GWR Dec 19 timetable

[800002]

They aren’t listed as such. They are showing as five coaches which I presume means they will be splitting at Cheltenham.

Where does the detached unit go?

 

[Mintona]

Where does the detached unit go?

I’ve only seen the passenger timetable, not the full list of ECS moves. But I’d put money on it being empty to Stoke Gifford.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I have been assured that they will not be running along the South or North Cotswolds line unless at a last minute change. If you have any evidence to suggest this that would be great, but good luck to the signallers being limited to just 1 platform that it will occupy for 8+ minutes.

Your assurances received are clearly badly informed. I have first hand knowledge of the fact that 10-car trains will be calling a Gloucester from the first day of the timetable (or at least the first Monday.) It would be happening today, if it weren’t for the fact that the current timetable does not provide the necessary booked slots in platform 4. December timetable on the other hand, does.

 

[Envoy]

Eh? How does that work then?

If one comes from south Wales by car to pick up a train to London, then the stations where it would be possible are Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Didcot or Reading.

Bristol Parkway station was designed to be an easily useable interchange between rail and the adjacent motorway network. The other stations and their car parks are some way from the M4: Swindon is some 4 1/2 miles from the western motorway junction and one has to drive through the town and the one way system; Didcot is over 12 miles from the M4 along the very busy A34 and Reading is over 4 miles from the M4 via the A33 and the congested town centre. There is a charge for using any of these car parks.

Are you seriously suggesting that a significant proportion of the number of cars on the M4 are made up by people travelling from south Wales towards London using the motorway for some of the journey? I agree that Bristol Parkway could well be used for such a purpose, but only a very few would even think of using the other stations.

Time is also a very important consideration, and as the saying goes 'Time is Money'.

The money saving is so great that it is worth the hassle of using the car for part of a journey from Cardiff to London. Walk on day return weekday fares from Cardiff to London are:>
£242 (up to about 8am) then £107.80 & the price does not drop to a ‘bargain’ £81.30 until the 9.56 departure. This compares with £27.40 day off-peak return from Didcot to London for the 9.17am IET departure & later. So, it clearly pays to use the car and not use the train for the entire journey!

 

[coppercapped]

The money saving is so great that it is worth the hassle of using the car for part of a journey from Cardiff to London. Walk on day return weekday fares from Cardiff to London are:>
£242 (up to about 8am) then £107.80 & the price does not drop to a ‘bargain’ £81.30 until the 9.56 departure. This compares with £27.40 day off-peak return from Didcot to London for the 9.17am IET departure & later. So, it clearly pays to use the car and not use the train for the entire journey!

Do you have evidence that people do this, or is it a supposition based on the fares? Google suggests that the journey time by road from Cardiff to arrive at Didcot at 09.00 varies between 1hr 50 mins and 2 hr 40 mins; it recommends leaving by 06.20. Arrival time at Paddington is 09.59, making the whole journey from Cardiff some 3hrs 40 mins.

One could have the same arrival time (actually 09.55) and leave Cardiff by train at 07.56, about an hour and a half later. A typical fare would be £171.60 based on an Advanced Standard fare of £107.50 for the outward trip and £64.10 for a off-peak single on the 18.45 departure for the return. Cheapskates could save even more if they came back on the 20.15 and bought an Advance single for £43.50 making a total of £151.00.

The CDR from Didcot that you mention is hedged with restrictions for the return journey. It may not be used on the following trains from Paddington (data from brfares.com, the time in brackets is the departure time from Reading). I can't be bothered to check whether all these trains call at Didcot:

16:00 (16:27) to Bristol Temple Meads
16:15 (16:41) to Swansea
16:45 (17:11) to Swansea
17:00 (17:26) to Bristol Temple Meads
17:15 (17:41) to Carmarthen
17:42 to Cheltenham Spa
17:45 (18:11) to Swansea
18:00 (18:27) to Bristol Temple Meads
18:14 (18:42) to Swansea
18:30 (18:56) to Weston-Super-Mare
18:37 to Cheltenham Spa
18:45 (19:11) to Swansea
19:00 (19:27) to Bristol Temple Meads
19:15 (19:41) to Swansea

So it will take some time to get back to Didcot to collect the waiting car. If one wants to leave between these times one would have to use a local train to Didcot, either direct or change at Reading.

