GWR Class 800

[irish_rail]

FirstGroup have taken this to extremes, though. There has been more and more padding added to GW schedules over the years to take account of this. Crawling into and out of platforms at 10mph is simply not needed.

Interesting to note that SWR are now exhibiting similar driving characteristics with an increasing number of trains being driven like the driver is a frightened old woman going to the shops.

First group do not have a set speed at which to enter a platform . Some drivers merely choose to drive like that. I generally hit platforms pretty hard and not once in my career with first group have I been pulled up for it. Some drivers just happen to be more cautious than others .
And in all honesty hitting platforms at 10mph is pretty much discouraged as with a HST it actually makes it more diffI cult to stop accurately due to the time it will take for the brake to come back in again when re applied.

 

[Railperf]

..with a HST it actually makes it more diffI cult to stop accurately due to the time it will take for the brake to come back in again when re applied.

haha yes...i recall waiting at Bodmin Parkway for an up HST to London..the driver over braked to the point that the train almost stopped halfway along the platform..and yes..it seemed an age for the brakes to release so that he could accelerate the train and stop at the correct position

 

[Railperf]

My experiences on the GEML indicate that multiple units seem to have more responsive (faster to apply and release) brakes than loco hauled stock, and therefore it seems for common for EMU's such as Class 321 to brake a lot later for a station stop. Fastest stops have approached 10%G, whereas loco hauled stops rarely exceed 6%G.
Comparing Class 170, with Class 321 and loco hauled timings between stations on the GEML revealed that any time lost by the 170 DMU's due to their slower acceleration was often recouped by later and harder braking.
Certainly current GWR gross schedules are slack enough for on-time HST's to be driven to around 115mph (on 125mph track) , coasted for long distances and gently stopped while easily maintaining the public timetable (provided there are no TSR's, signal stops etc).

 

[Railperf]

I’ve always found it interesting how a minute here and minute there, can save 10 or 15 min over the length of a journey....

Yes you are right. In older times Padding to Slough was booked at 13 minutes, Slough to Reading in 12 minutes, and Reading to Didcot in 11 minutes - using HST 2 + 7 sets.
Today those scheduled timings are 14.5 minutes, 13.5 minutes and 13 minutes. it is reckoned the extra coach adds about 30 seconds to each journey leg, but there are still 3.5 extra minutes (padding) in the timetable! And once you factor in the superior acceleration of 800's to the tune of close to a minute per 0-125mph gallop, there are several more minutes that could be potentially shaved off - depending on other train movements en route.

 

[43096]

First group do not have a set speed at which to enter a platform . Some drivers merely choose to drive like that. I generally hit platforms pretty hard and not once in my career with first group have I been pulled up for it. Some drivers just happen to be more cautious than others .
And in all honesty hitting platforms at 10mph is pretty much discouraged as with a HST it actually makes it more diffI cult to stop accurately due to the time it will take for the brake to come back in again when re applied.

That may be the case, but I can assure you that drivers have been pulled up on it.

 

[irish_rail]

That may be the case, but I can assure you that drivers have been pulled up on it.

Probably at depots like Bristol I expect can't imagine anywhere else?

 

[Railperf]

First group do not have a set speed at which to enter a platform . Some drivers merely choose to drive like that. I generally hit platforms pretty hard and not once in my career with first group have I been pulled up for it. Some drivers just happen to be more cautious than others .
And in all honesty hitting platforms at 10mph is pretty much discouraged as with a HST it actually makes it more diffI cult to stop accurately due to the time it will take for the brake to come back in again when re applied.

What do reckon your maximum platform entry speed has been?

 

[irish_rail]

What do reckon your maximum platform entry speed has been?

Crikey now there's a question! Probably 60mph at chippenham , 50mph Tiverton / Taunton, and plenty of other places about 40mph, though would usually be aiming for about 35 when running on time.

 

[louis97]

Yes you are right. In older times Padding to Slough was booked at 13 minutes, Slough to Reading in 12 minutes, and Reading to Didcot in 11 minutes - using HST 2 + 7 sets.
Today those scheduled timings are 14.5 minutes, 13.5 minutes and 13 minutes. it is reckoned the extra coach adds about 30 seconds to each journey leg, but there are still 3.5 extra minutes (padding) in the timetable! And once you factor in the superior acceleration of 800's to the tune of close to a minute per 0-125mph gallop, there are several more minutes that could be potentially shaved off - depending on other train movements en route.

Where did you get that information from? Currently Paddington to Slough is 13.5, Slough to Reading 11.5 (with mandatory 1 minute engineering allowance, so 10.5 without) and Reading to Didcot 13 (also with mandatory 1 minute engineering allowance, so 12 without). So I make that 2 minute overall, therefore 30 seconds extra in the timetable above the 30 seconds to each journey leg for the extra coach.

 

[D1009]

I think the only relevance of this discussion to class 800s is that things are unlikely to change as a result of their introduction. Engineering allowance used to be to allow for TSRs, but now these have become rarer. These days it allows for performance issues relating to the railway becoming busier, and as regards GWR it will become even busier from January 2019, if current planned timescales are kept.

 

[BestWestern]

What do reckon your maximum platform entry speed has been?

Was it just me who chuckled at 'Railperf' asking about entry speeds.....?

 

[59CosG95]

Was it just me who chuckled at 'Railperf' asking about entry speeds.....?

