Guardian: "Penalised train passengers fight ticketing rules"

[CNash]

I am sure some staff do themselves no favours, and come over as rude and arrogant (and in need for further training) and we've got staff saying as much here. However, the vast majority of staff I've encountered over the years are incredibly polite to passengers, and I've seen more than my fair share of obvious dodgers getting let off with a warning or given the benefit of the doubt.

Yes - something I neglected to mention previously is that 50% of my encounters with guards or RPIs have been quite positive, while the other 50% have been negative. So it's not the case that every staff member acts like an authoritarian martinet. Mind you, I have only had two such encounters...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So to avoid any more assumptions; if my idea of "doing the right thing" is different to yours... please tell me what it is!....

I have.

....Imo, the right thing to do was wait/queue at the station and find out the information I needed to know from the outset, not go and find a food outlet first....

....Unlikely as (at that time) there were no East Coast trains in he station. But the answer is simple, I'd have said "you told us the train was cancelled"....

Well, as I said, I wasn't there. They would have announced the train before it left though, but you wouldn't have been there to hear it, maybe you see that as your fault, maybe not, maybe you think they should allow you to travel even though you weren't there and hadn't attempted to find out what was happening, maybe not.

....You might have chosen to queue up first that situation - and I won't criticise you for it. When the station is a scrum and very overcrowded, I don't think that making arrangements for my own comfort (popping to the loo and buying some food) is unreasonable in the circumstances - and I'm glad to see that other posters in this thread agree with me.

Popping to the loo I could understand to an extent, but not buying food.

 

[158801]

Customer Service !? I ALWAYS deliver top customer service !

If I'm on a platform I will always help the person who asks - even if this means delaying the train the I am on.

If they have luggage I will always offer to carry it for them. Unfortunately I have only been at work for 5 weeks out of the last year as I pulled my back when I helped someone with as case that must have weighed 150Kg.

Bike - well,what can I say. The more the merrier. What's a bit of oil on someones coat or a pair of ripped trousers when they try to manouver via the fifteenth bike (we are allowed 2 officially) that is in the doorway. The cyclists love me. I encourage repeat business by never turning them away.

If I'm about to depart (close doors etc) and I see someone running I will always wait for them. Once I waited and waited and waited and left 11 minutes late. Those 15 people were most grateful that I had delayed the train for 11 minutes to wait for them. After all, I saved them waiting 4 minutes for the next one.

Then, when we had departed 11 minutes late I spend the next 60 minutes helping the other 108 passengers who were going to miss connections because we were 11 minutes late (well 23 mins actually 'cause we got stuck behind a stopper !)

One of the passengers who was late was a little old lady (about 90) so I let her sit in First class. I made sure everyone knew about my generosity as well and I loudly proclaimed "Sit here love. You've got a £5 Advance ticket for the next train in Standard accommodation so don't walk through the train with you luggage. Have a nice big seat with complimentary refreshments that are worth more than what you paid for your ticket".

I then excelled and spend another 10 minutes offering "Your View" leaflets out to the other 10 people in First Class who had paid £100 each.

One woman had her feet on the seat. I couldn't say anything could I ? I may have upset her and she may never have travelled again.

Then, at the next station a woman wanted to being on board 8 suitcases. Now we all know that the NRCoC state that this is over the limit. Had I had charged her she wouldn't have travelled again.

When we got to the airport a man got on with ski's. I asked him who he had flown with. He replied "Ryanair". He told me that they had charged £35 for the ski's. When I asked him to pay £5 he started shouting at me so I let him off. I thought "if I charge him he will never travel by train again".

A man had a "Virgin Only" ticket. I welcomed him with open arms and explained that whilst he had only paid £6 - everyone else on the train has spend £11. I told him to sit back, relax and enjoy the journey. I'm sure he will travel with my TOC again.

It's a good job I always carry lots of comments cards as the four people who were having stand in the adjacent doorway weren't happy that someone with an invalid ticket got a seat whilst they had paid for this company and had to stand.

Not do be outdone I upgraded them to 1st Class. Another four people who will always come back. !

At the next station I had to give more comment cards out as 3 First Class passenger joined and couldn't get a seat !

