Have TfL been told to accept e-tickets?

alistairlees

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It's really all very simple.

For through tickets (those that are cross-London and carry the "Maltese Cross" symbol), either:
- enable some gates at the gatelines of tube stations at London Terminals with eTicket readers. Don't both with aany tube stations or buses etc. etc.; or
- reduce the price of these tickets (when they are fulfilled to eTicket) by the equivalent of the contactless fare (so £2.40 / £4.80 depending on if it's a single or return journey) and give them a new route code ("Not valid on London Underground or DLR" or something similar), then people can make their own way (tube, bike, walk, taxi as they prefer) between the two London Tetminal stations. In some cases, where it's easy to walk, it will actually make things cheaper.

For zonal tickets, like Travelcards:
- make them only available on smartcard

This way:
- no need for any CCST tickets in London, a fortune can be saved on gateline equipment not needing to be maintained / renewed
- eTickets can be used for cross-London journeys
 
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JonathanH

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For through tickets (those that are cross-London and carry the "Maltese Cross" symbol, either:
There is a third option - keep the fare as it is and remove the ability to use the underground for connections.

The short distance stuff can be dealt with by PAYG extension (to the distance envisaged in the DfT's consultation). The longer distance stuff, which typically involves a journey on a long distance train is simply dealt with by rebooking from London - using PAYG to get to London from the Home Counties.

I'm sure in the eyes of the DfT and Government, people rebook at London anyway. Since through AP fares across London became much more expensive than rebooking in London, I'm sure the number of through fares being bought has reduced anyway.

It is going to result in higher fares for some people obviously but that seems to be government policy anyway.
 
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matt_world2004

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Not nessescary e tickets but with the DfT on the board of TfL it should be used as an opportunity to integrate london underground into the national rail ticketing system
 

Bletchleyite

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Not nessescary e tickets but with the DfT on the board of TfL it should be used as an opportunity to integrate london underground into the national rail ticketing system
I'd rather an all-London mode-agnostic Verbundtarif myself (with a probable discount for bus-only journeys, but everything else ticketed as one including bus use as part of a journey).
 

sheff1

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The correct answer.
I don't think withdrawing tube validity because the person who suggested it prefers to walk or cycle is the correct answer, but there we go.

And all the usual bluster about "use a card" ignores the fact that for many that would result in a fare increase.
 

JonathanH

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I don't think withdrawing tube validity because the person who suggested it prefers to walk or cycle is the correct answer, but there we go.

And all the usual bluster about "use a card" ignores the fact that for many that would result in a fare increase.
It has always been recognised that there will be winners and losers with a change to the fare structure. The point is that the person with ultimate responsibility, Grant Shapps, has made it clear that he wants PAYG and the end of cardboard tickets.

It is possible that the 'convenience' of using PAYG and no real change to peak fares as a result (or decreases for those people who don't have to make both journeys in the peak) will mean the complaints about off-peak travellers paying more just don't get any hearing or volume.
 
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paul1609

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It's really all very simple.

For through tickets (those that are cross-London and carry the "Maltese Cross" symbol), either:
- enable some gates at the gatelines of tube stations at London Terminals with eTicket readers. Don't both with aany tube stations or buses etc. etc.; or
- reduce the price of these tickets (when they are fulfilled to eTicket) by the equivalent of the contactless fare (so £2.40 / £4.80 depending on if it's a single or return journey) and give them a new route code ("Not valid on London Underground or DLR" or something similar), then people can make their own way (tube, bike, walk, taxi as they prefer) between the two London Tetminal stations. In some cases, where it's easy to walk, it will actually make things cheaper.

For zonal tickets, like Travelcards:
- make them only available on smartcard

This way:
- no need for any CCST tickets in London, a fortune can be saved on gateline equipment not needing to be maintained / renewed
- eTickets can be used for cross-London journeys
I havent been on a train for over 2 months but the majority of stations south and east of London didn't then have any facility for taking e tickets. The simple solution is surely just to withdraw the through tickets, they rarely offer the best value anyway in my experience.
 

