Guardian columnist suggests vandalising Southern stations

[wingsoveryorks]

Poly Toynbee is known to fire from the hip. She was using expressions to highlight a point. I doubt she really wants people to vandalise ticket machines, but she was using expressive speech in her own unique and passionate way.

Look closer at what she was actually getting at, the whole picture. She is right. We are a nation who have come to accept our lot and just take it. Southern commuters are getting hit from the rail staff, the rail staff are getting hit from the company, and no doubt the company is being leaned on by the government.

What she was saying is that it is time we stopped being cannon fodder for every government department that wants to foist it's ideology on us.

Excellent piece as always by Polly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Poly Toynbee is known to fire from the hip. She was using expressions to highlight a point. I doubt she really wants people to vandalise ticket machines, but she was using expressive speech in her own unique and passionate way.

Look closer at what she was actually getting at, the whole picture. She is right. We are a nation who have come to accept our lot and just take it. Southern commuters are getting hit from the rail staff, the rail staff are getting hit from the company, and no doubt the company is being leaned on by the government.

What she was saying is that it is time we stopped being cannon fodder for every government department that wants to foist it's ideology on us.

Excellent piece as always by Polly.

I wonder what a prosecution counsel, well versed in matters of law, would make of that naïve and simplistic statement as that shown above, noting that the actual offending words had already been committed to print.

Freedom of the Press is one matter. Freedom to exhort criminal damage in the written word is a totally different matter.

 

[Deepgreen]

Polly Toynbee is an utter gob. I can't stand the drivel she writes in the Grauniad (a paper I otherwise quite like). She is one of that variety of socialist who has absolutely no foundation in reality of any of her ideas.

FWIW, is there an offence of incitement to criminal damage? If so......

So you don't imagine that her summarisation of the current shambles has any basis in reality? I think it very much has. I also wonder how long it will be before some serious action is taken by the travelling public, perhaps in the sober and cold light of the new year, when the prospect of a long winter of chaos ahead becomes too much to bear. Possible incitement to criminal damage notwithstanding, things can, and will, not go on as they are for much longer, even in genteel Surrey and Sussex.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder what a prosecution counsel, well versed in matters of law, would make of that naïve and simplistic statement as that shown above, noting that the actual offending words had already been committed to print.

Freedom of the Press is one matter. Freedom to exhort criminal damage in the written word is a totally different matter.

Would you like to point out where it's actually being exhorted then Paul? If the article has actually broken some law, as you have tried to imply even though you can't explain how it has exactly several times now, why hasn't it been taken down or ammended?

You clearly haven't read or if so understood the article. The wider point is clearly expressed and I think is probably quite close to the mark.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you don't imagine that her summarisation of the current shambles has any basis in reality? I think it very much has.

I couldn't agree more. Her analysis is a lot more careful and closer to the truth than most posters on these boards!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would you like to point out where it's actually being exhorted then Paul?

If you look at the quote on the very first posting on this thread, unless my mind is frequenting a parallel universe, I am sure that I read the following..
"Gluing all Southern ticket machines on every station to deny them ticket revenue"

Perhaps my post-stroke condition is having a cognitive relapse, for heaven help me if those words are NOT shown on the quote of the very first posting on the thread...

I know it is said that "there is no fool like an old fool", so being a septuagenarian of 71 years, I urgently require confirmation of the veracity stated in my posting to which is so alluded.

 

[Deepgreen]

If you look at the quote on the very first posting on this thread, unless my mind is frequenting a parallel universe, I am sure that I read the following..
"Gluing all Southern ticket machines on every station to deny them ticket revenue"

Perhaps my post-stroke condition is having a cognitive relapse, for heaven help me if those words are NOT shown on the quote of the very first posting on the thread...

I know it is said that "there is no fool like an old fool", so being a septuagenarian of 71 years, I urgently require confirmation of the veracity stated in my posting to which is so alluded.

It was actually "...glueing..."