I was on a peak hour train and found someone with an Off Peak ticket. In fact he had five of them - one for every day this week. I was about to charge him but then thought, if I charge him an extra £4 to upgarde his ticket (so he is paying the same as everyone else) he may never travel by train again. So I let him off. Another repeat customer.

Finally, someone had a ticket for a train two hours later. I let them off. More repeat business.

I managed to give my last comment form out to a passenger with an Advance ticket who had been waiting three hours for their train and they weren't happy that they had to wait but "that man" was being allowed to train 2 hours early without penalty.

You see, all of my customers will come back for more.

 

[transmanche]

Well, as I said, I wasn't there.

That's true.

Imo, the right thing to do was wait/queue at the station and find out the information I needed to know from the outset, not go and find a food outlet first....

Except I never said that going to a food outlet was the "right" thing to do, I said it was "a reasonable" thing to do. So why did you claim I said something that I didn't? Actually don't bother, I'm not interested in your justification.

IPopping to the loo I could understand to an extent, but not buying food.

Well it's gratifying that everyone has your permission to do that!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Customer Service !? I ALWAYS deliver top customer service !
[...]
You see, all of my customers will come back for more.

Another straw man argument.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Except I never said that going to a food outlet was the "right" thing to do, I said it was "a reasonable" thing to do....

Really? I must have misunderstood when you posted:

....If it's the kind of treatment that customers receive when trying to do the right thing, then no wonder so many passengers don't bother and just chance it onboard!....

Perhaps you should elaborate, actually, maybe you shouldn't.

....Well it's gratifying that everyone has your permission to do that!....

Who said anything about gaining my permission?

 

[GadgetMan]

I've gotta be honest, as the train in transmanche's case was cancelled anyway. I don't see a problem with him avoiding the queue by doing something more productive with his time.

It's also nice to hear of someone make the effort to seek advice as to what the railway expects them to do in his position rather than be unsure and chance it on the next train (although in this situation it would be absolutely fine in most cases).

I still don't believe the rules need to be altered, staff are given discretion and should not be afraid to use it when they see fit. However, in my case I like to ask some basic questions about their journey before I decide on how I'm going to deal with it, what you will find in the majority of PR disasters is that the passenger has failed the attitude test. When a passenger is at fault with a Advance ticket they need to appreciate any discretion shown will be a bonus, and not a right. And when they start throwing the smirk remarks around early on in the conversation it usually seals their fate.

 

[Skymonster]

I've gotta be honest, as the train in transmanche's case was cancelled anyway. I don't see a problem with him avoiding the queue by doing something more productive with his time

Absolutely! Whether he arrived at the station in time for the train or not is irrelevent as his train was cancelled - in such cases no one is ever going to prove whether or not the passenger arrived in time for the booked train.

From NR - Ts&Cs for Advance tickets

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

No where does it say passengers must immediately line up at a ticket office - if there's time before the "next available train(s) I can't see anything whatsoever wrong with going to find some food first... The guy in the ticket office at KX was just being a prat!

Andy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS: Nigel Harris did a good leader on this whole ticketing / conditions mess, very supportive of PF's recent proposals for standardisation / code of practice, in the current issue of Rail magazine. Good to see some people that are essentially on the industry's side are saying things need to change!

 

[CNash]

Customer Service !? I ALWAYS deliver top customer service !
(snip)
You see, all of my customers will come back for more.

I hope you had fun writing all of that...

As has been repeatedly explained in this topic, good customer service does not mean bowing to the customer's every whim. Sounds like you don't understand what good customer service actually is...

 

[AlterEgo]

Another straw man argument.

Well, that's true, although some of the analogies are valid.

What's important is that people are treated fairly - and that's quite different to simply choosing the option that will hack off that individual customer the least.

As 158801 does correctly illustrate, is that there is often a wider impact to consider when delivering customer service on the railway. If there is a customer on the train who has an Off Peak ticket when it is not valid, it is incredibly unfair to the other 399 customers on the train to simply allow it. Provided there is not a compelling reason not to charge the customer the excess, then the charge should be made.

