GWR Intercity Express Train (IEP) initial diagrams & allocations

[FGW_DID]

Hi @FGW_DID .. just confirming these 802 diagrams should be active this week?

Yes, as per post #1562 with the following alterations / additions:

IW951: No 1D20 & 1P26, instead stays coupled to IW960.

IW955 & 964: No 1C04 / 1A93

IW956 & IW965: Stoke Gifford > 5A04 > 1A04 > 1B15 > 1L62 > 1C21 > 1A28 > 1B88 > 5B88 > Swansea Maliphant.

IW957 & IW966: Swansea Maliphant > 5L08 > 1L08 > 1C06 > 1A14 > 1B37 > 1L74 > 1C26 > 2M70 > 5M70 > Stoke Gifford.

Note:

1D20 / 1P26 now on an 800/0 diagram (NP131)
1C04 / 1A93 now on an HST diagram (IW26)

Usual disclaimers apply

 

[Thunderer]

2 busy and key South Wales to London services short formed this morning. 1L38 and 1L42 both 5 car only. Nice and cosy on there I bet? Unless they add another set to these during the course of the day, that means that the 16:45 Padd-Swansea and 17:30 Padd-Taunton will both be 5 cars this evening during the London rush hour. I think this is grossly unfair on passengers who have to use these busy services and pay a hefty price to get a train with reduced capacity and standing room only. Its about time Hitachi Got their act together, as 5 car trains instead of 10 are still a common occurance. With most of the class 800's accepted into service, its a poor show. It was a daft Dft idea to build a fleet of Express trains trains different sizes. All Express trains for GWR should have been 9 coaches long with a seperate fleet of smaller dedicated trains built to replace the turbos. I know people have said "you don't need 9 cars between Plymouth and Penzance off peak in the winter" but on the other hand, you don't need a 5 coach train with only 3.5 coaches of standard class working morning peak services out of South Wales and evening peak services out of London. Its a mess and I fear more people will choose to opt back to road transport. I was recently speaking with a member of GWR on board staff, and they have noticed that they are already loosing First Class commuters off the regular services since the IET took over. Feedback was that they no longer think they are getting value for money and having travelled First Class in an 800, I tend to agree with them.

 

[Railperf]

I fear more people will choose to opt back to road transport..

I don't think anyone in their right mind would consider driving up the M4 to London and back in the rush hour on a regular basis - no chance. It might cause people to reconsider where they work though - maybe closer to home - and that is never a bad thing.
Clearly the situation is frustrating - but probably this time next year the issues will have been put to bed. If the spare 5-car units were not available - then it is for good reason...not an intent to annoy passengers. You can bet staff all round would have been doing their best to get the additional unit in service. I suppose the other option would have been to cancel one of the services and have 10-cars running on the other - but that would have upset people too. The frustration is understanding. People's cars break down and suffer flat tyres etc - so the same understanding needs to be offered towards the railway. Nobody ever said it is a perfect 100% reliable service!!

 

[jimm]

It was a daft Dft idea to build a fleet of Express trains trains different sizes. All Express trains for GWR should have been 9 coaches long with a seperate fleet of smaller dedicated trains built to replace the turbos.

On a like-for-like replacement basis that would mean 50-odd long trains, as the DfT would never have allowed GWR to acquire lots more sets seating 600+ passengers, and a GWML service pattern frozen in time for decades to come - like I said above, no hourly Cheltenham service, Bristol off-peak limited stops, etc. Never mind that some of those HSTs were being used for large parts of their working lives on duties that did not need anything like 500+ seats.

Just replacing the (five-car, 125mph capable - remind you of anything?) Class 180s and relevant Turbo diagrams with something other than 80xs would have resulted in a small niche fleet with all the operational and cost implications that would come with that, would have to be bi-mode for work on the Cotswold Line or anywhere else past the wires and would also need to be at least 110mph capable to keep up with the 387s on the main lines between London and Didcot/beyond, never mind IETs.

If they were to be regarded as suitable for journeys of two or three hours plus, in the way Turbos have been used to Worcestershire and Hereford for a very long time, then why not use this type of train to Bristol, Cheltenham or Cardiff too, in fact, why not build it in long formations as well and use it everywhere in the GWR area?

Which sounds to me rather like the IET fleet.

