GWR Brighton services axed from May timetable change

[Towers]

I sympathise; it's a grim route when travelling by anything other than a decent, fast service

 

[DaveHarries]

I am really upset that they are axing this service. It has been a lifeline for me. I travel from Havant to Falmer three times per week, changing at Brighton. I usually take the 07.27 from Havant to Brighton and return on the 17.02 from Brighton to Havant. The GWR train is comfy and has tables so you can get some work done. There are quite a few people that make the journey between Havant and Brighton each day. The situation at the moment is awful as there are very few direct Southern trains between Brighton and Havant. At present I have to take the 16.32 from Brighton, which is rammed (about 30 people standing in each carriage). I then have to change at Chichester so my journey is significantly longer. The person who said that this route is not used much ought to try it out for themselves! My only hope is that the trains between Brighton and Southampton (which stop at Havant) will be re-instated. Does anyone know whether this will happen?

I just looked up this on RealTimeTrains for 16th May and it seems there is an 0738 to Brighton. Not sure if that is any help but here is the list of departures from Havant to Brighton for that date:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Havant all day on 16/05/2022

Train information at Havant all day on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

HTH,
Dave

 

[nw1]

Tried to use the 1702 GWR service from Brighton today. It was cancelled. I went up to three bridges to connect with Southampton service instead, it did start from West Worthing. Was hoping to ride it before it's gone but only possible on weekdays.

Didn't realise the 'regular' Brighton to Southampton and Brighton to Portsmouth services weren''t running at the moment - but I've just checked and that appears to be the case.

 

[abn444]

Didn't realise the 'regular' Brighton to Southampton and Brighton to Portsmouth services weren''t running at the moment - but I've just checked and that appears to be the case.

Due to return in May I believe

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Due to return in May I believe

Yeah they will return in May.

 

[nw1]

Yeah they will return in May.

OK thanks, I knew that they were running in May but thought that they were also running now. But I've expanded on that on another thread, to avoid taking this one OT.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am really upset that they are axing this service. It has been a lifeline for me. I travel from Havant to Falmer three times per week, changing at Brighton. I usually take the 07.27 from Havant to Brighton and return on the 17.02 from Brighton to Havant. The GWR train is comfy and has tables so you can get some work done. There are quite a few people that make the journey between Havant and Brighton each day. The situation at the moment is awful as there are very few direct Southern trains between Brighton and Havant. At present I have to take the 16.32 from Brighton, which is rammed (about 30 people standing in each carriage). I then have to change at Chichester so my journey is significantly longer. The person who said that this route is not used much ought to try it out for themselves! My only hope is that the trains between Brighton and Southampton (which stop at Havant) will be re-instated. Does anyone know whether this will happen?

As a regular user / commuter (I'm assuming for work purposes) you could try and raise this with your MP and specifically ask your MP to raise this with the Dept for Transport / Minister of Transport - who have likely made the decision / instructed GWR to end this service, and make those same points you make in your post. I would certainly do that if I was in your position.

I would also specifically ask your MP to get the DfT to be crystal clear on the reinstatement of the Southampton trains, and to make the case that the GWR service should be retained until they actually recommence.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but told by guard today that Fratton Depot have been informed of the ceasing of catering, as well as the Brightons. This applies to non IET services, I believe. Not that I’m surprised, as a trolley probably struggles to get through narrow Turbo aisles.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but told by guard today that Fratton Depot have been informed of the ceasing of catering, as well as the Brightons. This applies to non IET services, I believe. Not that I’m surprised, as a trolley probably struggles to get through narrow Turbo aisles.

It is very unlikely the aisles on Turbos is the issues, they were built for the Network Expresses to Oxford and Worcester amongst others and for many years have had at trolley services since their introduction by NSE.

I would suspect the fact it is presumably loss making to be the bigger factor.

 

[Southern Dvr]

It is very unlikely the aisles on Turbos is the issues, they were built for the Network Expresses to Oxford and Worcester amongst others and for many years have had at trolley services since their introduction by NSE.

I would suspect the fact it is presumably loss making to be the bigger factor.

I can’t see any need of a trolley on that route any more. Unfortunately now catering on trains has been made unnecessary due to its own extortionate costs and poor quality. But like motorway service stations, you’d sooner do all you can to avoid filling up at one, and it’s much the same premise with onboard catering!

 

[Nammer]

Correct, re Catering on GWR services between Portsmouth & Cardiff. Ends on 1st April due to not making enough money.