I don't wish to dissect 158801's analogies in detail as I feel some of them are valid and some aren't - and anyone on this forum who knows me will know how much I hate analogies.

What is if course more important is that the pricing structure of the railway is made more transparent and intuitive. This represents a huge challenge for ATOC and those who work in the industry.

The current situation with complicated fares has actually arisen precisely because the railway has tried to cater for everyone. The ticketing system is abundantly simple with just three main ticket types - but it's the masses of minor amendments and promotional tickets that actually make it complicated.

Look at the hundreds and hundreds of easements there are for example - or read through the Off Peak restriction codes. There are simply masses of examples of "ticket not valid before 0900 EXCEPT people boarding at a, b, and c stations" etc.

It's because drawing simple lines and applying hard and fast rules simply draws criticism from the passenger. As the railway has tried to cater to each eventuality, this adds layers and layers of complexity to what ought to be a simple fares structure.

An example of a transparent fares structure would be for a company like East Coast to just say "right - all our Off Peak returns are valid from 0900 only, and no exceptions!" Simple eh? But then how would passengers from Edinburgh get into London at a reasonable time? They couldn't get in before 1pm - and surely that's dreadfully unfair, making them buy an Anytime to arrive at their destination at 1230.

Everybody agrees the fares system is complex, particularly with reference to Off Peak travel. What I have not seen on this forum is anything resembling a solution. All I see is hyperbole and criticism of the status quo. Any solution that does get proposed ends up with stealth fares rises such as would happen in the East Coast example highlighted.

Further reading:

http://www.emanilapoetry.com/writersgroup/index.php/the-frogs-who-desired-a-king-aesops-foibles/

 

[Ferret]

I hope you had fun writing all of that...

As has been repeatedly explained in this topic, good customer service does not mean bowing to the customer's every whim. Sounds like you don't understand what good customer service actually is...

No, but that's what some posting in this thread expect - bow down to every whim possible. I'm sure 158801 understands what good customer service is, the question is do you have the first clue how to do the job that he does? I think not.

 

[jon0844]

I've gotta be honest, as the train in transmanche's case was cancelled anyway. I don't see a problem with him avoiding the queue by doing something more productive with his time.

Indeed. If I am flying alone, have an allocated seat and have a small bag I can tuck under the seat in front, I won't join the queue to board the plane with everyone else. I'll stay seated and carry on until the queue is nearly gone.

Why stand in the queue if you can do something more productive? That is unless you're quick enough to be at the front of said queue, which is probably why everyone runs to form a long line at the airport!

 

[Oswyntail]

...
What's important is that people are treated fairly ....
What is if course more important is that the pricing structure of the railway is made more transparent and intuitive. This represents a huge challenge for ATOC and those who work in the industry. ....
An example of a transparent fares structure would be for a company like East Coast to just say "right - all our Off Peak returns are valid from 0900 only, and no exceptions!" ...

A very thoughtful post. I think, on the second point, you have missed out one very important factor - consistency.There should be no variance between TOCs - after all, they are running parts of the national railway as franchisees, not separate railways.
The answer to the Edinburgh conundrum, might involve solutions such as fare revision, abolishing time restrictions altogether on all inter-city trains, or, yes, saying that the market lost by maintaining a current blanket restriction is too small to bother with. The point being that, with consistency, clarity, and certainty a passenger can make an informed choice.

 

[IanXC]

An example of a transparent fares structure would be for a company like East Coast to just say "right - all our Off Peak returns are valid from 0900 only, and no exceptions!" Simple eh? But then how would passengers from Edinburgh get into London at a reasonable time? They couldn't get in before 1pm - and surely that's dreadfully unfair, making them buy an Anytime to arrive at their destination at 1230.

Is this not what CrossCountry has done? Which causes some very strange results, such as the 9.28 CrossCountry from Par to Bodmin being a peak train, and results in a premium of £177.30 being payable to start a journey to York from Par rather than Bodmin!
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1067102&postcount=22

 

[AlterEgo]

I think, on the second point, you have missed out one very important factor - consistency.There should be no variance between TOCs - after all, they are running parts of the national railway as franchisees, not separate railways.