 

[Thunderer]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would consider driving up the M4 to London and back in the rush hour on a regular basis - no chance. It might cause people to reconsider where they work though - maybe closer to home - and that is never a bad thing.
Clearly the situation is frustrating - but probably this time next year the issues will have been put to bed. If the spare 5-car units were not available - then it is for good reason...not an intent to annoy passengers. You can bet staff all round would have been doing their best to get the additional unit in service. I suppose the other option would have been to cancel one of the services and have 10-cars running on the other - but that would have upset people too. The frustration is understanding. People's cars break down and suffer flat tyres etc - so the same understanding needs to be offered towards the railway. Nobody ever said it is a perfect 100% reliable service!!

"Nobody ever said it is a perfect 100% reliable service" Very true, but what we have as a whole now (thanks to Government meddling and the IEP) is a de-improvement from what we had before. Uncomfortable trains with limited flexibility, due to the DAfT Agility contract, which can hamper day to day GWR operation of the class 800's. Brand new trains breaking down, catching fire, unable to couple with each other, doors not closing etc etc, the list is endless. For the money spent on these trains and the time they had to test them, there is no way they should be experiencing the number of issues they have experienced in service. As I understand it, the 802's are performing even worse? Its a very expensive, over complex Government cock-up, that us poor GWR passengers have to live with for the next 27 years plus.

 

[Thunderer]

On a like-for-like replacement basis that would mean 50-odd long trains, as the DfT would never have allowed GWR to acquire lots more sets seating 600+ passengers, and a GWML service pattern frozen in time for decades to come - like I said above, no hourly Cheltenham service, Bristol off-peak limited stops, etc. Never mind that some of those HSTs were being used for large parts of their working lives on duties that did not need anything like 500+ seats.

Just replacing the (five-car, 125mph capable - remind you of anything?) Class 180s and relevant Turbo diagrams with something other than 80xs would have resulted in a small niche fleet with all the operational and cost implications that would come with that, would have to be bi-mode for work on the Cotswold Line or anywhere else past the wires and would also need to be at least 110mph capable to keep up with the 387s on the main lines between London and Didcot/beyond, never mind IETs.

If they were to be regarded as suitable for journeys of two or three hours plus, in the way Turbos have been used to Worcestershire and Hereford for a very long time, then why not use this type of train to Bristol, Cheltenham or Cardiff too, in fact, why not build it in long formations as well and use it everywhere in the GWR area?

Which sounds to me rather like the IET fleet.

I certainly get the point of the niche fleet and its a valid point. I didn't think of that. However, why not build all the IET's as 9 car? We have to allow for future growth in rail travel, especially on the Bristol-Swindon-Oxford-London commuter belt. For off peak services, why not encourage more people to travel with advertising and competitive fare offers? Prize them off our busy motorways which will happen by default more and more over time, as our roads and motorways get ever more congested, so the railways will need the capacity to cater for growth over the next 27 plus years of the IEP contract. At some point (if the DFT allows it?) I can realistically see GWR requesting for more coaches to be added to the 5 car sets, before the Newton Ayecliffe plant and the knowledge/work force disappears if/when the order book dries up. Even if they just add 1 standard coach to make a 6 car set, that gives an extra potential 88 seats with a 7 car an extra potential 176 seats, so it would ease overcrowding should a 6 or 7 have to work vice 9, plus you have the extra capacity then to allow for future growth on the Oxford, Bedwyn, Cotswold Services by having a 6 or a 7 car.

 

[Railperf]

"Nobody ever said it is a perfect 100% reliable service" Very true, but what we have as a whole now (thanks to Government meddling and the IEP) is a de-improvement from what we had before. Uncomfortable trains with limited flexibility, due to the DAfT Agility contract, which can hamper day to day GWR operation of the class 800's. Brand new trains breaking down, catching fire, unable to couple with each other, doors not closing etc etc, the list is endless. For the money spent on these trains and the time they had to test them, there is no way they should be experiencing the number of issues they have experienced in service. As I understand it, the 802's are performing even worse?