I think there's an extremely fine line between actually exhorting such action and suggesting it as an example of the sort of action that MIGHT be undertaken IF civil unrest WERE to occur. I'm not really sure whether that line has been crossed here. It also calls into question the whole issue of when (if ever) unrest is needed to bring about change. Historically, most deep-seated dissatisfaction with authority has led to some form of disobedience. However, not least for reasons of coherence, that debate probably lies somewhere other than this thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was actually "...glueing..."

I think there's an extremely fine line between actually exhorting such action and suggesting it as an example of the sort of action that MIGHT be undertaken IF civil unrest WERE to occur. I'm not really sure whether that line has been crossed here. It also calls into question the whole issue of when (if ever) unrest is needed to bring about change. Historically, most deep-seated dissatisfaction with authority has led to some form of disobedience. However, not least for reasons of coherence, that debate probably lies somewhere other than this thread.

Firstly, I apologise on behalf of my spellchecker...

Can you see a difference between forms of disobedience and criminal damage. I suppose the actions of the Luddites which led to criminal damage to property of others being so perpetrated by them was one that would have been claimed by some as being justified as being part of an idealistic scenario.

Was not the term "gentle vandalism" used in the article which perhaps some of the current crop of mindless vandals who actually do commit such acts would be worthy of discussion in legal terms by their defence lawyers when the said miscreants appear before a Court of Law.

 

[daikilo]

Firstly, I apologise on behalf of my spellchecker...

Can you see a difference between forms of disobedience and criminal damage. I suppose the actions of the Luddites which led to criminal damage to property of others being so perpetrated by them was one that would have been claimed by some as being justified as being part of an idealistic scenario.

Was not the term "gentle vandalism" used in the article which perhaps some of the current crop of mindless vandals who actually do commit such acts would be worthy of discussion in legal terms by their defence lawyers when the said miscreants appear before a Court of Law.

Paul, I am sure you wrote this tongue in cheek as probably did the journalist, but there is a huge difference between civil disobedience and vandalism. Explaining to a judge that you didn't pay because the company had caused you financtial hardship by cancelling trains (with evidence) is not the same as vandalising the companies property so that no-one can pay.

Personally, I think the Telegraph should not have printed the incriminating words as technically they are an incitation to commit wilful damage. Whether a judge would uphold a claim by someone that they did the damage because the paper suggested it is I would say unlikely.

That Southern might raise a case against the Telegraph is plausible and I suspect could end them with at worst a fine and at best just an insertion stating that "they regret having printed the words and that to act on them would be perfoming criminal damage".

 

[Phil.]

Hang on, when did the Telegraph get involved?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you don't imagine that her summarisation of the current shambles has any basis in reality? I think it very much has. I also wonder how long it will be before some serious action is taken by the travelling public, perhaps in the sober and cold light of the new year, when the prospect of a long winter of chaos ahead becomes too much to bear. Possible incitement to criminal damage notwithstanding, things can, and will, not go on as they are for much longer, even in genteel Surrey and Sussex.

This one is surprisingly balanced for her, and it would stand fine without the incitement to criminal damage. In any case, glueing up ticket machines would have no effect on the overall issue, so it's not only illegal but worthless.

 

[ivanhoe]

Poly Toynbee is known to fire from the hip. She was using expressions to highlight a point. I doubt she really wants people to vandalise ticket machines, but she was using expressive speech in her own unique and passionate way.

Look closer at what she was actually getting at, the whole picture. She is right. We are a nation who have come to accept our lot and just take it. Southern commuters are getting hit from the rail staff, the rail staff are getting hit from the company, and no doubt the company is being leaned on by the government.

What she was saying is that it is time we stopped being cannon fodder for every government department that wants to foist it's ideology on us.

Excellent piece as always by Polly.

Good post.

 

[daikilo]

Hang on, when did the Telegraph get involved?

My appologies, please read the Guardian.

