Heathrow Connect suspended/332s withdrawn from service (running again)

[Class 170101]

How are the 180s coping? I wonder if there are being worked harder betwen London and Oxford / Worcester to release 165s.

 

[Crossforth]

Slightly off topic but relating to the post further about the boarded up 333 at Neville Hill, I gather they are having doors and mechanisms refurbished at the moment so it isn't the same 333 that has been sat there for a year, it is swapping and changing as they go through a works program.

 

[Ianigsy]

Do we know how many 333s are diagrammed per day? There are only 3 of 321s and 5 322s, and it usually needs 3 to operate the Wakefield line at some point during the day, so any withdrawal of the 333s would leave just 5 EMUs for the Aire & Wharfe unless they switched the Wakefield to DMU only operation. Either way, that would see DMU operation on these which can never cope at peak times. Fingers crossed the 332 issue isn't replicated in the 333s.....

When things have gone amiss in the past, the Leeds-Bradford FS service tends to be the first to be abandoned- you'd have to have the Leeds-Skipton trains calling additionally at Apperley Bridge now, but otherwise there aren't any stations which aren't served by other routes. Next is usually Bradford-Skipton (where the 662 bus more or less parallels the railway as far as Keighley). A 144 can't keep to 333 timings on the Ilkley line (the climb from Apperley Junction can be entertaining though!) so 158s tend to be preferred- in the past some of the morning services have been covered by units which then form mid-morning S&C departures.

 

[Bantamzen]

When things have gone amiss in the past, the Leeds-Bradford FS service tends to be the first to be abandoned- you'd have to have the Leeds-Skipton trains calling additionally at Apperley Bridge now, but otherwise there aren't any stations which aren't served by other routes. Next is usually Bradford-Skipton (where the 662 bus more or less parallels the railway as far as Keighley). A 144 can't keep to 333 timings on the Ilkley line (the climb from Apperley Junction can be entertaining though!) so 158s tend to be preferred- in the past some of the morning services have been covered by units which then form mid-morning S&C departures.

You can just about get away with these service drops outside the peaks. However in them, even losing the BDQ-LDS puts strain on the Skiptons and that's before you try to shoehorn on the Apperley Bridge passengers. And drop the Skipton - Bradford and the A650 quickly backs up because as well as the 662 scrub up, they have nothing like the capacity especially to Shipley, so inevitably people end up in their cars.

As a commuter my experience when things start to go amiss on the Aire/Wharfe triangle is that you can expect any service at any time to be subject to delay cancellation. It's probably better to run with reduced DMU capacity than to shut down certain runs as a result.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Were the 333s built as an extension/follow on build to the 332s or where they a separate build?

 

[SWT_USER]

Still no services this morning and no one has bothered to load the shuttles in to the journey planner so no idea whether they are running or not. :roll:

 

[Steve14]

Another chaotic day with the peak time in the morning on my way to Paddington. Luckily there were the normal 6 carriages on the 7.56 from Slough. However as soon as we got to Hayes, there were flocks of people waiting. Usually this isn't the case as the 7.56 runs behind a Heathrow Connect stopping service after Airport Junction. Anyway so 95% of the passengers at Hayes managed to board leaving the remaining 5% to wait for another 15 minutes. Firstly, those 15 minutes are critical to everyone commuting into London. Train then went onto Southall where the passenger numbers was even higher than Hayes. Hardly 5% of those passengers could board due to the extreme overload already which left passengers really frustrated. I must say that both Heathrow Express and GWR have handled this extremely appallingly. Correct me if i'm wrong but HeX is owned and managed by BAA (Heathrow in this case); those passengers are wanting to pay a premium for a service. Why can't HeX hire in luxury coaches which are timed atleast an hour before a HeX service is scheduled? Speaking from a business perspective; GWR must have thought that this was a golden opportunity as supplying them with 360s would mean HeX isn't causing any inconvenience to their customers. As a customer along the GWML, GWR couldn't give a hoot about the rest of their customers who pay for their services with their hard earned cash; bearing the problems with rolling stock, signalling, cancellations on a daily basis? Looks and feels to me that they sacrificed their own customers' happiness and demands to meet HeX's demands to provide their highly priced service. Granted that a crack being identified is a cause for concern but that's their problem for not inspecting their trains thoroughly, given the fact that they only operate a somewhat high speed train to Heathrow non stop; you'd their quality checks and testing would be rigorous right?