What people seem to forget here is that the UK railways are pioneering the use of bi-mode diesel and electric trains on high frequency 125mph services on a classic rail network.
Nobody else in the world is doing this or has done this in terms of service frequency number of passengers carried average speeds and the wide range of destinations covered.
We're only a year into introduction of these trains into passenger service. It is clear they are not the perfect specification in many areas. But we all know the specification was all about going greener using less energy and trying to keep maintenance costs down . To be fair it was a pretty bold move to order trains from a supplier who would never built bi-mode trains before. But then again would you go and buy bi-mode trains from Alstom - whose class 180 125mph dmu's appear to be the most unreliable on ghe network?
If my experience on Saturday - thundering up and down the Great Western main line between London and Reading several times - was anything to go by, the majority of services seemed to be running to time, and if they weren't, the problems seemed to be caused by other issues rather than the trains themselves.
In all fairness the 802's are a slightly different product and you could argue they are still running in. So it won't surprise me that they will have a few more issues than the 800's for a while until these are ironed out.
Hitachi's reputation is on the line and you can bet your bottom dollar they will be doing everything in their power to fix the issues and get these trains running as reliably as they should. And I believe they will eventually fix things. It is going to take time. No manufacturers seems to be immune from having rolling stock introduction issues. It just takes time to sort those out. And maybe the bigger issue is the cascade plan which did not take into account delivery delays and maybe more than expected teething problems. In which case may be some of the older rolling stock could have been kept around until the trains were really ready.

 

[jimm]

I certainly get the point of the niche fleet and its a valid point. I didn't think of that. However, why not build all the IET's as 9 car? We have to allow for future growth in rail travel, especially on the Bristol-Swindon-Oxford-London commuter belt. For off peak services, why not encourage more people to travel with advertising and competitive fare offers? Prize them off our busy motorways which will happen by default more and more over time, as our roads and motorways get ever more congested, so the railways will need the capacity to cater for growth over the next 27 plus years of the IEP contract. At some point (if the DFT allows it?) I can realistically see GWR requesting for more coaches to be added to the 5 car sets, before the Newton Ayecliffe plant and the knowledge/work force disappears if/when the order book dries up. Even if they just add 1 standard coach to make a 6 car set, that gives an extra potential 88 seats with a 7 car an extra potential 176 seats, so it would ease overcrowding should a 6 or 7 have to work vice 9, plus you have the extra capacity then to allow for future growth on the Oxford, Bedwyn, Cotswold Services by having a 6 or a 7 car.

The DfT will never ever allow GWR to have a limitless supply of nine-car IETs. If all the 800 and 802 sets delivered or on their way to GWR were nine-car, then there would be 93 of them. As opposed to 52 or 53 HSTs, five 180s and perhaps a dozen Turbo diagrams.

Just try filling all the seats on all those 640-seat trains, however brilliant the marketing. Lots of journeys made on motorways are local or only partly parallel rail services, the government has consistently refused to increase tax on petrol and diesel in recent years and the GWR IET fleet as currently constituted already represents a substantial increase in capacity on the assorted trains that it is replacing, with the 387s adding to capacity available in the Thames Valley as well.

This thread is supposed to be about diagrams, not the trains generally, for which there is another thread, where the length of the trains has been done to death over the years, so perhaps we could call a halt here?

 

[Trainfan061193]

Apparently more West Country diagrams are going over to IET beginning of December so I got told on WNXX.

 

[FGW_DID]

Apparently more West Country diagrams are going over to IET beginning of December so I got told on WNXX.

Not surprising, as from 9/12 there are only 13 HST diagrams.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

Not surprising, as from 9/12 there are only 13 HST diagrams.

I suspect most of the diagrams will start/end the day at SPM depot from 09/12.

 

[FGW_DID]

I suspect most of the diagrams will start/end the day at SPM depot from 09/12.

LTP SX diagrams start of day:

4x Laira
4x Penzance
4x SPM
1x Worcester.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

LTP SX diagrams start of day:

4x Laira
4x Penzance
4x SPM
1x Worcester.

Thanks for the weekday diagrams.

 

[ValleyLines142]

2 busy and key South Wales to London services short formed this morning. 1L38 and 1L42 both 5 car only. Nice and cosy on there I bet? Unless they add another set to these during the course of the day, that means that the 16:45 Padd-Swansea and 17:30 Padd-Taunton will both be 5 cars this evening during the London rush hour. I think this is grossly unfair on passengers who have to use these busy services and pay a hefty price to get a train with reduced capacity and standing room only. Its about time Hitachi Got their act together, as 5 car trains instead of 10 are still a common occurance. With most of the class 800's accepted into service, its a poor show. It was a daft Dft idea to build a fleet of Express trains trains different sizes. All Express trains for GWR should have been 9 coaches long with a seperate fleet of smaller dedicated trains built to replace the turbos. I know people have said "you don't need 9 cars between Plymouth and Penzance off peak in the winter" but on the other hand, you don't need a 5 coach train with only 3.5 coaches of standard class working morning peak services out of South Wales and evening peak services out of London. Its a mess and I fear more people will choose to opt back to road transport. I was recently speaking with a member of GWR on board staff, and they have noticed that they are already loosing First Class commuters off the regular services since the IET took over. Feedback was that they no longer think they are getting value for money and having travelled First Class in an 800, I tend to agree with them.