 

[SPADTrap]

Look closer at what she was actually getting at, the whole picture. She is right. We are a nation who have come to accept our lot and just take it. Southern commuters are getting hit from the rail staff, the rail staff are getting hit from the company, and no doubt the company is being leaned on by the government.

You're looking so close you've missed the point, the unions are refusing to accept their lot and take it, something the rest of the people should be praising! :roll: But wait, the papers told me I don't need to..

 

[highdyke]

You're looking so close you've missed the point, the unions are refusing to accept their lot and take it, something the rest of the people should be praising! :roll: But wait, the papers told me I don't need to..

Some people can see the big picture without reading any of the bloody papers...

Others need to get out of the bubble they reside.

 

[pemma]

Firstly, I apologise on behalf of my spellchecker...

Can you see a difference between forms of disobedience and criminal damage. I suppose the actions of the Luddites which led to criminal damage to property of others being so perpetrated by them was one that would have been claimed by some as being justified as being part of an idealistic scenario.

Was not the term "gentle vandalism" used in the article which perhaps some of the current crop of mindless vandals who actually do commit such acts would be worthy of discussion in legal terms by their defence lawyers when the said miscreants appear before a Court of Law.

A couple of months ago Theresa May said in parliament she would be willing to deploy a nuclear deterrent for what she thought was a good cause even if it resulted in the loss of live of innocent civilians. If Trump or Putin were to deploy a nuclear deterrent which killed innocent civilians for what they thought was good cause but the rest of the world didn't could they claim May incited them by saying she would be willing to do it and that May should be charged? If not why then why is a conversion ongoing about why a newspaper columnist hinting at someone substantially less serious in a lighthearted way could face criminal charges for doing so?

 

[najaB]

A couple of months ago Theresa May said in parliament she would be willing to deploy a nuclear deterrent for what she thought was a good cause even if it resulted in the loss of live of innocent civilians. If Drumpf or Putin were to deploy a nuclear deterrent which killed innocent civilians for what they thought was good cause but the rest of the world didn't could they claim May incited them by saying she would be willing to do it and that May should be charged? If not why then why is a conversion ongoing about why a newspaper columnist hinting at someone substantially less serious in a lighthearted way could face criminal charges for doing so?

Nice strawman. One of the tests for an incitement prosecution to be successful is "How likely is it that someone would perform the action being encouraged?"

Superglue is widely available. Nuclear weapons are a little harder to come by

 

[route:oxford]

Vandalism really isn't necessary.

All you need is a sheet of A4 that says "out of order", sellotape it to a ticket machine screen and most people would believe it.

 

[fowler9]

Perhaps she assumes the readers are intelligent enough to know the difference between a serious comment and a facetious comment? After all it's not aimed at people who would prefer to read a tabloid to a broadsheet.

Some Daily Mail readers voted for Brexit without knowing what countries are and aren't in Europe!

The Daily Mail is a funny one, they had a comment piece today about an area of Sheffield saying that even the Muslim Community don't want Eastern European immigration and then seamlessly switched to Muslims not integrating. Anyway, that is off topic. Ha ha. It is a rag.

As for Polly Toynbee, she isn't my favourite journalist but I don't think she was calling for some kind of Southern Railways Kristallnacht, she was just commenting on how she was surprised that the British don't kick off more. Perhaps she could have worded it better but it would take a rather nasty authoritarian government to lock her up for saying it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for Polly Toynbee, she isn't my favourite journalist but I don't think she was calling for some kind of Southern Railways Kristallnacht, she was just commenting on how she was surprised that the British don't kick off more. Perhaps she could have worded it better but it would take a rather nasty authoritarian government to lock her up for saying it.

Is not Polly Toynbee an experienced national newspaper journalist with the full and certain knowledge of how the printed word can be viewed by readers of that newspaper and not one who needs members of this website to make excuses on her behalf?

Perhaps from a brief reading of her journalistic style could well give people the impression that she is the person who makes the drafts of those now-infamous RMT press releases...