MikeWh

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It would, but it would only be used at the interchanges with the mainline. Dedicated barriers could be used so only those passengers are served more slowly.
Completely impractical. Each dedicated gate would be at the expense of a normal gate so the majority of passengers would have fewer gates to get through. The people requiring the dedicated gates are those who generally won't be sure what they are doing, so they'll clog up the area making passage through even slower - for everyone. And don't forget that there are quite a few intercahnges, including many that aren't that obvious (eg Lancaster Gate).
 

MikeWh

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I havent been on a train for over 2 months but the majority of stations south and east of London didn't then have any facility for taking e tickets. The simple solution is surely just to withdraw the through tickets, they rarely offer the best value anyway in my experience.
Depends on the destination. I make regular(ish) journeys to both York and Bath. For York it's definitely split tickets but for Bath it's always book through.
 

JonathanH

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I havent been on a train for over 2 months but the majority of stations south and east of London didn't then have any facility for taking e tickets. The simple solution is surely just to withdraw the through tickets, they rarely offer the best value anyway in my experience.
You are possibly mixing up the position with

* advance tickets such as Manchester to Redhill where, since recent changes, the through journey price is often now not competitive since there are a number of levels of advance ticket pricing which are available to Euston but not for the through journey.

* walk up tickets like Redhill to Chelmsford where the through return price is very much cheaper by not splitting.

The point however is that PAYG could be offered for Redhill to Chelmsford while Redhill to Manchester would require rebooking.

I suspect the price of a journey from Redhill to Chelmsford would be more expensive under single fare PAYG than it currently is with paper tickets, particularly if either leg is currently off peak but in future affected by the evening peak but so be it, maybe travel patterns will be somewhat different in the future.
 

paul1609

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Completely impractical. Each dedicated gate would be at the expense of a normal gate so the majority of passengers would have fewer gates to get through. The people requiring the dedicated gates are those who generally won't be sure what they are doing, so they'll clog up the area making passage through even slower - for everyone. And don't forget that there are quite a few intercahnges, including many that aren't that obvious (eg Lancaster Gate).
Brighton has 4 barriers that are E ticket enabled out of about 24.
 

paul1609

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You are possibly mixing up the position with

* advance tickets such as Manchester to Redhill where, since recent changes, the through journey price is often now not competitive since there are a number of levels of advance ticket pricing which are available to Euston but not for the through journey.

* walk up tickets like Redhill to Chelmsford where the through return price is very much cheaper by not splitting.

The point however is that PAYG could be offered for Redhill to Chelmsford while Redhill to Manchester would require rebooking.

I suspect the price of a journey from Redhill to Chelmsford would be more expensive under single fare PAYG than it currently is with paper tickets, particularly if either leg is currently off peak but in future affected by the evening peak but so be it, maybe travel patterns will be somewhat different in the future.
As Greater Anglia has smart season tickets which are presumably ITSO theres no reason why PAYG could'nt be extended over the whole of the Southeast with no change to the hardware. I can already go on the Key from Rye to Brentwood.
Whole of the London South East area goes ITSO/Oyster/Contactless, does away with paper tickets and cash acceptance. The regional metro and express operators can do what they want.
 

MikeWh

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Brighton has 4 barriers that are E ticket enabled out of about 24.
Brighton isn't quite the crowd magnet that stations like Euston, Waterloo etc are, though I don't doubt that there is quite a bit of commuter traffic. Also, we're talking about changing the gates at Underground stations here where the space available for signage (esp overhead) is often limited.
 

