Heathrow to Dover - a few questions

[ACL]

On Friday July 9th, nine of us will be arriving at Heathrow (at 7:05) for a Baltic cruise leaving from Dover the next day on the 10th. We didn’t want to use the bus service provided by the cruise line, but instead make our own way to Dover. We will be taking the Heathrow Connect to Paddington, then cabs (too many people and luggage for the underground) to another station for travel on to Dover. I have suggested that we take Southeastern’s new High Speed service from St. Pancras (STP) to Dover (DVP).

The ship will be returning to Dover on July 22nd and we will then return to London for a couple of days of sightseeing before leaving for the US.

Since we can't accurately predict what time we will get to STP and what time we will be departing the ship and arriving at DVP, right now I am thinking we will be purchasing our tickets at STP with an anytime return on the 22nd.

My questions:

I’ve been in and out of a number of stations in London, but never STP. I understand that it is a big station, especially now that the Eurostar service is there. Is there a specific place at STP that we should tell the cab drivers to drop us off at, or is there just one taxi drop there?

Can we get some kind of discount for purchasing 9 tickets?

When does “off-peak” begin?

If we purchase “off-peak” tickets with an “off-peak” anytime return on the 22nd, and we wind up getting off the ship early and arriving at DVP well in advance of the start of “off-peak”, can we get our “off-peak” return upgraded for the marginal amount between “off-peak” and “peak”?

On the Southeastern website, they only show the trains leaving STP at 12 past the hour with no changes to DVP. Yet on the National Rail website they show these trains, as well as trains from STP to DVP at around 40 past the hour with one change. Is there some reason that Southeastern doesn’t show the trains with the changes? I did not click on the “No Train Changes” box.

And lastly, do you think I’ve selected the best way to get from Heathrow to DVP?

Thanks.

 

[LE Greys]

I’ve been in and out of a number of stations in London, but never STP. I understand that it is a big station, especially now that the Eurostar service is there. Is there a specific place at STP that we should tell the cab drivers to drop us off at, or is there just one taxi drop there?

Best place for the Southeastern service is on the east side of the station next to the King's Cross suburban platforms. The ticket office is inside the new 'glasshouse' extension, but you can also get tickets from machines on the Southeastern concourse. The Javelins leave from upstairs, platforms 11, 12 & 13, east side of the Eurostar platforms (there's a good view of Eurostar departures from platform level).

Can we get some kind of discount for purchasing 9 tickets?

According to the Southeastern website, there's a four for two offer called 'Group Save', the odd person will probably have to travel on full fare.

When does “off-peak” begin?

The website wasn't very clear about this, but I would imagine 9:30 or thereabouts.

If we purchase “off-peak” tickets with an “off-peak” anytime return on the 22nd, and we wind up getting off the ship early and arriving at DVP well in advance of the start of “off-peak”, can we get our “off-peak” return upgraded for the marginal amount between “off-peak” and “peak”?

On the Southeastern website, they only show the trains leaving STP at 12 past the hour with no changes to DVP. Yet on the National Rail website they show these trains, as well as trains from STP to DVP at around 40 past the hour with one change. Is there some reason that Southeastern doesn’t show the trains with the changes? I did not click on the “No Train Changes” box.

Probably the website just decided that there was no point displaying the second. That would mean getting the Canterbury Javelin, then changing to an ordinary train at Ashford. You might get a view of Eurostars zooming past on Ashford Viaduct, but it's not really worth it if you've got lots of luggage.

And lastly, do you think I’ve selected the best way to get from Heathrow to DVP?

You certainly have. As well as being quick, it's quite a ride. The trains accelerate like Jubilee Line stock and you get some great views over the Thames marshes and off the Medway Viaduct.

 

[John @ home]

Is there a specific place at STP that we should tell the cab drivers to drop us off at, or is there just one taxi drop there?

This map may help. The taxi will drop you off at Eurostar Taxi Drop off. They won't be allowed to drop you at the Main Entrance from Pancras Road because it's in the middle of a set of traffic lights. If it's not raining, just walk north along Pancras Road to the Main Entrance. You will have heavy luggage, so it's worth knowing that if you walk round the semi-circular stepped entrance there is step-free entrance close by, near location 24 on the map. The appropriate escalators to the upper level, marked To Kent Express on the map, are also near location 24.

Don't worry if it's raining and you have to go through the Arcade and the Market. This is one of the most spectacular railway stations in the world and is well worth a visit.

Can we get some kind of discount for purchasing 9 tickets?

Yes, you can get Groupsave. This allows 3 or 4 people to travel for the price of 2. This page shows that Groupsave can be used on the St Pancras - Dover High Speed services. For 9 people, it's best to get 2 x Groupsave 4 and one full price ticket. Groupsave is not currently available to purchase online.

