CompactDstrxion
Member
- Joined
- 8 Jun 2009
- Messages
- 598
It's denying a sale from Darlington to Durham.
No. Darlington to Durham only has walk-up fares.
It's denying a sale from Darlington to Durham.
And an even bigger cynic like moi would postulate that the onerous conditions on advance tickets (such as a compulsory reserved seat, and having to have the reservation plus the ticket to be valid, and disallowing any break of journey) are loaded so that the occasional passenger who makes a mistake and is charged a ludicrous full fare rather than an upgrade makes up a nice chunk of profit for the TOC to be offset against other advance ticket sales and those naughty split ticket specialists....
....I say again, there is NO reason why someone on an advance ticket from London to Durham should not be allowed to leave the train at Darlington and there is NO reason why someone who misses a Manchester to London train at midday should not be allowed to board the next one (or indded if they turn up early should not be allowed to board an earlier one); there is no loss, no fraud, nobody inconvenienced in these cases; the issue is surely the fact that the TOC stand to gain vast sums of money from passengers' misunderstanding and/or misfortune, and it's this which gives ready ammunition for the press and consumer groups....
....People on this site appear to be largely rail industry employees or train enthusiasts and don't seem to appreciate that ordinary people think they are been scammed when a journey sold rather loudly for £11.99 suddenly costs upwards of £100 because they haven't complied with some condition. And they're right.
And a bigger cynic like me would think £20 London to Scotland is suspiciously cheap and meticulously check the terms and conditions. I don't doubt for a second that TOCs see it as a form of revenue but not that they plan it, like Dick Dastardly plants traps for wacky racers
It's denying a sale from Darlington to Durham. Break of journey is forbidden because they'd not be able to stop someone re-joining the train in peak hours.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/cartoon/2012/may/22/train-fare-not-fair-court
Ahh always a pleasure when the cartoonist gets things wrong.
You make a very good point. It would help everyone significantly if the websites had clearer segregation between:Indeed most passengers have no problem with Advance tickets. A minority do, and whilst some like to think that they're all chancers (and no doubt many are), some are genuinely confused- generally irregular travellers. As I've said before, I believe a lot of these problems stem from NRE's and Thetrainline's habit of defaulting to the absolute cheapest fares, rather than the cheapest flexible fares. This means that those who "just want a ticket" end up with restrictive tickets without necessarily knowing they're tied to a specified service (don't start that they should read all the terms...), whilst others end up paying more than the flexible fare.
I say again... and there is NO reason why someone who misses a Manchester to London train at midday should not be allowed to board the next one (or indded if they turn up early should not be allowed to board an earlier one); there is no loss, no fraud, nobody inconvenienced in these cases...
People on this site appear to be largely rail industry employees or train enthusiasts and don't seem to appreciate that ordinary people think they are been scammed when a journey sold rather loudly for £11.99 suddenly costs upwards of £100 because they haven't complied with some condition. And they're right.
And an even bigger cynic like moi would postulate that the onerous conditions on advance tickets (such as a compulsory reserved seat, and having to have the reservation plus the ticket to be valid, and disallowing any break of journey) are loaded so that the occasional passenger who makes a mistake and is charged a ludicrous full fare rather than an upgrade makes up a nice chunk of profit for the TOC to be offset against other advance ticket sales and those naughty split ticket specialists.
But the system shouldn't be so complicated that you need to resort to reading reams of terms and conditions.The terms and conditions for advance tickets are there for anyone to read.
But the system shouldn't be so complicated that you need to resort to reading reams of terms and conditions.
I've said it before and it still holds true. Any business where the first reaction is to say 'well you didn't read the T&C's' has lost the plot. Relying on the T&Cs to 'punish' the customer should be the last resort, not the first resort.
No. Darlington to Durham only has walk-up fares.
Passengers are told (at stations, online they should be in the T&Cs that they agree they have read) at the time of sale that the Advance tickets are non-refundable, that they are only for the specific services that have been booked and that any changes before the time of departure are subject to additional charge. If the passenger makes a mistake, it is the passenger's fault, not the TOC's, if the passenger is late it is the passenger that is at fault, not the TOCs.
Let's swing this round, how would you feel if the TOC wanted more from the contract because they were late or had cancelled the service? Not happy I bet? I think you would refuse to allow it (and rightly so), so why are the TOCs wrong for holding the passenger to the agreed terms?