 

[hermit]

Sad, but not surprising. No catering on any trains from Portsmouth now, the trolleys on the Waterloo trains having gone at the start of the pandemic, and those to Victoria (from Horsham) several years before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t see any need of a trolley on that route any more. Unfortunately now catering on trains has been made unnecessary due to its own extortionate costs and poor quality. But like motorway service stations, you’d sooner do all you can to avoid filling up at one, and it’s much the same premise with onboard catering!

The main issue is that by far the best selling catering product for train journeys is the latte, and it is far too difficult to produce a good one from a trolley before you even consider costs.

You could have a Nespresso machine, but even that isn't quite up to scratch and is very slow.

Then add in the unreliability and how crabby people get if they don't get their caffeine fix...

 

[Southern Dvr]

The main issue is that by far the best selling catering product for train journeys is the latte, and it is far too difficult to produce a good one from a trolley before you even consider costs.

You could have a Nespresso machine, but even that isn't quite up to scratch and is very slow.

Then add in the unreliability and how crabby people get if they don't get their caffeine fix...

Those people now will go to one of the numerous coffee chains at or near the station. The true hard core elite will take a flask or keep warm cup of some description. The motorway petrol station comparison stands, buy before you leave at a lower cost, nobody can afford to pay out the best part of £5 for a hot drink anymore.

 

[Pacwoman]

I just looked up this on RealTimeTrains for 16th May and it seems there is an 0738 to Brighton. Not sure if that is any help but here is the list of departures from Havant to Brighton for that date:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Havant all day on 16/05/2022

Train information at Havant all day on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

HTH,
Dave

Thank you for your help. Yes, there is a 7.38 from Havant to Brighton but it is a stopping service and is one of the trains without tables. I am on it now because the 7.27 GWR train was delayed and is not going further than Worthing. Laptop is balanced on my knee. It looks as though Southern will be re-instating the trains between Southampton and Brighton - I suppose they will be doing this both ways? And will they "fill the gap" and have a train to replace the 7.27 GWR Havant train? This is so that we can have a sporting chance of getting to work before 9.00am. Also, a lot of schoolchildren use this 7.27 GWR train to get to school.

I sympathise; it's a grim route when travelling by anything other than a decent, fast service

Yes, the GWR fast train made it bearable. I intend to contact my MP about the lack of fast and reliable services between Havant and Brighton.

 

[Kite159]

Correct, re Catering on GWR services between Portsmouth & Cardiff. Ends on 1st April due to not making enough money.

No surprise there, especially with the mostly tableless suburban 165/166s meaning if you purchased a coffee it will be a juggling act if you didn't drink it all at once.
As unlike on the 158s which had seat back tables on the airline seats.

 

[Parallel]

No surprise there, especially with the mostly tableless suburban 165/166s meaning if you purchased a coffee it will be a juggling act if you didn't drink it all at once.
As unlike on the 158s which had seat back tables on the airline seats.

Not to mention how rarely a trolley seems to actually be on these services. I’ve seen it happen twice in the last year.

I was always surprised that GWR didn’t take the operation away from RG and operate it like their long distance services with catering staff being based at Bristol or somewhere!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your help. Yes, there is a 7.38 from Havant to Brighton but it is a stopping service and is one of the trains without tables. I am on it now because the 7.27 GWR train was delayed and is not going further than Worthing. Laptop is balanced on my knee. It looks as though Southern will be re-instating the trains between Southampton and Brighton - I suppose they will be doing this both ways? And will they "fill the gap" and have a train to replace the 7.27 GWR Havant train? This is so that we can have a sporting chance of getting to work before 9.00am. Also, a lot of schoolchildren use this 7.27 GWR train to get to school.


Yes, the GWR fast train made it bearable. I intend to contact my MP about the lack of fast and reliable services between Havant and Brighton.

I would assume the Southern Service will operate 'regular interval' Brighton to Southampton as it did before. I would expect it to be of the '377 Electrostar' type again, hopefully - I expect you know - but many of them have a mix of carriages - some with tables and some without, so hopefully you will get the option of a table for work. I quite agree with you on the need for one if travelling any distance.

Well done for intending to raise it with your MP. If you could post any replies you get here (anonymously if you prefer) that would be of interest.

 

[nw1]

Sad, but not surprising. No catering on any trains from Portsmouth now, the trolleys on the Waterloo trains having gone at the start of the pandemic, and those to Victoria (from Horsham) several years before.