 

[fowler9]

Is not Polly Toynbee an experienced national newspaper journalist with the full and certain knowledge of how the printed word can be viewed by readers of that newspaper and not one who needs members of this website to make excuses on her behalf?

Perhaps from a brief reading of her journalistic style could well give people the impression that she is the person who makes the drafts of those now-infamous RMT press releases...

Ha ha, I get your meaning but I doubt a load of Guardian readers are going to start gluing up ticket machines because Polly Toynbee made them do it.

 

[broadgage]

Vandalism really isn't necessary.

All you need is a sheet of A4 that says "out of order", sellotape it to a ticket machine screen and most people would believe it.

Would customers be liable for a penalty fare if the ticket office was shut, and they failed to use the ticket machine due to such a notice ?

 

[fowler9]

Would customers be liable for a penalty fare if the ticket office was shut, and they failed to use the ticket machine due to such a notice ?

I have often wondered that at a station near where I live when the shutters are down and there is a sign saying that the member of staff is performing other duties (Gone to Tesco). If I got pulled without a ticket and they phone the station and he is back of course he isn't going to say he went to Tesco. Just a thought.

 

[kieron]

Is not Polly Toynbee an experienced national newspaper journalist with the full and certain knowledge of how the printed word can be viewed by readers of that newspaper and not one who needs members of this website to make excuses on her behalf?

She is, but you don't, based on what you've put, appear to be someone who reads that newspaper, or even who read that article. She doesn't need to worry what you think about a fragment of a piece she wrote.

 

[Andrewlong]

Just read the article to see what the fuss was about and she does ramble on. Pretty dreadful and confusing article.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

She is, but you don't, based on what you've put, appear to be someone who reads that newspaper, or even who read that article. She doesn't need to worry what you think about a fragment of a piece she wrote.

It was what was physically committed to print by Polly Townbee in that "fragment of a piece" that is what has caused this thread discussion to take place.

 

[fowler9]

It was what was physically committed to print by Polly Townbee in that "fragment of a piece" that is what has caused this thread discussion to take place.

The thing is if you just read a fragment of a piece you could end up taking the entire thing out of context.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

I see there a suggestion of what might be needed for the government to take action...

 

[Starmill]

Vandalism really isn't necessary.

All you need is a sheet of A4 that says "out of order", sellotape it to a ticket machine screen and most people would believe it.

I'm surprised this hasn't started happening!

Remarkable idea. Not really criminal, but the customers really can't be PFd and there would be a significant increase in ticketless travel.

It would work best at part time and unstaffed stations.

 

[infobleep]

I've seen that sort of thing several times on trains lately, though it has to be said that the graffiti contained similar sentiments without the swearing.

It may well be that regular graffiti culprits are taking this upon themselves as a new idea to disfigure rolling stock, but if it happens to be regular commuters who are only doing it to spite their local TOC (and I can't say either way) it is totally counter-productive as a means of protest. Any offensive language within graffiti on train interiors could result in that area of the train being locked out, and in extreme cases or if on the outside, the whole unit(s) may be withdrawn from service. I have withdrawn trains, coaches and compartments due to vandalism which could have caused discomfort or offence, and many of my colleagues would do the same. This, of course, results in a rather worse service for the masses...

I object to the withdrawing of rolling stock due to graffiti unless it's any type of graffiti inside or outside. What I object to is that only certain types of graffiti get rolling stocked taken out of use.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A couple of months ago Theresa May said in parliament she would be willing to deploy a nuclear deterrent for what she thought was a good cause even if it resulted in the loss of live of innocent civilians. If Trump or Putin were to deploy a nuclear deterrent which killed innocent civilians for what they thought was good cause but the rest of the world didn't could they claim May incited them by saying she would be willing to do it and that May should be charged? If not why then why is a conversion ongoing about why a newspaper columnist hinting at someone substantially less serious in a lighthearted way could face criminal charges for doing so?

May has parliamentary privilege when speaking in the house so wouldn't be prosecuted. Same goes for all MPs.

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