So one could theoretically save around £123, but at a cost of a total journey time which will be between three and four hours longer.

If that's what floats your boat - then go for it!

 

[800002]

I’ve only seen the passenger timetable, not the full list of ECS moves. But I’d put money on it being empty to Stoke Gifford.

Fair dos.
Any ideas on when the December Diagrams will be finalised?
Presumably STP timetable will be available in open data come end of week after next week (20th Sept) - so long as NR are publishing at T-12 these days...

 

[Mintona]

Fair dos.
Any ideas on when the December Diagrams will be finalised?
Presumably STP timetable will be available in open data come end of week after next week (20th Sept) - so long as NR are publishing at T-12 these days...

No, I don’t know when they will be finalised. They might already be but I haven’t come across that information just yet.

 

[gaillark]

With the Dec 2019 can anybody in the know answer whether the train formations will be altered to ensure that first class will always be located at the London end like it used to be in the days of HST operation.
My personal view is that both Hitachi and GWR are making very little effort to ensure that the train is in the right position.
When you pay premium prices one would appreciate a little more consistency. Obviously it's not the drivers fault that trains are out of sequence but more of a lack of management attention to detail at depots.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

With the Dec 2019 can anybody in the know answer whether the train formations will be altered to ensure that first class will always be located at the London end like it used to be in the days of HST operation.
My personal view is that both Hitachi and GWR are making very little effort to ensure that the train is in the right position.
When you pay premium prices one would appreciate a little more consistency. Obviously it's not the drivers fault that trains are out of sequence but more of a lack of management attention to detail at depots.

Thank you - I'm glad someone else is in the same position as me. That's why for my recent trip to and from Cardiff Central, for the GWR trips (12:56 from Didcot Parkway to Cardiff Central and the 19:25 back) I clicked 'Don't Mind' when selecting the direction of travel as my seat could be backward facing which they weren't!

I can do backwards on IET's but I prefer my seating preference to be met (if I ever select forwards again) unless the journey involves a reversal.

At Didcot Parkway on the 01/06/19 or 02/06/19 when I said to a member of staff something that like it's weird that the HST's have gone, he said 'I know, not right is it'. I nearly said yes (in terms of the formation of where First Class is, yes)*.

*The only thing I dont like about the GWR IET's (which I said to him) is that they're formed differently (I think I mentioned that First Class is sometimes at either end). He agreed with me on that. He mentioned that when he's helped people on with wheelchairs, he could be stood at the right location and the train comes in different to what it says on the platform Customer Information Screen.

The GWR reservations team needs to except that they can't guarantee direction of travel and should remove the option of direction of travel - why do you think CrossCountry don't provide it even on journeys that usually involve one direction rather than a reversal? Because it depends how the train is formed and the train may have to reverse direction.

I might mention that to GWR when a good time.

 

[jimm]

With the Dec 2019 can anybody in the know answer whether the train formations will be altered to ensure that first class will always be located at the London end like it used to be in the days of HST operation.
My personal view is that both Hitachi and GWR are making very little effort to ensure that the train is in the right position.
When you pay premium prices one would appreciate a little more consistency. Obviously it's not the drivers fault that trains are out of sequence but more of a lack of management attention to detail at depots.

Great myths of our time - HSTs were not always formed with first class at the London end.

That was the theory but needless to say it did not always work out like that in the real world and I rode on plenty of HSTs down the years where the train was in reverse formation.

Nothing has changed with the use of IETs and I would say that while things were pretty patchy for the first year or so of operation, this year, far more often than not, it is the case that first class (on nine-car sets at least) is indeed at the London end.

