GWR Class 800

[jimm]

The proposal may have come from Bombardier, but it is the DfT that pay on this railway and decided they wouldn't.

Neve mind rewriting history, now you seem to be rewriting your own posts... here's a reminder.

The worst part is they had already asked XC to design the Class 802 prototype and then changed their minds

I repeat, the DfT did not ask anyone to do anything. It was approached with a proposal and decided it did not want to pursue the idea.

I didn't ever say there was comprehensive electrification 100 years, do try to read before accusing me of rewriting history. You have to realise most main lines in Europe were electrified when Electric trains were much faster than any alternative and outside HS that isn't true today.

When you go to buy food or fly abroad you are relying on diesel and when that changes, it will change in the railway too. It is already happening with trams and buses, and trucks may not be that far behind. The difference is we shouldn't be solving a 21st century problem with a 20th century solution.

So why mention 100 years ago then, if you weren't tying to make out that comprehensive main line electrification was something that happened long, long ago in other parts of Europe?

What has speed go to do with it? As I noted, the driver for main line electrification in Switzerland and Sweden from the 1920s was lack of coal supplies, not how fast electric trains could go. And can you please enlighten us as to what this 21st century solution is that produces express train performance over long distance instead of diesel engines or electrification, because I've yet to see it. There's a big difference between using batteries - if that's what you mean - to get a lightweight tram through a non-wired area and powering a 125mph train weighing several hundred tonnes.

 

[43074]

When you go to buy food or fly abroad you are relying on diesel and when that changes, it will change in the railway too. It is already happening with trams and buses, and trucks may not be that far behind. The difference is we shouldn't be solving a 21st century problem with a 20th century solution.

You are Chris Grayling and I claim my £5

In other words, you really haven't got a clue.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I repeat, the DfT did not ask anyone to do anything. It was approached with a proposal and decided it did not want to pursue the idea.

It was part of the DfT's attempts to find work for Bombardier at Derby, after the Thameslink order went to Siemens.
Bombardier then came up with the e-Voyager idea, but it was too complicated/expensive, with most work going abroad.
By then Derby had got a lot of extra 387 work anyway so the "problem" disappeared.
But the DfT was, for a while, very keen to pursue the e-Voyager project.
Off topic, sorry.

 

[coppercapped]

It was part of the DfT's attempts to find work for Bombardier at Derby, after the Thameslink order went to Siemens.
Bombardier then came up with the e-Voyager idea, but it was too complicated/expensive, with most work going abroad.
By then Derby had got a lot of extra 387 work anyway so the "problem" disappeared.
But the DfT was, for a while, very keen to pursue the e-Voyager project.
Off topic, sorry.

I don't the the timings of the projects supports your argument.

The DfT gave a cautious go-ahead to Bombardier to further develop the e-Voyager proposal in towards the end of 2011, as was reported here. The proviso was for Bombardier to reduce the capital costs of the project before further progress could be made.

The DfT started the Thameslink train procurement in November 2008, estimating that it would take around 16 months to complete the procurement. In fact it took over four and a half years, the DfT finally awarding the contract in June 2013.

So the e-Voyager concept was contemporary to the Thameslink train procurement and not subsequent to it.

 

[83G/84D]

Class 802 set booked to work to Penzance two days next week.

 

[class387]

Class 802 set booked to work to Penzance two days next week.

In service?

 

[D1009]

In service?

No...

 

[395004]

I heard it's running on Wednesday and Thursday

 

[83G/84D]

No...

I heard it's running on Wednesday and Thursday

Test runs Wednesday and Thursday from Stoke Gifford.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Test runs Wednesday and Thursday from Stoke Gifford.

Nothing listed on RTT or OTT for either Weds 15th or Thurs 16th at any time of day. Must be on VSTPs.

 

[Pete_uk]

Are the 902's all 9 carriage?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are the 802's all 9 carriage?