Not even trolleys on fast Waterloo trains?

Quite a comedown from the days of the CIG-BEP-CIG combos in the 80s when they had a hot buffet, right up to, IIRC, the 20:50 departure out of Waterloo. Went via cold buffet to trolley, and now seemingly nothing.

It's OK if you join at a station with catering facilities, as then you can buy things at the station, but if you don't, or the on-station catering is closed...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those people now will go to one of the numerous coffee chains at or near the station. The true hard core elite will take a flask or keep warm cup of some description. The motorway petrol station comparison stands, buy before you leave at a lower cost, nobody can afford to pay out the best part of £5 for a hot drink anymore.

I would say au contraire - people are paying out the best part of £5 for a hot drink in droves, but they want the sort of quality you get from a shop, not the compromise (or worse Nescafe) from a trolley. And they want it every day, not when the trolley can be bothered.

Those who object to paying that sort of sum were taking a thermal mug or flask from home anyway.

 

[Bishopstone]

I was always surprised that GWR didn’t take the operation away from RG and operate it like their long distance services with catering staff being based at Bristol or somewhere!

That would have been even more expensive. Directly employed rail staff expect a lot more than the minimum wage, and also join the defined benefit pension scheme, adding a further 20% to payroll costs.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not even trolleys on fast Waterloo trains?

Quite a comedown from the days of the CIG-BEP-CIG combos in the 80s when they had a hot buffet, right up to, IIRC, the 20:50 departure out of Waterloo. Went via cold buffet to trolley, and now seemingly nothing.

It's OK if you join at a station with catering facilities, as then you can buy things at the station, but if you don't, or the on-station catering is closed...

Yes, and you would imagine that a proper buffet car would be able to produce the latte type drinks with their associated very high profit margins, which a trolley can not produce.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and you would imagine that a proper buffet car would be able to produce the latte type drinks with their associated very high profit margins, which a trolley can not produce.

Indeed, or you install something like a Costa Express machine (these are surprisingly good, I find the coffee from them nicer than from their stores) like some European countries* have done.

Thing is, if you're making a short journey you want to board and get a seat, and keep it. Having to go to the buffet first is a faff. Buffet (and for that matter bistro/restaurant) cars work better on very long distance runs. It's even questionable if there is any point in them on London to Manchester now (or e.g. London to Bristol), and on HS2 there'll be very little point at all for any service not going to Scotland.

The main services where onboard catering is likely to be viable now are London-Scotland including CS, the long XC runs and Paddington to Penzance. Those could even sustain restaurant facilities if done well (e.g. DB style Bistro food either for sit-in or at your seat - basically fancy microwave ready meals with e.g. fresh salad/bread added). For almost everything else, most people will buy before boarding.

The one big exception to all that is First Class breakfast on the way to a day's intensive work.

* Surprisingly, given that coffee is a big thing in most European countries, they will accept some utter garbage when travelling, such as in the Netherlands pretty much all coffee will be made with UHT "Koffiemelk" which is just vile. The UK it seems will no longer tolerate that unless it's free (as is expected in hotels). The benefit of using UHT is that it requires less care and cleaning of the machine, the downside is that it tastes so bad it might as well be off.

 

[nw1]

Indeed, or you install something like a Costa Express machine (these are surprisingly good, I find the coffee from them nicer than from their stores) like some European countries* have done.

Thing is, if you're making a short journey you want to board and get a seat, and keep it. Having to go to the buffet first is a faff. Buffet (and for that matter bistro/restaurant) cars work better on very long distance runs. It's even questionable if there is any point in them on London to Manchester now (or e.g. London to Bristol), and on HS2 there'll be very little point at all for any service not going to Scotland.

I'm not so sure of that (though perhaps, due to my generation, I am prejudiced towards buffet cars in any case). On a 2+ hour journey such as London to Manchester, you might not feel like a drink when you leave London but might start feeling like one somewhere halfway. I know that I have used the buffet on Pendolinos several times (a majority of times, even) on journeys to and from Euston, and always to northwest England, rather than Scotland.

Yes, and you would imagine that a proper buffet car would be able to produce the latte type drinks with their associated very high profit margins, which a trolley can not produce.

Good point.

 

[Towers]

SWR cateri

Not even trolleys on fast Waterloo trains?