You state it is unfair on the passenger as if the TOCs never lose out, but if the TOCs fail to hold up their end of the deal, they have to make other arrangements, possibly even pay out extra costs. The contract isn't as one sided as you seem to think.
I remember FTPE refunded 100% of the cost of my ticket because of a one hour delay a few years back, presumably you think it was unfair of me to hold FTPE to their contracted terms?
The TOCs gain nothing extra if the passenger keeps their end of the contract, nothing at all. But please, don't let me stop you painting a picture of the TOCs as the evil companies you seem to think they are.
If a passenger deliberately buys a ticket to Durham, which is cheaper than to Darlington and has a condition that it can't be used to Darlington, with the intention of getting off at Darlington, it boils down to little more than fare evasion.
If a passenger misses their train from Manchester to London they can board the next train if they have visited the ticket office before boarding the train and bought a new ticket (at a substantially lower price than the price onboard in most cases).
If a passenger turns up early, they can board an earlier train if they change the ticket at a ticket office before boarding the train (at a substantially lower price than onboard in most cases).
In the latter case the only amount they have paid over the walk up fare is the £10 admin fee per ticket, not the headline 100s of pounds often quoted by the media.
I say again, the TOCs gain nothing extra if the passenger keeps their end of the contract, nothing at all.
These "employees of the railway" and "enthusiasts" also buy flexible and Advance fares and for the most part have no problems with the TOCs while travelling, why? because they follow the terms of the ticket. The vast majority of passengers who follow the terms of an Advance ticket have trouble free journeys with no extra charge, and where there is an issue it is very rarely a problem with the ticket.
I try hard to make sure those I sell Advance tickets know the conditions of the ticket, but you would be very surprised to learn how many have no interest in waiting around to listen to them. I'll be honest, if they are "caught out" by "unknown conditions" that they agreed to at the time of sale, I no sympathy for them, but if they approach me before getting on the train to sort any issue out, I will do everything I can to help them out (usually resulting in a substantial reduction in cost compared to sorting it out on the train).
But the system shouldn't be so complicated that you need to resort to reading reams of terms and conditions.
I've said it before and it still holds true. Any business where the first reaction is to say 'well you didn't read the T&C's' has lost the plot. Relying on the T&Cs to 'punish' the customer should be the last resort, not the first resort.
When can I use an Advance ticket?
Advance fares are valid only on the date and train shown on the ticket and are non-refundable. You can change the time or date of travel before departure of the first reserved train.
Any difference in fare and an administration fee will be payable.
When can I use an Advance ticket?
Advance fares are valid only on the date and train shown on the ticket and are non-refundable. You can change the time or date of travel before departure of the first reserved train.
Any difference in fare and an administration fee will be payable.
Perhaps it's time the TOCs just did away with Advance tickets and sold everyone a full fare jobby with perhaps a 10 or 20% online discount?! If any case is brought successfully against the Advance regulations that will likely be the outcome, TOCs will not agree to just flog people a ticket for a fiver and let them travel whenever the hell they feel like it. Sadly, this whole issue is symptomatic of the grasping self-entitled mentality of some people in our society today. Rather than appreciate that they are getting a promotional ticket with a very heavy discount, these people instead seem to feel that they have a right to travel for peanuts come what may and seemingly view the standard price for their journey as something which should never apply to them. Let's hope the TOCs stand firm on this.
Same with buy-onboard - it should either be OK across the network or not OK across the whole network - it's too difficult for casual passengers to determine where its OK and they're not going to get caught out and where its not OK and they risk being penaltied or reported for prosecution.
I think you mis-read what I wrote. Where did I say we don't need T&Cs? I said when you instinctively resort to the T&Cs as a first resort for sorting out customer service issues, then you've lost the plot. The T&Cs are there as a last resort for dealing with the p***s takers.How else is one able to uphold the rules without having well-defined T&Cs?
Why dont they issue guards with a barcode reader and then put them funny QR codes on priint at home tickets? Each one unique. The handheld would have to be able to connect to a server immediatly to prevent fraud.
An example how the railway can adopt such practices is that InterCity-type TOCs could allow the conductor print my tickets on board (for a small fee) if for some reason I wasn't able to collect them from a TVM in time - rather than simply charging me the full fare.
And it's a bit rich for contributors to talk about potential fare evasion when the majority of this forum is devoted to (legally) evading the correct fare as set by the appropriate TOC for the journey they are making.
We are here to serve the passenger. But the passenger also has a responsibility themselves - and its quite apparent that a lot of passengers dont want that responsibility.