GTR Southern ceasing to run late night trains Sun-Thurs from 21 May

[Muzer]

Apart from the ones who get caught out by the change, how many will actually need to do so. I don't recall Victoria being at the heart of London's nightlife.

The City certainly isn't though!

 

[30907]

The City certainly isn't though!

Quite, but I'd bet the vast majority will head direct to Blackfriars from their chosen venue.

 

[455refurb]

The whole thing is ludicrous and the fact that it has been implemented with precious little notice just underlines how little thought has been given to the needs of passengers. A good friend of mine works in a restaurant near Victoria and rarely, if ever, gets out before midnight. This will add at minimum, 30 mins to his commute home and cost him at least £1.50 a night more, or around £30 a month, that will of course not be reimbursed by the TOC. I will be similarly affected at times, as a shift worker, but I'm fortunate that my employer lays on transport that I have the option to use.

I fail to understand either, the real benefit of this move to Blackfriars given the 'cover story' of increased maintenance needs on the BML. Will these TL services not be using the same BML south of East Croydon?

Also, the switch to TL will rob these trains of GTR's beloved OBS's at a time when they are arguably needed most. So much for GTR/DfT's apparent desire to deliver an "improved customer experience".

This is about rationalisation and cost cutting. I don't doubt that the work needs to be done but there must be a better way than this.

 

[theironroad]

The whole thing is ludicrous and the fact that it has been implemented with precious little notice just underlines how little thought has been given to the needs of passengers. A good friend of mine works in a restaurant near Victoria and rarely, if ever, gets out before midnight. This will add at minimum, 30 mins to his commute home and cost him at least £1.50 a night more, or around £30 a month, that will of course not be reimbursed by the TOC. I will be similarly affected at times, as a shift worker, but I'm fortunate that my employer lays on transport that I have the option to use.

I fail to understand either, the real benefit of this move to Blackfriars given the 'cover story' of increased maintenance needs on the BML. Will these TL services not be using the same BML south of East Croydon?

Also, the switch to TL will rob these trains of GTR's beloved OBS's at a time when they are arguably needed most. So much for GTR/DfT's apparent desire to deliver an "improved customer experience".

This is about rationalisation and cost cutting. I don't doubt that the work needs to be done but there must be a better way than this.

I agree with most of what you say, but why do you think the TOC should be liable for any extra travel costs for a service they are not proposing to deliver?

 

[455refurb]

I agree with most of what you say, but why do you think the TOC should be liable for any extra travel costs for a service they are not proposing to deliver?

Apologies, to re-phrase what I meant: the TOC won't of course be liable, therefore, the extra travel costs must be borne by the passenger. Which will be hard for some.

 

[Minstral25]

I agree with most of what you say, but why do you think the TOC should be liable for any extra travel costs for a service they are not proposing to deliver?

Because for the last 20 plus years they have provided a train from Victoria and Clapham Junction, this both popular, well used and relied upon

NR should of course compensate the TOC for the passengers if it is indeed them

 

[87015]

Slight problem: the last trains are the ones that get in the way of the engineering work.

I did wonder whether Victoria-Herne Hill-Crystal Palace-Windmill Bridge Jn would be workable though.

Well the engineering documentation for the first weeks of the new timetable are now published and the amount of overnight all-line blocks via Clapham is a big ZERO.

GTR press machine never to be questioned of course.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm sure that planned blocks is not the point of this - the point is to allow unplanned maintenance to be done each night such that the daytime service is more reliable.

Don't forget also that this is late notice - has there been time to get the engineering documentation in place yet?

 

[bengley]

There's now (will be) a 2340 from Bedford to Brighton. So there is a later service. Not quite 1am I'd have thought but not far off. Currently the last Bedford to Brighton is 2310.

The last Bedford to Brighton is 22:22

 

[Fincra5]

The last Bedford to Brighton is 22:22

The 23:40 from Bedford WILL be extended to Brighton.

 

[theageofthetra]

The City certainly isn't though!

Has been a big change the last 5 years- the City has become popular for going out with quite a few clubs up there. Thursday is the night for after work drinks these days with plenty travelling up from the suburbs on Fri/ Sat to the City & neighbouring Old St/Shoreditch

 

[Bookd]

Because for the last 20 plus years they have provided a train from Victoria and Clapham Junction, this both popular, well used and relied upon

NR should of course compensate the TOC for the passengers if it is indeed them

Would part of the issue being that if a scheduled service is cancelled for engineering work the TOC would have to provide an alternative of some sort; if it is no longer in the timetable it is your problem, so hard luck!

 

[Ze Random One]

It also seems that GTR is being allowed to get away with reneging on their contractual commitments without penalty, yet again. Their service level commitment, which forms part of their contract with the DfT, and hence the citizens, is littered with statements like

2. MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS
...
2.11 Between 0030 and 0100 one additional service shall be provided from
London Victoria to East Croydon calling at stations in Paragraph 1.1.