Well, quite. I was trying to illustrate that a 'one size fits all' ticketing policy may not be the way forward. Making Off Peak tickets valid only after 0930 with no exceptions may benefit commuter lines, but it does not fit with intercity operations which may involve journeys of 400 miles or more.

The answer to the Edinburgh conundrum, might involve solutions such as fare revision, abolishing time restrictions altogether on all inter-city trains, or, yes, saying that the market lost by maintaining a current blanket restriction is too small to bother with. The point being that, with consistency, clarity, and certainty a passenger can make an informed choice.

Interesting points - but Virgin (as an example) restrict their Off Peak tickets so that anybody travelling from Lancaster and further north can effectively travel at any time on an Off Peak ticket. Trust me, that is a huge market that take advantage of that restriction. Someone travelling from Carlisle can pay £103.10 for an Off Peak Return, and take the 0543 train to London, arriving at 0904 - perfect for a business visit to the capital.

By applying a hard and fast rule and saying Off Peak tickets are always valid, with no exceptions, after 0930 only, the customer either has to pay the same price, arriving at 1312 (useless for people wanting a full day in London!), or pay £319.00 for an Anytime Return. That's what's commonly called a backdoor fares increase.

As you can see, this nuance in Off Peak validity is quite important - at least in my view anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is this not what CrossCountry has done? Which causes some very strange results, such as the 9.28 CrossCountry from Par to Bodmin being a peak train, and results in a premium of £177.30 being payable to start a journey to York from Par rather than Bodmin!
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1067102&postcount=22

It's precisely what XC have done, yes!

And everybody on here derides them for it.

CrossCountry made their fares much simpler to understand - but that comes at the expense of catering to huge intercity journeys, and it hits the farepayer in the wallet.

I'm not saying that cost-efficiency and simplicity have to be mutually exclusive, but nobody seems to have found a foolproof pricing method satisfying both customer and TOC. We're looking for a win-win situation that's very hard to find.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

PS: Nigel Harris did a good leader on this whole ticketing / conditions mess, very supportive of PF's recent proposals for standardisation / code of practice, in the current issue of Rail magazine. Good to see some people that are essentially on the industry's side are saying things need to change!

The industry is very, VERY, eager to change ticketing and to change it radically.
You only have to read the current Fares & Ticketing Consultation to see that, though there is plenty pressure for change from the TOCs too (from a radical overhaul to minor adjustments).
What we should be concerned about is not any lack of will to change but the details of what will change.

 

[sheff1]

What I have not seen on this forum is anything resembling a solution. All I see is hyperbole and criticism of the status quo.

I have seen sensible suggestions, often based on systems in place in other countries, but they have always been shouted down on the basis that 'it wouldn't work here' without a coherent explanation as to why.

Back in my ticket office days (early/mid 1970s) thing really were simple for both staff and passengers. Single, day return or period return tickets only, with no time restrictions at all expect to/via London. Similar simple systems remain in place in many European countries, including those with a large number of private/franchised operators.

 

[CNash]

No, but that's what some posting in this thread expect - bow down to every whim possible. I'm sure 158801 understands what good customer service is, the question is do you have the first clue how to do the job that he does? I think not.

And you'd be right; of course I don't have any experience in that field. What I do have experience in (in various roles prior to my current career, and some in a supervisory capacity) is good customer service. You can't just say "well being a train guard/RPI is different, you couldn't possibly understand", and use that as an excuse not to practice good customer service - which isn't making concessions to people or bowing to their whim (which is not what I expect - can't speak for anyone else in this thread). What it is can be summed up easily: treat people as you would wish to be treated, even when giving them bad news.

 

[Flamingo]

The whole problem with your premise, CNash, is that you think that most people will respond in a reasonable manner when being told they need to pay more money. Very few of them do. Some will accept it, a lot are conditioned to think that if they shout loud enough they will get their own way. If you came out for a day with me you would see what I mean, I would say that one in three people I charge up ask for my name, over half say "I'll get this refunded, just see if I don't".

I have had our customer services assessor shadow me, and he says he doesn't know why I get complaints (I asked him), as far as he can tell I'm very polite, respond appropriately with non-threatening body language, and give very appropriate explanations as to why a particular ticket is not valid. I always announce restrictions that apply before leaving London, and before any stops that they apply to.