 

[Steve14]

Still no services this morning and no one has bothered to load the shuttles in to the journey planner so no idea whether they are running or not. :roll:

They've completely messed this one up. You'd think they have some sort of contingency plan ahead and prepared for a problem like this.

 

[Groningen]

No Heathrow Connect services until end of service Wednesday 2 March (from National Rail).

 

[MatthewRead]

I hope the service is still suspended on Thursday because I want to film the HC 360s on the Express duties and film Turbos stopping at Hanwell something they haven't done for nearly 2 years.

 

[SWT_USER]

I hope the service is still suspended on Thursday because I want to film the HC 360s on the Express duties and film Turbos stopping at Hanwell something they haven't done for nearly 2 years.

2 turbos a day stop at Hanwell Monday to Friday.

Currently seems to be a total lottery whether there are trains stopping or not. Degraded to an horly service each way today and FGW still not bothering to stop any extras.

 

[cjmillsnun]

When was the last time an entire class/fleet was withdrawn on safety grounds?

The one that springs to mind was the 158s when they were initially introduced being subject to an emergency withdrawal - which resulted in anything that could be pressed into service being put in service. Famously resulting in an HST substituting for a sprinter on a local service out of Edinburgh.

1992 Tube stock after Chancery Lane.

Also SWT suspended all Class 442s in 1996 due to wheel bearing problems.

 

[Busaholic]

2 turbos a day stop at Hanwell Monday to Friday.

Currently seems to be a total lottery whether there are trains stopping or not. Degraded to an horly service each way today and FGW still not bothering to stop any extras.

You need some media folk to live in Hanwell = if it had been Kentish Town, Peter Hendy would have been on the case already

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They've completely messed this one up. You'd think they have some sort of contingency plan ahead and prepared for a problem like this.

Bustitution is the only alternative, without the GW ATP (how quickly could it be installed on a given unit in an emergency?) no other classes of unit are allowed on at least the Heathrow branch, don't know if the same also applies to the GWML

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Bustitution is the only alternative, without the GW ATP (how quickly could it be installed on a given unit in an emergency?) no other classes of unit are allowed on at least the Heathrow branch, don't know if the same also applies to the GWML

GW ATP is needed for the Heathrow branch because the branch has no TPWS, it's the only safety system installed on the route. Paddington to the tunnel portal has TPWS, and can be operated (subject to paperwork) by any unit with TPWS (so almost all stock).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

GW ATP is needed for the Heathrow branch because the branch has no TPWS, it's the only safety system installed on the route. Paddington to the tunnel portal has TPWS, and can be operated (subject to paperwork) by any unit with TPWS (so almost all stock).

How many trains (apart from the terminal shuttle) are there ever on the branch at any time?

 

[JN114]

As a point of order, GWR have no say in whether HX deploy the 360s on Connect services or Express services (they're owned by Heathrow Express not GWR) - that is their call and there were representations to Heathrow Express at Executive level to try and persuade some form of compromise, to no avail.

GWRs "contribution" to the connect service "joint operation" is purely administrative. They provide HX the paths and station safety case for the intermediate stations between Heathrow and Hayes. Connect services also count towards GWR PPM. The stock, drivers, money etc all come from HX and Heathrow Airport Ltd.

There's no obligation for GWR to do sod all to help HX out. That they've done their utmost to try and run a covering service, despite ongoing fleet problems of their own and a driver dispute should be commended.

You say HX should bus people, but you're missing the point of why people pay for HeX. It's not "luxury" (the trains a far from luxurious!) it's time taken. There is no other way of getting from Heathrow to Central London in the 15 minutes HeX achieve. Even the 1980s "Air Taxi" service (helicopters) was 30.

How many trains (apart from the terminal shuttle) are there ever on the branch at any time?

2 HeX, 1 Connect and the ITT at all times between Heathrow Tunnel Jn and T4/T5

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Depending on how long the 332s are likely to be out of action for, if AGA could spare any of their 360s (probably no chance though), could the GW ATP be fitted to a few to enable a few of the HC services to run?

 

[Mikey C]

No Heathrow Connect services until end of service Wednesday 2 March (from National Rail).

I notice that the Piccadilly line is part suspended on Saturday and Sunday, they'd better have the Heathrow Connect working by then or there'll be chaos...