If engineering access hours are being changed, then they are entitled to replace these service with a replacement bus, but a wholesale cancellation requires an amendment to their contract.

My main beef, really, is the entirely ham-fisted way this has been done. Victoria is a hub station for the West End. A lot of service-industry jobs finish at midnight. Croydon and environs are one of the few parts of London that service-industry employees can afford to live. There has been absolutely no thought into mitigation for the loss of connectivity.
Even simple things like making the (currently Friday night only) 2345 and 0007 services 7 day services would mitigate some of the pain

 

[Ze Random One]

To add to that, I do not understand why later trains cannot go via Herne Hill, since overnight Thameslink services go that way.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm surprised NR/GTR/DfT arer getting away with cancelling Thursday night services. Thursday has become the new Friday in many parts of London it seems and now trains are busier on Thursdays than Fridays.

 

[TUC]

What is unclear to me is how GTR has been able to put through such a significant timetable change at such short notice. Usually, franchise requirements would surely preclude such an approach.

 

[A Challenge]

It also seems that GTR is being allowed to get away with reneging on their contractual commitments without penalty, yet again. Their service level commitment, which forms part of their contract with the DfT, and hence the citizens, is littered with statements like


If engineering access hours are being changed, then they are entitled to replace these service with a replacement bus, but a wholesale cancellation requires an amendment to their contract.

My main beef, really, is the entirely ham-fisted way this has been done. Victoria is a hub station for the West End. A lot of service-industry jobs finish at midnight. Croydon and environs are one of the few parts of London that service-industry employees can afford to live. There has been absolutely no thought into mitigation for the loss of connectivity.
Even simple things like making the (currently Friday night only) 2345 and 0007 services 7 day services would mitigate some of the pain

Where can I find the service level commitment (for all TOCs)?

 

[Fincra5]

To add to that, I do not understand why later trains cannot go via Herne Hill, since overnight Thameslink services go that way.

I don't think any SN or GX driver signs via the "3 Hills" anymore. Gatwick blokes had it taken off them when they signed down to Brighton.

So you'd end up with TLK pilots, IF, they sign that route too.

 

[Ze Random One]

Where can I find the service level commitment (for all TOCs)?

DfT Website

 

[Ze Random One]

I don't think any SN or GX driver signs via the "3 Hills" anymore. Gatwick blokes had it taken off them when they signed down to Brighton.

So you'd end up with TLK pilots, IF, they sign that route too.

So... The only reasonable alternative route into Victoria for when Clapham/Balham is closed... is no longer signed by SN/GX crews... Another piece of quality planning from GTR. 7 Day Railway really caught on south of the river...

 

[Fincra5]

So... The only reasonable alternative route into Victoria for when Clapham/Balham is closed... is no longer signed by SN/GX crews... Another piece of quality planning from GTR. 7 Day Railway really caught on south of the river...

IT was a desire decision IMO.

 

[Ze Random One]

IT was a desire decision IMO.

A desire decision?
As in SN don't want to serve Victoria? Or SN want to give up and go home the moment there are engineering works at Clapham Junction?

 

[physics34]

I don't think any SN or GX driver signs via the "3 Hills" anymore. Gatwick blokes had it taken off them when they signed down to Brighton.

So you'd end up with TLK pilots, IF, they sign that route too.

think Norwood still do....

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think any SN or GX driver signs via the "3 Hills" anymore. Gatwick blokes had it taken off them when they signed down to Brighton.

So you'd end up with TLK pilots, IF, they sign that route too.

think Norwood still do....

Some Southern staff must sign via Herne Hill because quite a few empty stock workings go that way.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...9/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN

 

[Fincra5]

think Norwood still do....

You might be right there... Forgot about Norwood!

 

[Deepgreen]

If we are not allowed to see it, why are TOCs? After all people working for them are allowed to vote too!

Talking of the election(s), recent results have seemingly proved that the Tory government can inflict any amount of pain (via GTR control) upon its SE fan base without risking them changing their voting patterns!

 

[physics34]

You might be right there... Forgot about Norwood!

yeh Norwood link 1.

One of the sets of empties from Watford in the evening used to go that way i think...

 

[Mag_seven]

Southern have just given notice that late night trains from Victoria will be axed from 17th May. Last train will depart at 00:07 to Eastbourne. Why Eastbourne I have no idea. Late night services on suburban stations and along the Redhill line are just abandoned.

Try living in the North:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2983268&postcount=9

 

[causton]

Try living in the North:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2983268&postcount=9

And if they made your last train three or four hours earlier with less than a month's notice, you would be angry too.

Let's face it, whether your line gets 6 trains an hour or 6 trains a day, the way these trains have just been axed with no viable replacement for some journeys is worrying!

 

[Deepgreen]

Try living in the North:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2983268&postcount=9

The issue is not about the relative levels of service, which is indisputable - it's about the existing service and the notice given of significant changes to what many will regard as a vital element of it (i.e. last trains).