JonathanH

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As Greater Anglia has smart season tickets which are presumably ITSO theres no reason why PAYG could'nt be extended over the whole of the Southeast with no change to the hardware. I can already go on the Key from Rye to Brentwood.
Whole of the London South East area goes ITSO/Oyster/Contactless, does away with paper tickets and cash acceptance. The regional metro and express operators can do what they want.
Yes, I suspect that is the point.
 

paul1609

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Brighton isn't quite the crowd magnet that stations like Euston, Waterloo etc are, though I don't doubt that there is quite a bit of commuter traffic. Also, we're talking about changing the gates at Underground stations here where the space available for signage (esp overhead) is often limited.
Brighton is about 17 million exit and entries it would be unusual in a London context in that has nearly as many arriving and exits during both peaks. It also only has one barrier wheras the stations you quote Waterloo and euston have many.
Take your point about underground stations and also stations like Charing Cross mainline. Its why abolishing the through tickets is the obvious answer.
 

Hadders

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Contactless (but not Oyster) has recently been implemented at Hatfield and Brookmans Park which happen to be in Grant Shapps constituency.

Shapps would do well to understand the significant fares increases for leisure travel that his constituents would have if paper tickets are withdrawn.
 

JonathanH

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Contactless (but not Oyster) has recently been implemented at Hatfield and Brookmans Park which happen to be in Grant Shapps constituency.

Shapps would do well to understand the significant fares increases for leisure travel that his constituents would have if paper tickets are withdrawn.
Well yes, and even that disregards the large amount of extra flexibility a paper ticket has for the traveller in terms of break of journey, stopping short etc.

However, I think the convenience of Contactless for peak time commuters, the 'simplicity' of the fare structure and the acceptance of the increases in fares in London associated with the original Oyster implementation has probably won the argument.
 

Hadders

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Well yes, and even that disregards the large amount of extra flexibility a paper ticket has for the traveller in terms of break of journey, stopping short etc.

However, I think the convenience of Contactless for peak time commuters, the 'simplicity' of the fare structure and the acceptance of the increases in fares in London associated with the original Oyster implementation has probably won the argument.
I do hope that fare increases of up to 52% from places like Brookmans Park are not thought of as 'winning the argument'. This is not about things like break of journey, it's about what passengers in Shapp's constituency are paying to travel. Here's a post I wrote last year on this following the introduction of contactless at Brookmans Park. The fares are 2019s but the same is true with this years fares.

Let's look at Brookmans Park to London which must be the most popular flow.

Current paper tickets to Kings Cross:
Anytime Day Return 15.00
Off Peak Day Return (no evening restrictions) 9.90
Super Off Peak Day Return 9.60
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return 7.00

Contactless fares:
Peak 7.50
Off Peak 4.90

So a passenger travelling out in the morning peak and back in the evening peak pays £15 the same as an Anytime paper ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak and back off peak will pay £9.80 compared to £9.60 at present. Small difference but nothing to be too worried about
A passenger travelling out off peak but back in the evening peak will pay £12.40 compared to £9.90 at present. An increase of 25%
A weekend traveller will pay £9.80 compared to £7.00 at present. An increase of 40%

It gets even worse for railcard holders especially at weekends where the current railcard discounted fare is £4.60. Use contactless and you'll pay £7.00 - an increase of 52%

Will there be prominently displayed posters at the station advising passengers that contactless is more expensive for some off peak travel and all travel to London at weekends? Of course not, they'll be reassured by the local MP and SoS for Transport who'll tell them that Contactless will make their journeys cheaper.
 

FQTV

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Barriers on the Tyne & Wear Metro don’t read National Rail orange ticket mag stripes, and they haven’t even managed to sort that out in I don’t know how many years.

Having said that, anyone with an orange ticket just shows it to the accessible gate attendant.
 

hwl

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As Greater Anglia has smart season tickets which are presumably ITSO theres no reason why PAYG could'nt be extended over the whole of the Southeast with no change to the hardware. I can already go on the Key from Rye to Brentwood.
Whole of the London South East area goes ITSO/Oyster/Contactless, does away with paper tickets and cash acceptance. The regional metro and express operators can do what they want.
Agreed there is a big difference between most and all, the last little bit is a huge cost and effort especially if the desire is to do it short term.

