (often from Clapham Junction) and it has always been standing room only most of the way to Redhill.

Having now looked at the alternative its the 00:35 from Blackfriars, which gives me time to get back from Victoria to Blackfriars but arrival at Redhill is 30 minutes later, meaning a much longer journey home (when I've normally been out and have to get up early next morning).

Worse, the connection at Clapham Junction is lost - there is no alternative!

The previous train from Victoria is 23:40, which until last year ran at 23:47 but because it is now early means from most gigs in London which finish just after 11, there is no chance of catching this train. So my journey home is really messed up.

There will only be one train from Blackfriars at 00:35 (as the previous one to Redhill leaves at 19:39 and Purley, Coulsdon at Merstham at 16:34 - all rather large gaps) which means you would only go to Blackfriars for one train - confusing most passengers. Except Fridays and Saturdays when the last train is back at Victoria and the Blackfriars train no longer calls at Redhill Line Stations.

Whilst the decision is probably wise to get the engineering done, the application has no thought for passengers using the trains, at least on the Redhill line as usual. They should have said all Blackfriars services after 9pm call at Coulsdon, Merstham and Redhill so there is a regular service passengers know to go to. Not this bad split stations on different days application. After all that is what they will do in May 2018.

 

[Joe Paxton]

This is bad news.

Reading tsr's posts, it doesn't seem like the extra time for engineering works argument is really justified.

And announcing it with only 15 days notice is really shabby.

Late night public transport is important.

 

[tsr]

When starting the thread I wasn't best pleased. I moved to within reach of Redhill station over 20 years ago and the 00:14 from Victoria has been a fixture in the timetable since then. I've used it regularly (often from Clapham Junction) and it has always been standing room only most of the way to Redhill.

Having now looked at the alternative its the 00:35 from Blackfriars, which gives me time to get back from Victoria to Blackfriars but arrival at Redhill is 30 minutes later, meaning a much longer journey home (when I've normally been out and have to get up early next morning).

Worse, the connection at Clapham Junction is lost - there is no alternative!

The previous train from Victoria is 23:40, which until last year ran at 23:47 but because it is now early means from most gigs in London which finish just after 11, there is no chance of catching this train. So my journey home is really messed up.

There will only be one train from Blackfriars at 00:35 (as the previous one to Redhill leaves at 19:39 and Purley, Coulsdon at Merstham at 16:34 - all rather large gaps) which means you would only go to Blackfriars for one train - confusing most passengers. Except Fridays and Saturdays when the last train is back at Victoria and the Blackfriars train no longer calls at Redhill Line Stations.

Whilst the decision is probably wise to get the engineering done, the application has no thought for passengers using the trains, at least on the Redhill line as usual. They should have said all Blackfriars services after 9pm call at Coulsdon, Merstham and Redhill so there is a regular service passengers know to go to. Not this bad split stations on different days application. After all that is what they will do in May 2018.

All very valid points. Except that I believe the 2347 timing of the last Horsham service has generally been to cater for a replacement bus running in place of the 2347 London Victoria-Oxted service, which usually starts from East Croydon after picking up the relevant passengers from said last Horsham train.

I wonder if, with enough pressure, TL could at least be persuaded to run a consistent 24/7 Bedford-Three Bridges service via Purley and Redhill, merged with their current overnight offering south of Blackfriars, rather than the significant variety of calling patterns their Three Bridges 2W** service group currently has. If Victoria services really are impossible, then at least this would provide a more usable and memorable service to several important local areas. These changes are otherwise one step closer to removing the entirety of overnight public transport from the whole Redhill/Reigate/Merstham/Earlswood conurbation. Soon it will just see a couple of early morning buses to Gatwick, at this rate, which aren't even meant to connect with onward rail travel (and often don't!). A simple Purley-Redhill-Horley bus shuttle every hour or so would be more than achievable during engineering works. Usually, only one bus would be needed, except on the busier weekend and bank holiday nights when more train services might be prioritised anyway.

Obviously there have been hints of this Southern reduction in the making which none of us have really picked up on. I did start to wonder when the isolated middle-of-the-night 0024 and 0048 departures from Redhill were added/carried over (respectively) into the current timetabling arrangements, which of course now makes more sense if the last Southern service from Brighton doesn't run.

Likewise the relatively recent addition of the 0504 Thameslink departure from Redhill on most mornings - if the press release is correct, the train which makes this call, or a similarly timed one, will effectively replace the 0350 from Brighton.