 

[Mintona]

It’s definitely been better recently, particularly with the nine-car sets. I’ve turned a few in the evening lately to make sure they’ll be right the following morning.

The problem with the ten-car sets seems to be that often one is right and one is wrong so turning them doesn’t make any difference.

 

[JN114]

It’s been made easier now they’re route cleared to; and infrastructure mods to enable turning have been completed at; Greenford. You sometimes get odd daytime moves up to Greenford to turn on the triangle with layover sets. But after 18 months of not really caring there’s a lot of turning to be done.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It’s definitely been better recently, particularly with the nine-car sets. I’ve turned a few in the evening lately to make sure they’ll be right the following morning.

The problem with the ten-car sets seems to be that often one is right and one is wrong so turning them doesn’t make any difference.

Wow so if I'm reading this right, you're one of the people who turn the IET's round so they're facing the right way ? How can trains be turned round in the depot? Ive never come across turntables when I've passed train depots. The only ones I've seen are ar Didcot Railway Centre and York railway museum.

 

[FGW_DID]

Wow so if I'm reading this right, you're one of the people who turn the IET's round so they're facing the right way ? How can trains be turned round in the depot? Ive never come across turntables when I've passed train depots. The only ones I've seen are ar Didcot Railway Centre and York railway museum.

Don’t get too excited, there aren’t any turntables at the depots, the sets will get turned on a triangle e.g Greenford, Didcot, Reading.

 

[Mag_seven]

Don’t get too excited, there aren’t any turntables at the depots, the sets will get turned on a triangle e.g Greenford, Didcot, Reading.

Not Greenford anymore however due to Old Oak Common to Park Royal being severed!

 

[Non Multi]

Not Greenford anymore however due to Old Oak Common to Park Royal being severed!

West Ealing / Drayton Green Jn still has a triangle of lines. Not sure if it's used for turning though.

 

[800002]

Don’t get too excited, there aren’t any turntables at the depots, the sets will get turned on a triangle e.g Greenford, Didcot, Reading.

Or a double shunt at Bristol, ie: Stoke Gifford - Parkway (reverse) - Temple Meads (reverse). Can it also be done now at lawrance Hill, of the Filton Bank??

Not Greenford anymore however due to Old Oak Common to Park Royal being severed!

It's such a shame the Wycombe Single has been lost. But you can go down to Greenford, from the west, reverse, and back up to pad to the East.

 

[Mag_seven]

West Ealing / Drayton Green Jn still has a triangle of lines. Not sure if it's used for turning though.

That would involve the driver having to change ends twice - with Old Oak Common-Park Royal-Greenford-Ealing there was no need for any changing ends. Reading and Didcot turning moves would also involve changing ends as they are also "triangles".

 

[800002]

That would involve the driver having to change ends twice - with Old Oak Common-Park Royal-Greenford-Ealing there was no need for any changing ends. Reading and Didcot turning moves would also involve changing ends as they are also "triangles".

There aren't any little circuits like that anymore. Just quite big ones, like Severn Tunnel Jn - Gloucester - Standish Jn - Westerleigh Jn - Severn Tunnel (but I think that's going a little too far...)
Any ideas on how much it costs to do a simple turning move, like track access; fuel; crew cost etc, these days?

If you've got two drivers though, no need to swap ends

 

[JN114]

Not Greenford anymore however due to Old Oak Common to Park Royal being severed!

Yes Greenford - indeed there have been some recent infrastructure changes including provision of walking routes and stop markers to facilitate turning moves on the triangle at Greenford, and gauge clearance works at Castle Bar Park, South Greenford etc.

It was precisely these works I referenced in my post up thread.

 

[Mag_seven]

Yes Greenford - indeed there have been some recent infrastructure changes including provision of walking routes and stop markers to facilitate turning moves on the triangle at Greenford, and gauge clearance works at Castle Bar Park, South Greenford etc.

It was precisely these works I referenced in my post up thread.

Good to know - a turning facility at the London end is obviously a must even though changing ends (or double manning) will be required.