I very rarely charge full open singles, I will excess (with fee if appropriate) on every occasion. It doesn't make much difference however, as the same amount of abuse comes if you are trying to charge somebody a £12 excess or a £90 full open single.

The only other option I have is simply walk through the train, saying "Does anybody want to buy a ticket?".

 

[CNash]

Yes, I acknowledge that even if you're as friendly and conciliatory as you can be, you're not going to get a non-abusive reaction out of everybody. I know that in practice, it's easier said than done. But that doesn't mean that the theory isn't valid, that displaying good customer service isn't worthwhile, or that you should simply give up trying - not saying that you (personally) do, of course, just that if guards start thinking "it doesn't matter what I say, they'll be abusive and call me rude anyway - I won't bother being polite to them", that can only lead to a fostering of contempt for the customer, and a poorer experience overall.

In my customer-facing roles I've been shouted at, sworn at, threatened and had half-full cans of coke chucked at my head, no matter how polite I was in breaking the bad news, and on those days it's easy to say "Bugger this for a lark, the little ****s don't deserve this level of service" - but then, after cooling down a little, you just write it off. Some people will always behave like that; it doesn't mean that every customer should be treated as a shouting match waiting to happen.

 

[Flamingo]

You are right, and one can't please everybody. However, the railway does have a strange approach, when the same "customer care" approach is taken by management that is best suited to Tesco's, but the T&C and bylaws are more geared towards "enforcement", and this is what is required by bylaws. This results in staff being placed in an impossible position, with the only written instructions being the NRCoC, but managers giving verbal instructions that are at variance with these conditions, and even a culture where staff who apply the NRCoC being seen as looking for trouble.

Some posters on this (and other) threads have made the point that TOC's are running the franchise as a public service on behalf of the government, and by extension the country as a whole. The obvious extension of this is that TOC's have a duty to maximise their revenue and revenue protection on behalf of the public as a whole, which would mean greater, not less revenue protection, a more active pursuit of revenue, and a less "discretionary" approach to irregularities.

However, this, I suspect, is the complete opposite to what these posters are intending.

As a general point for all posters on the thread, going back to the OP, which was about passengers complaining about, in essence, T&C of railway travel being applied to them as individuals. If they should not be applied to the minority who (for whatever reason) do get it wrong, why should they be applied to the overwhelming majority that get it right? and if the majority of travellers are in breach of them, who is going to make up the financial shortfall?

 

[wijit]

Ticketing really needs simplifying, on the front of the ticket it says "validity" which usually says "see restrictions", "booked train only" or "as advertised". Only the "booked train only" gives the ticket holder the information they really need. People are not going to be generally familiar with T+C's so if the ticket allowed for a section that maybe said the actual times (in terms of peak/off peak) a ticket is valid, as peak can mean different times, that would help. I know terms and conditions are important, but to the majority of travellers I'd suggest quality of validity information would be more useful on the reverse than adverts.
I don't think you'd ever eliminate those who want to fib their way out of a situation, but give people the correct information and you will limited the viable excuses.
Yes, I'm prepared to be shot down if this is a silly suggestion for any reason.

 

[AndyLandy]

Ticketing really needs simplifying, on the front of the ticket it says "validity" which usually says "see restrictions", "booked train only" or "as advertised". Only the "booked train only" gives the ticket holder the information they really need. People are not going to be generally familiar with T+C's so if the ticket allowed for a section that maybe said the actual times (in terms of peak/off peak) a ticket is valid, as peak can mean different times, that would help. I know terms and conditions are important, but to the majority of travellers I'd suggest quality of validity information would be more useful on the reverse than adverts.
I don't think you'd ever eliminate those who want to fib their way out of a situation, but give people the correct information and you will limited the viable excuses.
Yes, I'm prepared to be shot down if this is a silly suggestion for any reason.