 

[JN114]

Depending on how long the 332s are likely to be out of action for, if AGA could spare any of their 360s (probably no chance though), could the GW ATP be fitted to a few to enable a few of the HC services to run?

Short answer, it's not practical.

Long Answer - there's a lot of "kit" for GW ATP. On-board computer, Speedo, Aerial. Oh and you need a set at each end so that's already doubled the requirement. It then needs to be programmed with the train's performance. AGA 360s are 4 car, not 5 so power/weight ratio is different and all the performance data will this need recalculating, testing and verifying.

Considering we've not needed to fit GW ATP to a train since 2007, I'd be very surprised if there were the spares to consider fitting it to anything else.

Then there's space to put all this. HX 332s and 360s werent fitted with GSM-R when the rest of the Thames Valley was done, because ATP takes up so much on-board space. I don't know the specifics but I'd bet you any money GSM-R equipment is mounted on the same racks on the 360/1s, as ATP is on the 360/2s....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Whose choice was it to only install GW ATP on the branch and not TPWS as well?

 

[JN114]

Whose choice was it to only install GW ATP on the branch and not TPWS as well?

TPWS hadn't been invented when the branch was built, whereas the plan at the time was to install ATP everywhere on the network.

As ATP provides a much higher level of safety than TPWS, and the only trains that operate on the branch are ATP fitted (and crucially the 332s are NOT TPWS fitted), why would NR waste their money on a system that wasn't needed, when there was a better system doing a better job?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

the 221/220 fleet was entirely grounded on one of the May Bank holidays in 2005 owing to an explosion in part of the door mechanism which injured a fitter at Bristol in the early hours of the morning.

I dont recall a door fault grounding the voyager fleet, although I have had a faulty door fall off its runners in Basingstoke (!) however there was a cardan shaft failure which almost led to a derailment and caused the entire fleet of voyagers to be withdrawn from service for safety checks. This also occured over a weekend (may have even been the same weekend, bank holidays look like any other weekend to rail staff!). As soon as a unit was checked and confirmed as good to go it was put back in to service straight away. I remember the TRI from Reading showing me the photos of the drive shaft remains along with the frame and body damage caused by the shafts failure as it flailed and smashed about underneath, made a right mess...

 

[RobShipway]

Is there not any class 387/1's that could be used at all as these are due at some point soon to be heading on the GWML?

 

[5920]

Is there not any class 387/1's that could be used at all as these are due at some point soon to be heading on the GWML?

No. No ATP (see above posts)

 

[Nippy]

No one on the GW signs them yet. Maybe 360s from Anglia could be used for the Hayes shuttle but let's face it, they don't have enough over there really!

Also it seems a bit unfair that GWR lose out on PPM figures because HEXs 332s are broken!

 

[5920]

It's a bit more serious than just an anti-roll bar. The first issue was the anti-roll bar mounting brackets. The bigger problem apparently is cracks underneath on supports near the centre pins where the bogies connect on a couple of vehicles. One apparently looks like a poor job all those years ago from CAF and now it's been found out.

 

[SWT_USER]

It's a bit more serious than just an anti-roll bar. The first issue was the anti-roll bar mounting brackets. The bigger problem apparently is cracks underneath on supports near the centre pins where the bogies connect on a couple of vehicles. One apparently looks like a poor job all those years ago from CAF and now it's been found out.

Doesn't sound like it's going to be a quick fix

Stuck with a pathetic hourly service and late home for a while yet then.

 

[matt_world2004]

As a point of order, GWR have no say in whether HX deploy the 360s on Connect services or Express services (they're owned by Heathrow Express not GWR) - that is their call and there were representations to Heathrow Express at Executive level to try and persuade some form of compromise, to no avail.

GWRs "contribution" to the connect service "joint operation" is purely administrative. They provide HX the paths and station safety case for the intermediate stations between Heathrow and Hayes. Connect services also count towards GWR PPM. The stock, drivers, money etc all come from HX and Heathrow Airport Ltd.

There's no obligation for GWR to do sod all to help HX out. That they've done their utmost to try and run a covering service, despite ongoing fleet problems of their own and a driver dispute should be commended.


,

You say GWR should be comended ,they are the muppets who contracted a company to provide a service without any financial penalty In failing to provide said service. That really is the height of stupidity.

 

[DarloRich]

You say GWR should be comended ,they are the muppets who contracted a company to provide a service without any financial penalty In failing to provide said service. That really is the height of stupidity.

eh? what are you talking about?