 

[gaillark]

Thank you to all who have posted here regarding turning.
Yes the 9 cars are improving.
10 car is a nightmare .

The HST's were right formed well over 90 percent of the time but towards the end especially when OCC closed they were all over the place ... However the interior abience and comfort more than made up for the inconvenience unlike today.

I do hope that management will understand that it's the small things that customers (passengers ) notice that makes the difference and redouble their efforts to get it right. Yes it might use a few driver resources but it needs to be done for the passengers just like ensuring toilets are clean and stocked with soap!

I do hope that this will get sorted out quickly for Dec 2019 and work on getting the leading 10 cars right formed although splitting on route will add some complications at times.

 

[800002]

I'm currently struggling to work out how the units are being / have been turned during the course of the daily running.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm incorrect (and please do), but generally speaking, at Laira - don't the units go onto the depot via the Carriage Wash Lipson Jn / Mt. Gould Jn and then go out that way via Mt. Gould Jn / Lipson Jn. (if the turn isn't required, then it can exit at Laira Jn instead).
Stoke Gifford; Swansea Maliphant and North Pole the units go on and come out fairly straight forwardly.

I can see the odd unit getting turned, late evening for example:
SX 1C38 2332 Paddington - Cardiff Central (via Box, Bristol TM (reverse), Newport) thus being turned. It then runs ECS to Bristol Parkway #4 (5C38 0245 Cardiff Central - Bristol Parkway) then I think it sits there till 0441 forming the 3G04 to Cheltenham Spa (Gloucester reverse) / 1G04 0553 Cheltenham - Paddington (Gloucester reverse) thus not returning the set to the 1st at London / Country (whichever is started off at, as the previous days 1C38).
The SO, 1C38 Terminates Bristol TM then goes off to Stoke Gifford via a reverse at Parkway, maintaining its orientation.

But I suppose if you do that five nights out of 7, with five different units, and you're not turning them back again, sooner or later the whole fleet is going to be a 50/50 chance of 1st at London / 1st at Country end.
I know it sounds fairly minor and all, but it all comes down to offering a consistent and reliable customer service.

 

[Mintona]

Wow so if I'm reading this right, you're one of the people who turn the IET's round so they're facing the right way ? How can trains be turned round in the depot? Ive never come across turntables when I've passed train depots. The only ones I've seen are ar Didcot Railway Centre and York railway museum.

No, not on the depot. Just on an empty stock move from Bristol to Stoke Gifford, sometimes get turned via North Somerset Jn. Or coming empty back from Cheltenham will go via Gloucester to make sure it’s the right way around.

 

[class ep-09]

There is also possibility to turn around sets at Worcester ( not utilised at present):
Worcester Fgte Street - Henwick Jn (reverse on to Droitwich line) - Tunnel Jn (reverse towards Shrub Hill).

 

[JN114]

There is also possibility to turn around sets at Worcester ( not utilised at present):
Worcester Fgte Street - Henwick Jn (reverse on to Droitwich line) - Tunnel Jn (reverse towards Shrub Hill).

Unless I’m mistaken there aren’t any depots at GWR that ‘sign’ the 3rd side of the triangle (Henwick - Tunnel Jcn)

 

[class ep-09]

Unless I’m mistaken there aren’t any depots at GWR that ‘sign’ the 3rd side of the triangle (Henwick - Tunnel Jcn)

Worcester HSS does, but has not been put in to practice yet.

 

[irish_rail]

I'm currently struggling to work out how the units are being / have been turned during the course of the daily running.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm incorrect (and please do), but generally speaking, at Laira - don't the units go onto the depot via the Carriage Wash Lipson Jn / Mt. Gould Jn and then go out that way via Mt. Gould Jn / Lipson Jn. (if the turn isn't required, then it can exit at Laira Jn instead).
Stoke Gifford; Swansea Maliphant and North Pole the units go on and come out fairly straight forwardly.

