GWR West Fleet IEP Cascade Update

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co-tr-paul

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Today, 24/6/16, and info received from Fleet Engineering Manager in person.

With the well known IEP delays, the number of 165/166 units retained at Reading depot will increase.

The rest for Bristol as planned for Cardiff-Portsmouth.

This means not all 158s will head west so it looks increasingly likely that the 2+4 HST plan will be signed off by the DfT in July. These will be used for the Bristol to Penzance corridor and will have sliding doors and CET fitted and should carry green livery.

The coach ends will effectively be chopped off and a new design modular door area will be fitted hence cost saving on measuring each coach on an individual basis.

These will be used in conjunction with the AT300s to form the planned Dec 2018 timetable upgrade.
They should remain in service until at least the end of the franchise.
 
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Harbornite

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Today, 24/6/16, and info received from Fleet Engineering Manager in person. With the well known IEP delays, the number of 165/166 units retained at Reading depot will increase. The rest for Bristol as planned for Cardiff-Portsmouth. This means not all 158s will head west so it looks increasingly likely that the 2+4 HST plan will be signed off by the DfT in July. These will be used for the Bristol to Penzance corridor and will have sliding doors and CET fitted and should carry green livery.
The coach ends will effectively be chopped off and a new design modular door area will be fitted hence cost saving on measuring each coach on an individual basis.
These will be used in conjunction with the AT300s to form the planned Dec 2018 timetable upgrade.
They should remain in service until at least the end of the franchise.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Do you know if GWR are planning any more trials with shortened HST sets, and they didn't write off the idea the last time they did tests.
 

co-tr-paul

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No trials were mentioned. It was stated about dwell time at platforms hence sliding doors but future legislation also makes that a requirement. No mention of which sets or power cars but remember, some are owned not leased. The number going to Scotrail is not affected.
 
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Harbornite

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No trials were mentioned. It was stated about dwell time at platforms hence sliding doors but future legislation also makes that a requirement. No mention of which sets or power cars but remember, some are owned not leased. The number going to Scotrail is not affected.

I'll be following this with interest.
 

swt_passenger

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These will be used in conjunction with the AT300s to form the planned Dec 2018 timetable upgrade.
They should remain in service until at least the end of the franchise.

The end of the GWR direct award franchise is supposed to be early 2019 - it hardly seems economic to do this work for only three years from now. Do they therefore mean they'll be kept until the end of the next normal franchise?
 

edwin_m

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The end of the GWR direct award franchise is supposed to be early 2019 - it hardly seems economic to do this work for only three years from now. Do they therefore mean they'll be kept until the end of the next normal franchise?

Alternatively they could fill the gap on the Midland Main Line between the 2020 accessibilty deadline and the completion of electrification, avoiding having to modify or derogate the non-compliant HSTs there.
 

route:oxford

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The coach ends will effectively be chopped off and a new design modular door area will be fitted hence cost saving on measuring each coach on an individual basis.

Given the coaches are going on 40 years old with both original ex-works variations and the fractional changes that come from day-to-day stretch, strain and torque - will a one-size fits all modular approach work well?
 

headshot119

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Wonder whether these 2+4s will be conductor or train manager operated.

I believe it's a requirement of DOO for there to be continuous train detection throughout.

Beyond Plymouth there are stretches of AB territory and therefore the above condition isn't met.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Wonder whether these 2+4s will be conductor or train manager operated.

I believe it's a requirement of DOO for there to be continuous train detection throughout.

Beyond Plymouth there are stretches of AB territory and therefore the above condition isn't met.

Not to mention the fact that HST cabs are "remote" from the passenger accommodation.
 

455driver

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I believe it's a requirement of DOO for there to be continuous train detection throughout.

Beyond Plymouth there are stretches of AB territory and therefore the above condition isn't met.

Relevance?

I am sorry to inform you that there are no plans for these to be operated DOO.
 

ainsworth74

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Perhaps I'm wrong but don't GWR have different guard grades called conductor (who do local services) and train managers (who run long distance HST services)? Therefore is the question not asking which of those two grades will run this service.
 

randyrippley

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will both power cars be powered? Sounds like a chance to convert some to DVTs - you hardly need both engines running, and leaving one idling is a recipe for failures
 

co-tr-paul

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The only crew plan I know is that all services on the Cornwall mainline will have catering.
I have no idea HOW the new coach ends will fit, its a brand new product, just what i have been informed and posted.
They look set to run until 2019/20 and was told " at least" . With around a two year run up between any mew stock being procured and built under a new franchise, they will see plenty of use
My own opinion is that they will be around for a while.....
No doubt exact numbers and such will be published when deal signed off.
.
 
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Dave1987

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That's an enormous amount of HP for a 4 coach train. They will be hugely fast won't they?
 

NotATrainspott

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That's an enormous amount of HP for a 4 coach train. They will be hugely fast won't they?

Yes, they would be quite the pocket rockets.