Quite a comedown from the days of the CIG-BEP-CIG combos in the 80s when they had a hot buffet, right up to, IIRC, the 20:50 departure out of Waterloo. Went via cold buffet to trolley, and now seemingly nothing.

It's OK if you join at a station with catering facilities, as then you can buy things at the station, but if you don't, or the on-station catering is closed...

SWR catering finished when Covid arrived, and hasn't been back since. Nothing even on Waterloo - Weymouth these days.

Indeed, or you install something like a Costa Express machine (these are surprisingly good, I find the coffee from them nicer than from their stores) like some European countries* have done.

Thing is, if you're making a short journey you want to board and get a seat, and keep it. Having to go to the buffet first is a faff. Buffet (and for that matter bistro/restaurant) cars work better on very long distance runs. It's even questionable if there is any point in them on London to Manchester now (or e.g. London to Bristol), and on HS2 there'll be very little point at all for any service not going to Scotland.

The main services where onboard catering is likely to be viable now are London-Scotland including CS, the long XC runs and Paddington to Penzance. Those could even sustain restaurant facilities if done well (e.g. DB style Bistro food either for sit-in or at your seat - basically fancy microwave ready meals with e.g. fresh salad/bread added). For almost everything else, most people will buy before boarding.

The one big exception to all that is First Class breakfast on the way to a day's intensive work.

* Surprisingly, given that coffee is a big thing in most European countries, they will accept some utter garbage when travelling, such as in the Netherlands pretty much all coffee will be made with UHT "Koffiemelk" which is just vile. The UK it seems will no longer tolerate that unless it's free (as is expected in hotels). The benefit of using UHT is that it requires less care and cleaning of the machine, the downside is that it tastes so bad it might as well be off.

Completely agree with the Costa idea; indeed even a 'proper' buffet ought to do well if it was operated as a franchised big name coffee outlet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Completely agree with the Costa idea; indeed even a 'proper' buffet ought to do well if it was operated as a franchised big name coffee outlet.

Has any TOC done one of the "we proudly serve Costabucks" type "franchise lite" schemes, where they use their own bean to cup machines with Costabucks supplied beans and cups? This might be good marketing. Not viable with a trolley, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you for your help. Yes, there is a 7.38 from Havant to Brighton but it is a stopping service and is one of the trains without tables. I am on it now because the 7.27 GWR train was delayed and is not going further than Worthing. Laptop is balanced on my knee. It looks as though Southern will be re-instating the trains between Southampton and Brighton - I suppose they will be doing this both ways? And will they "fill the gap" and have a train to replace the 7.27 GWR Havant train? This is so that we can have a sporting chance of getting to work before 9.00am. Also, a lot of schoolchildren use this 7.27 GWR train to get to school.


Yes, the GWR fast train made it bearable. I intend to contact my MP about the lack of fast and reliable services between Havant and Brighton.

The thing is, it should never have been the responsibility of GWR (or FGW before them) to provide such a key commuter service into Brighton, or back in the afternoon. I suspect SN took advantage of the morning train and didn’t run in their normal half hourly path, but they really should do in the May timetable.

I suspect however that the DFT haven’t addressed the issue - perhaps because they thought that the GWR was an “extra” above the normal pattern.

 

[Towers]

Has any TOC done one of the "we proudly serve Costabucks" type "franchise lite" schemes, where they use their own bean to cup machines with Costabucks supplied beans and cups? This might be good marketing. Not viable with a trolley, though.

Trolleys on, I think, XC used to carry a poster saying exactly that, "proudly serving Starbucks" - the problem of course is that it was/is Starbucks instant, which rather numbs the appeal somewhat!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trolleys on, I think, XC used to carry a poster saying exactly that, "proudly serving Starbucks" - the problem of course is that it was/is Starbucks instant, which rather numbs the appeal somewhat!

To be fair, as far as instant goes the "microgrind" instants are the best out there (they taste more like filter coffee because they contain very finely ground actual coffee as well as the granules). But yes, it does devalue the brand a bit.

 

[Towers]

To be fair, as far as instant goes the "microgrind" instants are the best out there (they taste more like filter coffee because they contain very finely ground actual coffee as well as the granules). But yes, it does devalue the brand a bit.

I presume that's what those tins of 'Azera' or whatever it's called have in them? A powder, rather than granules. It isn't bad, certainly. But it's a long way short of beans freshly ground in a proper coffee machine behind the buffet counter!