 

[Hophead]

<snip>.. If Victoria services really are impossible, then at least this would provide a more usable and memorable service to several important local areas. These changes are otherwise one step closer to removing the entirety of overnight public transport from the whole Redhill/Reigate/Merstham/Earlswood conurbation. Soon it will just see a couple of early morning buses to Gatwick, at this rate, which aren't even meant to connect with onward rail travel (and often don't!). A simple Purley-Redhill-Horley bus shuttle every hour or so would be more than achievable during engineering works. Usually, only one bus would be needed, except on the busier weekend and bank holiday nights when more train services might be prioritised anyway....<snip>

Can you clarify? Are you talking about rail-replacement connections? The 100 has run 24 hours a day between Redhill, Horley, Gatwick & Crawley since September; the 20 from Horley to Gatwick & Crawley is also a 24/7 service as well now.

 

[Fincra5]

Most of the night TLK services will have additional stops to counteract those called at by the current SN services. Some are extended to Brighton and V/V when they'd usually end at Three Bridges. The 0415, also, will now be a TLK service to Bedford, arriving at Gatwick (and so on) earlier than the SN service did.
With the expansion of the Night Tube, passengers from the Victoria area will be able to travel still via the tube and STP/Blackfriars to Connect to TLK services.
Not sure about the staff calls, like Selhurst was.

 

[tsr]

Can you clarify? Are you talking about rail-replacement connections? The 100 has run 24 hours a day between Redhill, Horley, Gatwick & Crawley since September; the 20 from Horley to Gatwick & Crawley is also a 24/7 service as well now.

The 100 has two long gaps both to and from Redhill overnight, meaning there are effectively just a couple of services between midnight and 5am, although admittedly there is little at Redhill station at that time either (officially or staff stops!).

As for trying to travel from Redhill, Reigate or Merstham into London by public transport, or indeed directly in the other direction (without changing at Gatwick and coming back via some sort of bus), the lack of opportunities seems to put off the house searches of a lot of shift workers I talk to, and I reckon there's other demand there to.

Overall - which is my point, really - there is little in the way of 24/7 service in terms of both buses and trains, and nothing memorable as it stands currently (eg. clockface hourly/half-hourly), let alone after these cuts!

Most of the night TLK services will have additional stops to counteract those called at by the current SN services. Some are extended to Brighton and V/V when they'd usually end at Three Bridges. The 0415, also, will now be a TLK service to Bedford, arriving at Gatwick (and so on) earlier than the SN service did.

Clearly the urgency of the engineering work does not extend to the BML then (which features only double track in a lot of places beyond Three Bridges, of course)!

As I say, this seems like route rationalisation to try to bring as much under TL as possible, really - which doesn't serve all markets as well as the old service!

With the expansion of the Night Tube, passengers from the Victoria area will be able to travel still via the tube and STP/Blackfriars to Connect to TLK services.

How soon will both the Victoria and District/Circle routes (as applicable) be open in the small hours of Monday-Thursday?

If it's not 21 May, it's not great!

Not sure about the staff calls, like Selhurst was.

TL services regularly stop at either Selhurst or Norwood overnight, though there are often problems with getting them stopped at Selhurst if they're diverted away from Norwood due to a late-notice possession/block, and vice versa.

 

[infobleep]

Afternoon all...

This has already been mentioned in the depths of another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143199&page=17) but I feel it worth bringing to people's attention here, given the importance of the BML and its connections to London, Gatwick et al.

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/timetable-changes-may-2017



There had been consistent mutterings for a few weeks (at least) amongst various local staff, but not enough substantial evidence to post on here.

I must say that the London Victoria-Gatwick Airport/Three Bridges trains are rather well used by tourists and shift workers, and regarding their journeys heading southbound, it's not unheard of for these services to be full and standing on Wednesday-Sunday nights. I'm surprised no replacement transport at all will be provided. Permanent replacement buses on overnight services are, I believe, used each night around the Midlands and North of England.

There are a few stops on these trains which don't see many passengers, for example Horley, but some of the busier stops are the worst affected anyway.

Also, expect this to cause one or two cancellations for the first few early mornings after 21 May, as drivers realise they can't get to work on the 0359 from Three Bridges (and its subsequent calls at Horley, Redhill, Purley etc.). Or if the diagrams still require them for crew "passing" moves if they don't get re-planned in time - shuttling crew to and from staff stops at Selhurst is another key use for these overnight trains.

What this indicates to me is that Thameslink might continue to run the vast majority of overnight services required by the TSGN specifications from 2018. They're already ramping up to running (at least) a half-hourly overnight service in places, and have more diversion routes around London than Southern. Unstaffed, wipe-clean trains running through the night... lovely...!

Although there's sure to be a lot of work requiring NR intervention at any given point in the future, the BML between Victoria and Earlswood has to be one of the most flexible routes in the UK for overnight running, with diversions and parallel routes, and opportunities for single-line working (done at least a few times a year) where this is not possible, generally around South Croydon-Coulsdon. I smell rationalisation, really, if you can call it that.

Despite trains being full to standing, they are at there lowest passenger numbers, so they claim.