For an offpeak ticket that only has a morning restriction, that would be perfectly reasonable:

"Route: Not London, valid after 0930" is brief and clear. It starts to get tricky when you have different validity for different routes. "Route: Any Permitted, valid after 0800 via Barnham, 0900 via Not London, 0930 via London"

And then you get on to SuperOffPeak with morning and evening restrictions. Couple that with different rules depending on routeing and suddenly it's getting rather more complicated...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ticketing really needs simplifying, on the front of the ticket it says "validity" which usually says "see restrictions", "booked train only" or "as advertised". Only the "booked train only" gives the ticket holder the information they really need. People are not going to be generally familiar with T+C's so if the ticket allowed for a section that maybe said the actual times (in terms of peak/off peak) a ticket is valid, as peak can mean different times, that would help. I know terms and conditions are important, but to the majority of travellers I'd suggest quality of validity information would be more useful on the reverse than adverts.
I don't think you'd ever eliminate those who want to fib their way out of a situation, but give people the correct information and you will limited the viable excuses.
Yes, I'm prepared to be shot down if this is a silly suggestion for any reason.

When it comes to some off peak tickets, the ticket itself wouldn't be big enough to have the restrictions printed legibly on it. However, I understand the restriction code is being printed on some tickets.

 

[ainsworth74]

People are not going to be generally familiar with T+C's so if the ticket allowed for a section that maybe said the actual times (in terms of peak/off peak) a ticket is valid, as peak can mean different times, that would help. I know terms and conditions are important, but to the majority of travellers I'd suggest quality of validity information would be more useful on the reverse than adverts.

Good luck getting this restriction printed on a Crewe to Euston Off-Peak Return:

Restriction : 2C
FOR TRAVEL TO OR VIA:
London Terminals, Milton
Keynes, Watford, Stevenage,
Reading, Kensington Olympia,
Bedford, Luton and Luton
Airport Parkway.

These restrictions apply
Monday to Friday. By any train
on other days.

If travel is NOT to/via the
stations listed below or
Peterborough, see restriction
code 2V.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to ARRIVE as
shown below:

RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to DEPART_as
shown below:

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
Before 0430 and between 0926
& 1500 (inclusive) and at or
after 1845.

ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON
Before 0720 or at or after
1129.

DEPART: LONDON KING'S CROSS
Before 0300 & between 0906 &
1459 (inclusive) and at or
after 1859. Also allowed at or
after 1815 on Fridays.

ARRIVE: LONDON KING'S CROSS
Before 0430 & and at or after
1117.

DEPART: ST PANCRAS
INTERNATIONAL
Between 1026 & 1515 (inc.) and
at or after 1859.

ARRIVET PANCRAS
INTERNATIONAL
At or after 1129

DEPART:LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET
Between 0931 & 1628 (inc.) and
at or after 1835. (see note
below)

ARRIVE: LONDON LIVERPOOL
STREET
At or after 1000.( see note
below )

DEPART:LONDON MARYLEBONE
Before 0720 or at or after
1130.

ARRIVE: LONDON MARYLEBONE
between 0926 & 1500 (inc.) and
at or after 1845.

DEPART: LONDON PADDINGTON
Between 0810 & 1640 (inc.) and
at or after 1801. (see note
below)

ARRIVE: LONDON PADDINGTON
At or after 1010._(see note
below)

DEPART: LONDON WATERLOO
At or after 0815

ARRIVE: LONDON WATERLOO
At or after 1000

DEPART: KENSINGTON OLYMPIA
Between 0915 & 1514 (inc.)
and at or after 1812.

ARRIVE: KENSINGTON OLYMPIA
At or after 1100

DEPART: BEDFORD
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.)
and at or after 1859

ARRIVE: BEDFORD
At or after 0930

DEPART: LUTON/LUTON AIRPORT
PARKWAY
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.) and
at or after 1859

ARRIVE: LUTON/LUTON AIRPORT
________PARKWAY
At or after 1004

DEPART: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
Befor 0430 and between 0951
& 1514 (inclusive) and at or
after 1914.

ARRIVE: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
Before 0639 or at or after
1048

DEPART: READING
Between 0835 & 1710 (inc.) and
or after 1831. (see note
below)

ARRIVE: READING
At or after 0940 (see note
below)

DEPART: STEVENAGE
Before 0300 between 0919 &
1507 (inclusive) and at or
after 1901. Also allowed at or
after 1835 on Fridays.