If the conversion process is cheap enough to do for only a few years, it suggests that it might be done to many more HST sets rather than there being yet more DMUs ordered. There are plenty of longer distance routes where platform lengths aren't a limiting factor that they could be used on for a few years.
 

cjmillsnun

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Why spend all that money on a new door module?

Mk3s do not need power operated doors to comply with PRM-TSI, just improved CDL (with a door open enable sounder) and interior handles.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/203752/high-level-hst-mk3s.pdf

I understand that it'll reduce but as others have said, a modular approach may not work, these coaches have had many years of use and will not be in the shape they were originally, also how will chopping each end off affect the structure? Will these have to be re-approved as this will be a huge modification and grandfather rights might not apply.
 
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fgwrich

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Will these have to be re-approved as this will be a huge modification and grandfather rights might not apply.

Wouldn't have thought so as the Wabtec / Chiltern conversions have shown how it can be done. Ok so it means either moving both Toilets or losing one - probably not too much of a loss as the FGW refurbishment removed one from most coaches anyway - but they can have newer modern doors fitted relatively easily.

Incidentally - Those sets offering catering, I presume will probably make use of the much lighter and space saving Mini Buffets than a heavy full length TRFB/TRSB - something I'd thought would have been more likely to have gone to Scotland.
 

455driver

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That's an enormous amount of HP for a 4 coach train. They will be hugely fast won't they?

I am more concerned about the braking characteristics, there is a lot of weight with 2 power cars but not much brake with only having 4 coaches!
 

Clarence Yard

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Mk3s do not need power operated doors to comply with PRM-TSI, just improved CDL (with a door open enable sounder) and interior handles.

The timing runs showed that power doors were needed to meet the timetable. Slam doors didn't cut it.

The exact power door solution isn't being mandated on the 3 HST owning ROSCOs who have been asked to quote for the work for the required sets (currently 11). They have to come up with their own design or have access to someone else's.

All the sets should be converted by December 2018.
 

455driver

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The timing runs showed that power doors were needed to meet the timetable. Slam doors didn't cut it.

The exact power door solution isn't being mandated on the 3 HST owning ROSCOs who have been asked to quote for the work for the required sets (currently 11). They have to come up with their own design or have access to someone else's.
I am thinking of opening a book on how many it will be next week, and the week after etc etc, I seems to change on a weekly basis! :lol:


It was originally 21, then 25, then 17 and now 11 (or something like that).
 

Philip Phlopp

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I am more concerned about the braking characteristics, there is a lot of weight with 2 power cars but not much brake with only having 4 coaches!

More than enough brake force - the weight of a 2+4 HST formation isn't too different to a 5 car Class 221 Super Voyager, but with another coach and pair of bogies. The BT10 bogies aren't bad from a braking performance viewpoint.
 

455driver

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More than enough brake force - the weight of a 2+4 HST formation isn't too different to a 5 car Class 221 Super Voyager, but with another coach and pair of bogies. The BT10 bogies aren't bad from a braking performance viewpoint.

221s have EP brakes which are much quicker to apply/release, much better WSP control and more even weight distribution, no heavyweight power cars on the ends with (relatively) lightweight carriages in the middle.
 
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Clarence Yard

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I am thinking of opening a book on how many it will be next week, and the week after etc etc, I seems to change on a weekly basis! :lol:


It was originally 21, then 25, then 17 and now 11 (or something like that).

Tell me about it! Trying to plan anything when the electrification and IEP dates change on an almost weekly basis is just bonkers. In nearly 40 years on the job, witnessing plenty of significant mess ups along the way, this is by far the biggest I've ever come across.
 

SpacePhoenix

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221s have EP brakes which are much quicker to apply/release, much better WSP control and more even weight distribution, no heavyweight power cars on the ends with (relatively) lightweight carriages in the middle.

Don't 221s also have Rheostatic braking as well?
 

cjmillsnun

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Wouldn't have thought so as the Wabtec / Chiltern conversions have shown how it can be done. Ok so it means either moving both Toilets or losing one - probably not too much of a loss as the FGW refurbishment removed one from most coaches anyway - but they can have newer modern doors fitted relatively easily.

Incidentally - Those sets offering catering, I presume will probably make use of the much lighter and space saving Mini Buffets than a heavy full length TRFB/TRSB - something I'd thought would have been more likely to have gone to Scotland.

From what I understood, it wasn't the Wabtec/Chiltern style conversion. The OP suggested that the coach ends were to be cut off entirely and replaced with a new module.
 

Philip Phlopp

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221s have EP brakes which are much quicker to apply/release, much better WSP control and more even weight distribution, no heavyweight power cars on the ends with (relatively) lightweight carriages in the middle.

The braking performance of every HST formation is well known and well understood, but the theory of HST braking performance is that each vehicle can brake its own mass equally.

Weight distribution doesn't really come into it, a power car on its own should be able to stop from the same speed in the same distance as a Mark 3 coach on its own. That's not really the case of course, Mark 3 coaches are more effective than they need to be and can add a bit of extra brake force, so longer formations can stop in shorter distances, but a 2+4 formation is fine for braking performance.
 
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