Note that the £14.80 and £29.60 fares quoted on Southeastern's site are for Off-Peak Day Returns, valid one day only. You will need Off-Peak Returns, valid for return within one month. The current price is £34.60 each, reduced to £17.30 each with Groupsave 4. You can expect to spend 8 x £17.30 + £34.60 = £173. These prices may be revised from 23 May 2010.

When does “off-peak” begin?

This varies from journey to journey. An Off-Peak Return St Pancras - Dover Priory via High Speed 1 is valid "by any train except those timed to depart Mondays - Fridays before 0930".

If we purchase “off-peak” tickets with an “off-peak” anytime return on the 22nd, and we wind up getting off the ship early and arriving at DVP well in advance of the start of “off-peak”, can we get our “off-peak” return upgraded for the marginal amount between “off-peak” and “peak”?

This is normally possible, but I notice the Southeastern site states that Groupsave is available with Anytime single tickets but doesn't mention Anytime returns. That surprises me.

Is there some reason that Southeastern doesn’t show the trains with the changes?

No important reason. Different sites do have different default settings.

do you think I’ve selected the best way to get from Heathrow to DVP?

I've not yet had the chance to try the new High Speed service, and I would be keen to do so. I think you've made the right choice by going to St Pancras. But I don't think I would use Heathrow Connect and a taxi. There are direct underground trains on the Piccadilly Line every 4 - 6 minutes and the journey takes about 55 minutes. There is step-free access at both Heathrow and Kings Cross St Pancras. There is more space for large luggage items on this line than on the other underground lines in London. The trains get very busy through central London but you will already have seats. You can avoid the busiest area at Heathrow by walking away from the foot of the escalators. The journey is boring but I think I would endure it rather than taking much the same time via Paddington with the bother of a change and the cost of 3 taxis. The cash fare is GBP 4.50 per adult. It's less if you equip yourselves with oyster cards, which will be worthwhile if you're sightseeing in London later.

 

[yorkie]

Heathrow Rail - London Terminals Anytime Return £32.00
+ Singles on LU or Taxi - price will vary
London Terminals - Dover Priory Off Peak Return £34.60 (Outward and return valid After 0930) OR Anytime £57.60

Total is £66.60 providing you leave STP after 0930
But you need to get from PAD to STP

The above is cheaper than a through ticket...

Heathrow Rail - Dover Priory Off Peak Return £73.10 (Outward and return valid after 0930 )

So you are penalised for getting a through ticket. This is not uncommon in the UK, where medium to long distance passengers are ripped off compared to short distance passengers.

... but the through ticket does include travel between PAD and STP on LU both ways (which would cost £8 return if paid for in cash, but less if you faff about with Oyster) so is worth it if you are going to take the Underground from Paddington to King's Cross, and you are not going to faff about with Oyster cards. However the through ticket at that price is not valid until 0930.

So it is always better to split unless you are leaving Heathrow after 0930, and you are happy to take the Underground both ways from PAD to STP, and you are not willing to faff about with Oyster.

 

[mickey]

But I don't think I would use Heathrow Connect and a taxi. There are direct underground trains on the Piccadilly Line every 4 - 6 minutes and the journey takes about 55 minutes.

I agree. By the time you've faffed around with changing trains and carting luggage around both Heathrow and Paddington you'll find it's almost as quick getting the tube - it's much easier getting just one train (with luggage space, as mentioned above), relaxing as best you can, comfortable in the knowledge that the money you've saved will buy you lunch or a decent pint when you get off.

 

[EM2]

John@home - there is another drop-off just past the traffic lights. If you look just below point 23 on the map, you will see it says Taxis.

ACL - tell the taxi driver to drop you on Pancras Road, by The Gymnasium and NOT at the Eurostar drop-off. When you come in the entrance, there is an elevator right by the door to take you up to the platform area, and the ticket machines are right in front when you exit the elevator.

 

[ACL]

Thanks everyone for the great information, it is certainly appreciated.

That Groupsave sounds fantastic. That's a good savings.

I'm still undecided on whether to use the Heatrow Connect or the Tube. I once took the tube from Heathrow to Waterloo, but that was on my own and I was 14 years younger then. Of the nine of us, eight are over 50, with several in their 60's, and four of the group female, although we are all fairly fit and suffer no handicaps. Trying to herd all of us during rush-hour transit might be a bit tricky, but the savings would be worth it. Are there any links to see what these Picadilly Line cars with their extra luggage space look like?

I'll have to ask the group if they would like to do this.

Also, thanks for the link on the Oyster Card. We have something like that here in Washington DC and it is extremely convenient. Even if we don't take the tube from Heathrow they would still be handy for sightseeing.

Does anyone know the limit to the number of riders in a London Taxi?

Thanks again.