I can see the odd unit getting turned, late evening for example:
SX 1C38 2332 Paddington - Cardiff Central (via Box, Bristol TM (reverse), Newport) thus being turned. It then runs ECS to Bristol Parkway #4 (5C38 0245 Cardiff Central - Bristol Parkway) then I think it sits there till 0441 forming the 3G04 to Cheltenham Spa (Gloucester reverse) / 1G04 0553 Cheltenham - Paddington (Gloucester reverse) thus not returning the set to the 1st at London / Country (whichever is started off at, as the previous days 1C38).
The SO, 1C38 Terminates Bristol TM then goes off to Stoke Gifford via a reverse at Parkway, maintaining its orientation.

But I suppose if you do that five nights out of 7, with five different units, and you're not turning them back again, sooner or later the whole fleet is going to be a 50/50 chance of 1st at London / 1st at Country end.
I know it sounds fairly minor and all, but it all comes down to offering a consistent and reliable customer service.

Trouble is stuff will often come off laira depot via laira junction (as opposed to lipson junction) thus causing it to be wrong way round. Due to the sheer number of moves from December this will become an even more regular event so I don't think we will be seeing correct 10 car formations anytime soon. I have been watching the situation closely (from the cab cctv whenever I am driving a 10 car that is incorrectly formed) and let's just say it is causing more than a little bit of inconvenience to passengers who are regularly seen having to walk the entire length of the train (or at least half of it) along the platform, subsequently delaying the train as well. This isn't acceptable in my view. Many are elderly or infirm or have large luggage.

Also, XC are kicking off apparently over the huge delays now faced trying to get onto Laira depot in the evening due to the queues now being caused by too many "small" trains. Again this is set to get significantly worse come December when we lose the 9 cars and gain yet more 5 car IETs down here. I cannot see Laira coping. Something has to give. December will certainly be interesting!!

 

[jimm]

There is also possibility to turn around sets at Worcester ( not utilised at present):
Worcester Fgte Street - Henwick Jn (reverse on to Droitwich line) - Tunnel Jn (reverse towards Shrub Hill).

Worcester HSS does, but has not been put in to practice yet.

There may be a possibility but whether it is practical - due to the heavy use of the single-line sections much of the day, the increase from December in the number of trains that terminate at Great Malvern rather than Worcester and the overnight possession of the Shrub Hill station area - is another matter.

 

[Thunderer]

Great myths of our time - HSTs were not always formed with first class at the London end.

That was the theory but needless to say it did not always work out like that in the real world and I rode on plenty of HSTs down the years where the train was in reverse formation.

Nothing has changed with the use of IETs and I would say that while things were pretty patchy for the first year or so of operation, this year, far more often than not, it is the case that first class (on nine-car sets at least) is indeed at the London end.

I agree HST's were not always formed with 1st class at the London end, but then you had 2 choices, front or at the rear, so you knew where to stand on the platform if you were travelling 1st class. Now with 2 x 5 car IET's, its an annoying lottery (one which station displays frequently get wrong) - 1st class could be coaches 1+2, 9+10; 4+5, 9+10; 4+5, 6+7; 1+2, 6+7 etc. It causes no end of confusion for people travelling in both classes, plus you have to take a gamble (if you haven't reserved seats) and choose a 5 car set where you think you will get a seat in 1st class. Pick the wrong one (as I did the other day at Cardiff for a journey to Swansea) and you are stumped, as you can't walk through the other portion of the train to see if there is a 1st clsss seat there. In fact, I got out in Bridgend and popped into the rear portion to actually get a First Class Seat! Its a shambles to be honest and a badly thought out plan (from the "experts" at the DfT) which has now been put into practice. It just goes to show, passengers are low down on the list of priorities (the interior proves that) - its all about money and "operational convenience" and not providing a decent service. Passengers are fleeced for fares and treated with contempt. This is why I use my car more than ever since the introduction of these IET trains, adding more congestion to the already congested M4. Well done DFT, the IET is a real winner!