I assume they are only full and standing due to there not being as many trains running overnight.

I wonder if there are any parts of Sunday where the trains are not so busy. Maybe if this is such a good idea, they could extended to other time periods. An extended buffer into Monday morning before the commuters start travelling.

 

[tsr]

Despite trains being full to standing, they are at there lowest passenger numbers, so they claim.

I assume they are only full and standing due to there not being as many trains running overnight.

You are broadly correct.

The 0100 and 0452 departures from Victoria are prime candidates, but increasingly the other ones also.

This does not just apply to weekends.

 

[infobleep]

The existing BML is pretty flexible, with numerous crossovers and/or single line working areas in use for overnight engineering on pretty much every night of the year, and only rare full closures, where (up until now) buses have been used. The TL services will use the very same routes as the current Southern services between Windmill Bridge Jn and Three Bridges, and if they're using the BML overnight just as much (see the press release), the same tracks on that bit as well. They do have a few more diversions around South London - but as and when they start to permanently run via London Bridge, they'll have to have replacements available if they divert away.

As I posted in the thread of my own which I accidentally created, this seems to be rationalisation which will handily also allow a few more works to be carried out between Streatham Common Junction and Victoria (approximately four vice two tracks at a time, when the early morning ECS moves don't need to run), and that's about it.

If it's about rationalisation, why don't they just say that or will passengers not understand a word as long as rationalisation?

 

[radamfi]

Can you clarify? Are you talking about rail-replacement connections? The 100 has run 24 hours a day between Redhill, Horley, Gatwick & Crawley since September; the 20 from Horley to Gatwick & Crawley is also a 24/7 service as well now.

The 20 is only 24/7 south of Gatwick.

 

[Minstral25]

All very valid points. Except that I believe the 2347 timing of the last Horsham service has generally been to cater for a replacement bus running in place of the 2347 London Victoria-Oxted service, which usually starts from East Croydon after picking up the relevant passengers from said last Horsham train..

It was always 23:47 and the last Oxted was 23:40 - in the last two years they were swapped over and the Horsham runs later when there is engineering work on Oxted line.

The swap also meant the late train from London Bridge lost its connection at East Croydon to the Horsham meaning a 35 minute wait at East Croydon.

I wonder if, with enough pressure, TL could at least be persuaded to run a consistent 24/7 Bedford-Three Bridges service via Purley and Redhill, merged with their current overnight offering south of Blackfriars, rather than the significant variety of calling patterns their Three Bridges 2W** service group currently has.
.

Pretty sure that is happening anyway next May but this early change has created lots of inconvenience in the mean time.

I think there is a general plan to move people away from Victoria on the Redhill route (next year all services will take 12 minutes longer each way and many trains will be removed from the timetable), but as one of the many passengers who use the connections at Clapham Junction far more than any London Bridge/Thameslink service I find my life increasingly disadvantaged.

in 2012, there were 4 trains per hour from Victoria and Clapham Junction to Redhill all evenings, now there are just 2 with extended journey times already which will be even worse in 2018 and now not running as late. Awful situation.

 

[WelshBluebird]

With the expansion of the Night Tube, passengers from the Victoria area will be able to travel still via the tube and STP/Blackfriars to Connect to TLK services.

Not Sunday-Thursday they won't be able to!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Despite trains being full to standing, they are at there lowest passenger numbers, so they claim.

I assume they are only full and standing due to there not being as many trains running overnight.

Maybe a lot of those passengers are not contributing to the company's revenue so in their eyes the passenger numbers are lower.

 

[infobleep]

Not Sunday-Thursday they won't be able to!

You might be right. When questions have been asked about providing later trains on South West Trains, people have said whose going to pay for it and what about the maintenance.

Maybe the maintenance isn't such an issue here but whose paying for the trains to run is.

If one is really not happy I guess they could contact the DfT. I assume they can respond to FOIs, even during the election build up.

 

[Ze Random One]

Having looked at the timetables, this means that the last journey opportunities for some will be an hour earlier. Currently, those heading to SW London and SWML destinations have a final connection from Gatwick departing 0015, changing at East Croydon and Clapham for the 0115 final train down the SWML. From this new timetable, I believe the 2313 ex Gatwick will be the last train to Clapham.
As for the suburban service, nobody south of the river should have a post-midnight train service. I mean, a last train of 2345 has been standard for Thameslink southern suburban customers for years, so now BML compadres can share the joy that GTR bringeth.
Blackfriars is a terrible destination for those with onward travel needs or unsure of the city. Big taxi rank? No. Comprehensive night bus network stopping outside? No. Nearby late night facilities/café? No.
And of course the only other station that could offer an equivalent service level, St Pancras, is not a valid destination for those with London Terminals tickets from south of the river.