46x5-car, 14x9-car, all bi-modes.
The 5-car order is split between GWR, TPE and HT.

 

[Andyjs247]

I had my first trip on a class 800 on Wednesday from Didcot to Reading on
800013+800010. I was in Coach C (middle coach of rear unit) which is standard class, as was the Train Manager. At Didcot SDO is used as a 10-Coach IET is too long for the platform.

First impressions are very positive. Seats are quite firm but I liked the ambience and decor. The ride was very smooth and the diesel engines barely audible. Much quieter and less plastic than the Class 220 Voyager that I had on my return to Oxford. Ride quality was good. The vestibules are narrower - perhaps a consequence of the tapered ends of the 26m bodyshell vs 23m for a Mk3.

I also travelled on one of Chiltern’s silver sets yesterday. Chiltern have done a very good job on their Mk3 refurbishment, including lighting. Seats are more comfortable than the Class 800, but the armrests do get in the way. You definitely know there is a big diesel up front too - not that I would be complaining about the class 68 . I would like to do a run on the 800 after dark to compare the lighting levels.

At Reading a poster was on display giving details of the scheduled Class 800 services. Overall I was very impressed with the new train - it will be a worthy successor to the HSTs which have served over 40 years.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Thanks @Clarence Yard , it has been reported to me that at least one set has frequently had an engine out. Not just today.

Interesting that the 802's will be set up for higher acceleration rate, as the DfT specification says that an increased acceleration rate over their specification may be allowed if it can be proved to be compatible with the network. If the 802's can be specced at the higher rate, why not the 800's? is there a technical reason for this? Seems strange to have almost identical trains running with different acceleration rates over the network. Unless the difference in timings is negligible? Can you provide any insight as to how much better the 802's will perform than the current 800's in both diesel and electric mode?

because It;s not a variation to the contract for an 802 to be set up how the operator wants it, it is for the IEP stock thanks to the way in which it was procured and the way in which the Blair /Brown adminstrations hampered the abilty of rail franchises to operate effectively - yet the cluase4ista numpties want to put the railway back under direct political control .

 

[83G/84D]

Nothing listed on RTT or OTT for either Weds 15th or Thurs 16th at any time of day. Must be on VSTPs.

I would say STP rather than VSTP given that I heard it was running on Thursday. VSTP is usually for unplanned movements due to failures in traffic etc.

 

[D1009]

because It;s not a variation to the contract for an 802 to be set up how the operator wants it, it is for the IEP stock thanks to the way in which it was procured and the way in which the Blair /Brown adminstrations hampered the abilty of rail franchises to operate effectively - yet the cluase4ista numpties want to put the railway back under direct political control .

Please don't drag the thread into politics again.

 

[HowardGWR]

At Reading a poster was on display giving details of the scheduled Class 800 services. Overall I was very impressed with the new train - it will be a worthy successor to the HSTs which have served over 40 years.

Thanks for the download; it has just occurred to me that, in a 10 coach train, that's the end of all first class being at the Paddington buffers end.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

At Reading a poster was on display giving details of the scheduled Class 800 services. Overall I was very impressed with the new train - it will be a worthy successor to the HSTs which have served over 40 years.

I won't be impressed with them until such time as they can do 125 on diesel power, the reason I say that is because there will undoubtedly become a time where a OHLE power fault/failure will mean that it will require the use of its diesel engines and they will be required to power the train up to 125 if they want the train to get back on time or run on time whilst the OHLE is de-energized.

 

[Dai Corner]

I won't be impressed with them until such time as they can do 125 on diesel power, the reason I say that is because there will undoubtedly become a time where a OHLE power fault/failure will mean that it will require the use of its diesel engines and they will be required to power the train up to 125 if they want the train to get back on time or run on time whilst the OHLE is de-energized.

How often will there be an OHLE fault but the line is otherwise open?