ARRIVE: STEVENAGE
Before 0400 & at or after 1055

DEPART: STRATFORD (LONDON)
At or before 1705 and at or
after 1855

ARRIVE: STRATFORD (LONDON)
At or after 1015

DEPART: WATFORD JUNCTION
Before 0430 and between 0938
& 1438 (inclusive) and at or
after 1838.

ARRIVE: WATFORD JUNCTION
Before 0644 and at or after
1045
OVERNIGHT BREAK OF JOURNEY
Restarting journey from an
intermediate station.
Outward (on day 2): outward
morning restrictions as above
apply from/via the stations
shown above (Mon-Fri) and
journey must recommence before
12:00 (all days).
Recommencing from any other
station en route that is north
of the stations shown above
must be on trains timed to
depart 09:30-11:59 inc. (by
any train before 12:00 on BH
and other days).
Return: return restrictions_as
above apply Mon-Fri.

NOTE A:
Travel to all stations
Worcester Shrub Hill to
Hereford (via Oxford) is also
permitted on the 1722, 1750
and 1822 services from
London Paddington (1751, 1823
and 1852 from Reading).
Travel to Gowerton and beyond
is also permitted on the 1745
London Paddington to
Carmarthen service (1812 from
Reading).
Travel to Newton Abbott and
beyond, and all stations
Newton St Cyres to Barnstaple,
is permitted on the 1803
London Paddington to Penzance
service (1833 from Reading).
Travel to Menheniot and beyond
is also permitted on the 1703
London Paddington - Penzance
service (1732 from Reading) on
FRIDAYS ONLY.

For Off-Peak travel via
Hereford, Oxford & Newport see
Restriction GK
For Super Off-Peak travel via
Hereford, Oxford & Newport see
Restriction 2Q.

Travel is permitted on the
1636 from London Liverpool
Street to Braintree for
destinations Hatfield Peverel
to Braintree only.
3) Travel is permitted on the
0603 London to Birmingham New
Street and the 0500 & 0524
Wolverhampton to Euston.

Off-Peak restrictions will
not apply on Virgin Trains
services from 6th April - 9th
April 2012 inclusive.

Ticket Code: BVR/SVR
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

NOTES:
1) Time restrictions are
indicated by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
validity code.
2) Holders of Off-Peak ticket
types SVS/SVR, which are
discounted using 16-25, Senior
, Disabled Persons, HM Forces
and Family & Friends Railcards
, New Deal Photocards and
Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards,
may use ANY Virgin_train
service, provided that the
route on the ticket is not
"Virgin Trains Only" and the
journey being made is priced
by Virgin Trains. If the
journey is not priced by
Virgin Trains then the stated
Off-Peak restictions apply.
3) Only Senior, Disabled
persons and HM Forces
Railcards discounts are
offered with First Class
Off-Peak Tickets.

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S RESTRICTION CODE, and
in all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey does continue
into the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply. No further break of
journey is allowed except for
the purpose of changing
trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0230 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey).
If a passenger is_still
travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

Note: Cross London transfers
will only be accepted by
London Underground on the
date shown on the ticket (or
last day of validity for
Off-Peak Returns) and until
0429 the following day.

TICKET INFORMATION:
Off-Peak tickets are not valid
when the journey is affected
by a restriction shown against
the ticket's restriction code.

Tickets with a 'Maltese Cross'
shown in the route description
allow transfer across London
on London Underground,
Docklands Light Railway or
First Capital Connect
(Thameslink route) services
appropriate to the route of
the through journey being made

Any local restriction easement
can be found in the Easements
section- Easements
introduction to view.

Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section E0

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

I think the best we can hope for is getting tickets printed with the restriction code that passengers can then look up on line (though a much more user friendly version than currently exists on NRE would be needed) or from a booklet published at the same time as fare changes (though that would probably be expensive). Certainly it would be a step in the right direction to have the code printed on tickets.

 

[jon0844]

When it comes to some off peak tickets, the ticket itself wouldn't be big enough to have the restrictions printed legibly on it. However, I understand the restriction code is being printed on some tickets.