I suspect the DfT'd preferred solution is to get Oyster/Tfl contactless working in most of the former NSE area - a big problem is the tech in the oldest Oyster cards and the simple solution there may be to force people onto new cards, the contactless limit changing from £30 to £45 on 1/4/2020 will also help that.
Shapps actually gets on fairly well with the Mayor.

E-tickets can of course use the NFC features in many smart phones and you can already use google /apple pay on phones at TfL barriers
 

alistairlees

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We will end up with both ITSO smartcard and eTickets, and without CCST, soon. That much is almost certain. Some people will win, some will lose. Overall the industry will be better off, as it can reduce costs and still keep customers happy. People on this forum will focus on very specific cases where passengers / customers are worse off, and will lose sight of the bigger picture.
 

Hadders

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I don't have an issue with CCST going or wide use of etickets or smartcards. What I do have an issue with is how this all gets implemented.

Take my Brookmans Park example above. This was promoted at the time as a simlification and people believe that because it's contactless the fares must be cheaper. This is not the case, especially at the weekend. I visited Brookmans Park shortly after contactless was launched to check the position and there was absolutely nothing on display advising passengers that contactless was more expensive at the weekend. This is unacceptable.

My worry is that with the rail industry and Government strapped for cash we'll see a roll out of contactless along the lines of Brookmans Park. Passengers will tap away with their contactless cards thinking they're getting a cheaper fare when in fact they could be paying up to 50% more than they have to. Meanwhile CCST tickets get abolished along with the good value fares. RDG and DfT will say this is what passengers want, simplification, old fares structure not fit for purpose, no demand for paper tickets etc.

Am I cynical about this? Yes - the rail industry does not have a good track record at implementing this sort of change. I genuinely want this change to go well but I fear it will end up with passengers paying significantly more to travel. Some might say this is a niche area that only this forum could come up with. It isn't when fare increases of as much as 50% could happen via the back door.
 

MikeWh

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the contactless limit changing from £30 to £45 on 1/4/2020 will also help that.
Actually it has no effect.

The £45 limit is on retail mode sales. TfL use the transit mode which they helped to design with the banks. There is no limit on that mode because the system is authorised. The first tap will cause a background authorisation which if successful will allow the card to be used until a certain amount has been reached, when a new authorisation is made. In the rare case where the card doesn't authorise the system will allow you to exit, but then won't work again until the problem has been resolved.

If you really want to you can travel back and forth on the Heathrow Express all day and rack up a daily charge of several hundred pounds, which will show as one transaction on your card statement.
 

philthetube

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Brighton has 4 barriers that are E ticket enabled out of about 24.
Brighton is about 17 million exit and entries it would be unusual in a London context in that has nearly as many arriving and exits during both peaks. It also only has one barrier wheras the stations you quote Waterloo and euston have many.
Take your point about underground stations and also stations like Charing Cross mainline. Its why abolishing the through tickets is the obvious answer.
If you watch the gates at Euston and the queues at busy times you would understand why there would be a problem.

I am sure they would love to have 24 gates there but there is just not the room for them.
 

Bletchleyite

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If you watch the gates at Euston and the queues at busy times you would understand why there would be a problem.

I am sure they would love to have 24 gates there but there is just not the room for them.
I don't think abolishing through tickets is necessary. Just take away the Tube element, so you pay for that, a taxi, a Sadiq cycle or your shoe leather yourself as desired. It's no longer a faff because there is no need to visit a ticket machine for it.
 

RT4038

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I don't think abolishing through tickets is necessary. Just take away the Tube element, so you pay for that, a taxi, a Sadiq cycle or your shoe leather yourself as desired. It's no longer a faff because there is no need to visit a ticket machine for it.
Apart from the tiny number of people who would wish to transfer between stations by means other than the Underground, I cannot see what the advantage is in this. I sincerely hope that you do not bemoan the lack, or abolition, of through ticketing anywhere else. I mean, with the almost universal acceptance of contactless on buses now, what is the point of plusbus?
 

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