 

[Master29]

I won't be impressed with them until such time as they can do 125 on diesel power, the reason I say that is because there will undoubtedly become a time where a OHLE power fault/failure will mean that it will require the use of its diesel engines and they will be required to power the train up to 125 if they want the train to get back on time or run on time whilst the OHLE is de-energized.

I agree. To be a worthy HST successor takes more than a months work.

 

[Domh245]

How often will there be an OHLE fault but the line is otherwise open?

Hopefully not very often, but one of the features of the system used on the Great Western Electrification was it's independent mechanical registration, so a dewirement on one line should leave the other lines open for use (once made safe) - for which presumably the electricity will be turned off to allow for repairs or just down to the nature of the installation.

 

[coppercapped]

Hopefully not very often, but one of the features of the system used on the Great Western Electrification was it's independent mechanical registration, so a dewirement on one line should leave the other lines open for use (once made safe) - for which presumably the electricity will be turned off to allow for repairs or just down to the nature of the installation.

I attended an IMechE lecture at Swindon on the GW electrification a year or so ago. The protection system architecture is completely different from that used until now. It is based on a standard applicable to the control of grid systems and distribution networks and so joins the rest of the world. IIRC (my notes are not with me) instead of using circuit breakers at each section break to isolate a fault the monitoring systems identify exactly where the fault is, opens the main circuit breakers supplying the whole stretch from the grid feeder, and the remote switches then open to isolate the fault, re-close to reconfigure the overhead and bypass the fault after which the main breakers close to restore the power to the whole stretch. This happens in about 5 seconds or less. It's very similar to the system used by distribution network operators to bypass faults - sometimes your house lights may flicker as the network is reconfigured and that's the end of it. Electric trains may lose power for 5 seconds or so but should not otherwise affect their running.

If it all works to plan, NewtScaramanga's concerns (post #5958) will not arise. Except perhaps for a train in the isolated section - but this would probably run very carefully anyway in case anything is dangling in the way!

 

[47802]

I won't be impressed with them until such time as they can do 125 on diesel power, the reason I say that is because there will undoubtedly become a time where a OHLE power fault/failure will mean that it will require the use of its diesel engines and they will be required to power the train up to 125 if they want the train to get back on time or run on time whilst the OHLE is de-energized.

Well the trains seem to managing as well as they need to at present with the current OHLE fault ie not yet built, and how quick would the alternative that some people would prefer be, ie an EMU which would need to be diesel dragged!

Off course if an EMU solution had been chosen with some off wire dragging, then in the present situation those EMU's would be likely sat in a siding and Scotrail wouldn't be getting their HST's anytime soon.

 

[Envoy]

Although the pdf with those services due to operate Class 800’s is correct, my understanding is that from 13th November, additional services will also be the new trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

Although the pdf with those services due to operate Class 800’s is correct, my understanding is that from 13th November, additional services will also be the new trains.

Diagrams here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-intercity-express-train-iep-initial-diagrams.153431

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ignore the weekend ones for the time being though.

 

[Chris125]

I won't be impressed with them until such time as they can do 125 on diesel power, the reason I say that is because there will undoubtedly become a time where a OHLE power fault/failure will mean that it will require the use of its diesel engines and they will be required to power the train up to 125 if they want the train to get back on time or run on time whilst the OHLE is de-energized.

You'll be really unimpressed by the AC-only 800s then, and presumably any conventional EMU and electric loco. A truly bizarre attitude.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You'll be really unimpressed by the AC-only 800s then, and presumably any conventional EMU and electric loco. A truly bizarre attitude.

We'll see. So many armchair experts.

 

[Pete_uk]

Did I read some time ago that the AC only 800's were going to have one engine to keep the services running and to allow it to limp somewhere?

 

[snowball]

Did I read some time ago that the AC only 800's were going to have one engine to keep the services running and to allow it to limp somewhere?

Yes, except that the AC only 800s are called 801s. Only the ECML is getting 801s, as GWR's planned 801s have become extra 800s because of the electrification delays.