That's a start, if the codes are available on posters at train stations (perhaps on printed timetables?).

I've always thought that when we were upgrading ticket printers in new TVMs and new machines in ticket offices, we should have been looking to fit double sided printers that could put key information on the reverse.

The upside of this was a potential revenue stream by keeping an area for advertising. I know we already have advertising on some tickets (printed on the ticket stock itself) but if people don't look at the back, it's not very effective. As a result, I've not seen ads on tickets for some time.

However, when a ticket has information on the back - people will know to look. Suddenly a quarter of the ticket for an ad is quite lucrative. It would be printed by the machine on the paper too, so could be bang up to date.

In fact, an itinerary could be printed there, seat reservations and even live service info (as at the time of printing, obviously).

I know we'll gradually move towards smartcard ticketing, but I still think it's a good idea. A wasted opportunity really, as so many TOCs have now installed new equipment than any further change is likely to be years away.

And @ainsworth74, I think for the example you've given - I'd just print what trains you could use the ticket on!

 

[AndyLandy]

In fact, an itinerary could be printed there, seat reservations and even live service info (as at the time of printing, obviously).

Old style APTIS advance purchase tickets used to have this on the back. Of course, the boxes had to be hand-written by the clerk at time of purchase. Nowadays, you just get a million and one coupons instead.

 

[island]

Double-sided printing sounds expensive to implement.

 

[jon0844]

It is silly how many tickets get printed for things like advance tickets, with reservations, receipts, credit card vouchers etc.

It's no wonder you'll often see some of these in the collection trays!

Credit card sized tickets are more convenient, but I do think we could either print double sided or simply revise how things are printed (slightly) on the front to include a bit more info.

I'm sure most printers now print all of the ticket information as a big image - so they can have multiple text sizes, fonts and even images/symbols. While you might need a minimum size for text (for the visually impaired), there's definitely scope to squeeze a bit more information on. With a different font (a narrower one) you might also get more than 16 characters for destination/restrictions.

Surely this is just a software update?

Double-sided printing sounds expensive to implement.

It would be now, as it would likely require changing the printers everywhere. However double sided printers could have been ordered earlier if anyone had considered the benefits.

Many supermarkets now print on both sides, to save paper (or, as they'd argue, to reduce waste). Seems like common sense to me.

I think the only hope now is smart ticketing. Once all phones have NFC, passengers will even be able to scan their own tickets to see restrictions, live running info and even, in theory, modify their tickets before they're used without going near a train station.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's a start, if the codes are available on posters at train stations (perhaps on printed timetables?)....

You'd have to have most if not all the restrictions at each station and there are quite a few (potentially 520 restriction codes could be used by the TOCs), so you may be looking at a lot of potentially confusing information in one bundle.

....I've always thought that when we were upgrading ticket printers in new TVMs and new machines in ticket offices, we should have been looking to fit double sided printers that could put key information on the reverse.

The upside of this was a potential revenue stream by keeping an area for advertising. I know we already have advertising on some tickets (printed on the ticket stock itself) but if people don't look at the back, it's not very effective. As a result, I've not seen ads on tickets for some time.

However, when a ticket has information on the back - people will know to look. Suddenly a quarter of the ticket for an ad is quite lucrative. It would be printed by the machine on the paper too, so could be bang up to date....

I'm not convinced people would pay more attention if the available space could be printed on, but I guess the theory might work. Also, the printers currently burn the ticket data on, so adverts would likely be black and white.

....In fact, an itinerary could be printed there, seat reservations and even live service info (as at the time of printing, obviously)....

An itinerary/reservation details for Advance fares would work but live information (as at the time of printing) could cause too much confusion.

....And @ainsworth74, I think for the example you've given - I'd just print what trains you could use the ticket on!

Given the options for routes (which cause the long restrictions), I don't think that is particularly feasible either.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not convinced people would pay more attention if the available space could be printed on, but I guess the theory might work. Also, the printers currently burn the ticket data on, so adverts would likely be black and white.

Yes, but black and white is surely fine? I am not sure if they could use halftone to simulate some levels of grey?