Spot on.

 

[JN114]

First IET on off peak Padd - Bedwyn fast services should be in service next week.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can a class 800 work in muilti with a Class 802 and if yes have any done so yet? I thought I was on a multi working yesterday, till I realised I'd misread the front unit number (The train I was on was two x 5 car 802).

 

[JN114]

Can a class 800 work in muilti with a Class 802 and if yes have any done so yet? I thought I was on a multi working yesterday, till I realised I'd misread the front unit number (The train I was on was two x 5 car 802).

Per our instructions here they can multi for rescue purposes only. Software between 800s and 802s is not compatible for ordinary operation.

 

[Mag_seven]

Per our instructions here they can multi for rescue purposes only. Software between 800s and 802s is not compatible for ordinary operation.

Ok thanks for confirming - I suppose that means a slight loss of operational flexibility but you can't have everything!

 

[Unclepete]

First IET on off peak Padd - Bedwyn fast services should be in service next week.

Hi, I take it that would be Diesel only working from Reading? or has the Electrics been signed off to Newbury now?

 

[FGW_DID]

Hi, I take it that would be Diesel only working from Reading? or has the Electrics been signed off to Newbury now?

Yes.
No.

 

[Railperf]

Can anyone confirm which diagrams might be 802s tomorrow?

 

[robbeech]

Is the 0831 from Cheltenham Spa to Paddington generally an IET nowadays ?

 

[Mag_seven]

Is the 0831 from Cheltenham Spa to Paddington generally an IET nowadays ?

Yes it is I'm afraid.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Is the 0831 from Cheltenham Spa to Paddington generally an IET nowadays ?

In general yes. The days of any HST on Golden Valley services are coming to an end - in fact days plural should possibly be day singular?

 

[FGW_DID]

Can anyone confirm which diagrams might be 802s tomorrow?

Yes, I presume you actually want the individual workings not just the diagram number e.g IW951

Is the 0831 from Cheltenham Spa to Paddington generally an IET nowadays ?

forthcoming week booked for a 800/3 (9 car).

 

[Railperf]

Yes, I presume you actually want the individual workings not just the diagram number e.g IW951

).

If the diagrams within each diagram number are the same as what you have posted before then just the diagram numbers please

 

[FGW_DID]

If the diagrams within each diagram number are the same as what you have posted before then just the diagram numbers please

Looks like there’s quite a few pairs out so it will be different to what’s been posted previously. Stand by……………

 

[Mark Webster]

What gwr trains in west country are hst tomorrow please?

 

[FGW_DID]

@Railperf

Services on 802 diagrams for Sat 24/11

IW951 & IW966

SM > 1L34 > 1C11 > 1A20 > 1B59 > 5Z51 > SG

IW952 & IW961

NP > 1C04 > 1A85 > 1C89 > LA

IW954 & IW968

NP > 1C74 > 1A82 > 1C86 > 1A35 > NP

IW955 & IW964

NP > 1C76 > 1A87 > 1C92 > LA

IW958 & 965

LA > 1A77 > 1C81 > 1A92 > NP

IW959 & IW960

SG > 1A04 > 1B15 > 1L62 > 1C21 > 1A29 > 1B91 > SM

NP: North Pole
SG: Stoke Gifford
SM: Swansea Maliphant
LA: Laira

Usual Disclaimers etc etc!

 

[FGW_DID]

What gwr trains in west country are hst tomorrow please?

Lots! HST services in the West Country Sat 24/11

2P79 2C64 1Z81 2Z44 2P88 1Z77 1Z94 1Z84
1A75 1C77 1A89 1C95
1A76 1C79 1A91 1C96
2P83 2Z42 1Z85 2Z46 2P92 2Z48 2Z89 1Z60
1A81 1C22 2E57
1C31
1Z80 2Z43 2Z90 2Z47 1Z35 1Z86 1Z92
1A10 1C18 1A26 1C27
1A83 1C87
1A78 1C84 1A94 1C33
1A80 1C85 2Z85
1A15

Usual Disclaimers etc etc!