I see you're not the only one who's seen Moonraker then!
(For reference:

)

 

[Goldfish62]

FirstGroup have taken this to extremes, though. There has been more and more padding added to GW schedules over the years to take account of this. Crawling into and out of platforms at 10mph is simply not needed.

Interesting to note that SWR are now exhibiting similar driving characteristics with an increasing number of trains being driven like the driver is a frightened old woman going to the shops.

Been like that on SWT for years.

 

[43096]

Been like that on SWT for years.

Definitely got worse since Worst took over, at least on the Reading line.

 

[lammergeier]

Probably at depots like Bristol I expect can't imagine anywhere else?

I've heard Bristol mentioned a few times in conversations about slow driving, is it just a GWR in-joke or is there an element of truth in it? Any reasons why if so?

 

[irish_rail]

I've heard Bristol mentioned a few times in conversations about slow driving, is it just a GWR in-joke or is there an element of truth in it? Any reasons why if so?

I think for a while the management there were very strict so drivers felt forced to drive a certain way. Not too sure on the current management situation now tbh.

 

[DJH1971]

Now that Virgin are relinquishing the East Coast franchise, will the Azumas now be renamed as something else and will they be entering service livery-less?

 

[59CosG95]

Now that Virgin are relinquishing the East Coast franchise, will the Azumas now be renamed as something else and will they be entering service livery-less?

Depends on what the final decision is - we aren't yet sure if DOR will take over or if Virgin will continue to run it as a not-for-profit operation.
If it's the former, livery-less and Azuma-less 800s/801s will be the norm.
If it's the latter...who knows?

 

[TractiveEffort]

ATP is complex - in short, no, there isn’t a specific speed. It continuously works out on the fly the maximum safe speed to be travelling at given line speed, gradient, signal aspect, etc and warns/intervenes the driver as necessary. A train being driven normally shouldn’t see ATP warnings; but in practice it has somewhat hamstrung some of the more “ambitious” drivers.

.

It works out the braking curve to the restrictive signal (or blocks) which is different than saying it works out the safe maximum speed. If the braking is not at a sufficient rate to stop the train before the restrictive signal then it will intervene, give an audible indication and make a full service brake application until the braking curve is back within the rate required.

It does have some set speeds, over speed and release speed, also some platforms - Reading I believe the worst, have speeds set by the track loops.

 

[JN114]

It works out the braking curve to the restrictive signal (or blocks) which is different than saying it works out the safe maximum speed. If the braking is not at a sufficient rate to

To those if us who know the minutiae of the system; correct - but to a relative lay-person enquiry on a forum such as this I thought it a perfectly adequate explanation without having to go into the depths of braking curves and release speeds and so on. As a point of order; Release speeds are the maximum safe speed on the assumption that the signal they are protecting - passing the signal at release speed will enable ATP to stop the train before the conflict point, that’s how they’re calculated. And they are calculated by the VOBC: that’s why you have to enter they type/reason of speed restriction in the VOBC when a speed certificate is issued; it will calculate slightly different curves/release speeds for certain brake isolation scenarios and so forth.

 

[TractiveEffort]

To those if us who know the minutiae of the system; correct - but to a relative lay-person enquiry on a forum such as this I thought it a perfectly adequate explanation without having to go into the depths of braking curves and release speeds and so on. As a point of order; Release speeds are the maximum safe speed on the assumption that the signal they are protecting - passing the signal at release speed will enable ATP to stop the train before the conflict point, that’s how they’re calculated. And they are calculated by the VOBC: that’s why you have to enter they type/reason of speed restriction in the VOBC when a speed certificate is issued; it will calculate slightly different curves/release speeds for certain brake isolation scenarios and so forth.

I always think the bizarre thing is any onboard defect and the train is out of service, yet track defects that leave sections unsupervised or on partial supervision can go on for ages, could never work that one out!

 

[JN114]

I always think the bizarre thing is any onboard defect and the train is out of service, yet track defects that leave sections unsupervised or on partial supervision can go on for ages, could never work that one out!

Its in the GWR Appendix to Rulebook and the 1640 matrix (for the lay-person - an internal GWR document to determine control’s response to various on-train defects) so that’s what we have to go off. I agree that it is often frustrating! More so when you have a Full and Standing up Penzance and need to terminate it at Newbury because you can’t go onto ATP-fitted lines with ATP isolated; and you remember that the B&H is actually ATP fitted from Newbury Racecourse to Theale...

Anyway, while an interesting discussion - we’re going way off Class 800s! TE feel free to PM me if you want to vent further about ATP!

 

[corsaVXR]

How many Class 800s are in service? Any 9 car units in service yet?

 

[hexagon789]

Surely the IEPs still have a full service retardation rate of 9%g but presumably with enhanced emergency braking (12%g) which the HSTs don't have. If so I don't how the service braking is better other than perhaps more positive application and release.

 

[TractiveEffort]

How many Class 800s are in service? Any 9 car units in service yet?

26. No

 

[hexagon789]

26. No

Any ideas when the 9-cars are due to enter service at all?

 

[JN114]

Any ideas when the 9-cars are due to enter service at all?

“Summer”

 

[hexagon789]

“Summer”

So March next year, then?

 

[Clarence Yard]

11th June 2018, to be precise.

Deliveries & unit acceptance permitting.

 

[hexagon789]

11th June 2018, to be precise.

Deliveries & unit acceptance permitting.

I see, so June next year then?