 

[jopsuk]

Standard london cab is five people if I recall correctly. There isn't any actual luggage space on the Picadilly line trains, but boarding at Heathrow you're at the start of the line, so with a big group and luggage you'll pretty much be able to get a "section" of a carriage to yourself. It also isn't too bad a journey- much of it is at the surface, running through west London.

here's a picture of the interior

 

[EM2]

There a few London cabs that can take six, but as jopsuk says, most (85% I'd say) take five.
If you have a lot of bags, then 3 cabs x 3 passengers might be better (but of course, more expensive).

 

[ACL]

Thanks again. That Picadilly line car looks like it would be nice if we could get our group into one end. Also, I do recall that a lot of the journey that I took to Waterloo was above ground. This will be great because for a few of our group, this is their first visit to Great Britain and I'm sure they will be anxious to see a bit after first arriving, even it it is from the window of a tube car.

 

[mickey]

Standard london cab is five people if I recall correctly. There isn't any actual luggage space on the Picadilly line trains, but boarding at Heathrow you're at the start of the line, so with a big group and luggage you'll pretty much be able to get a "section" of a carriage to yourself.

Those spaces between the doors and the seats in the picture are designated 'luggage spaces' (as per the instructions you can just about see on the orange signs above them), though of course they're usually more often used for standing passengers. Heathrow is the start of the line so it'll be pretty easy to get space and seats, and you're getting off after the busiest section. It's much easier than Waterloo as you don't have to change trains. Obviously ask the group, but my recommendation is to do it - after all, 'herding them' to the Express/Connect at Heathrow and through Paddington to a taxi rank is no different from doing it to the Underground and through StP station.

 

[jopsuk]

Out of interest ACL what airline are you travelling with/do you know which terminal you're arriving at? If you're with BA (and therefore Terminal 5) Heathrow Connect requires an additional change at Heathrow Central, as Express runs to t5 whilst Connect runs to T4- with transfer between terminals being free. At T5, the Underground platforms are adjacent to the Express platforms.

 

[John @ home]

I do recall that a lot of the journey that I took to Waterloo was above ground. This will be great because for a few of our group, this is their first visit to Great Britain and I'm sure they will be anxious to see a bit after first arriving, even it it is from the window of a tube car.

The first 6km at and near the airport is underground. Then there's 15km above ground through suburban London. Then the final 9km to Kings Cross St Pancras is under central London.

 

[ACL]

Out of interest ACL what airline are you travelling with/do you know which terminal you're arriving at? If you're with BA (and therefore Terminal 5) Heathrow Connect requires an additional change at Heathrow Central, as Express runs to t5 whilst Connect runs to T4- with transfer between terminals being free. At T5, the Underground platforms are adjacent to the Express platforms.

We are flying Virgin Atlantic and will be arriving at Terminal 3.

An additional question then. My wife will be staying for an additional 10 days to visit with our friends up in the Newcastle area. She will be flying BA between Heathrow and Newcastle, thus necessitating a transfer between Terminal 5 and Terminal 3. What is the proper "train" to catch between T5 and T3, the Heathrow Express?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

. . . . and you're getting off after the busiest section.

That's handy to know. Thanks.

 

[north]

Yes. The Heathrow Express between Terminals 1,2 & 3 and Terminal 5 is free and generally runs every 15 minutes.

The London Underground between the two stations is not free.

 

[ACL]

Thanks

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Hi
Can I ask you to give us a little baclground to this part of your plan, please?

. . . . My wife will be staying for an additional 10 days to visit with our friends up in the Newcastle area. She will be flying BA between Heathrow and Newcastle

Most people on here (maybe all of us) would have proposed rail. Its from just under 3hours from City Centre to City Centre to jsut over 3 hours, no check-in time, runs once or twice an hour, more space and facilities on-board than air.
So I'm wondering what led you to choose air?
Was it an assumption by your local agent that internal travel would normally be by air (because it is at home)?
Perhaps you assumed that rail would be slower.
Perhaps you had some discounted pricing "package" on the whole combonation of tickets.
Whatever the reasons, we clearly could improve the international perception of our rail offerings, so any insight into where we could have done better would be helpful and appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Death]

Hi. Can I ask you to give us a little background to this part of your plan, please? Most people on here (maybe all of us) would have proposed rail.

Given the size of the OP's group, I'd hazard a guess that the NCL --> LHR leg might've been thrown in as a freebie for the size of the booking, and the free flight itself might be a VSxxx codeshare on the back of a BA flight.

After all: From what I can tell on reading this thread, the OP's made the wisest decision for the group as a whole as an SEHS service is going to be a much faster and more enjoyable way of getting from London to Dover, as opposed to the coach that the cruise line would happily pick them up in for (AFAIK) no extra charge. Also, it's possible that the OP's wife prefers air travel to railways. 8)

 

[ACL]

If it were just me, or if I were traveling with my wife, I would have chosen rail, as I have many times in the past. However, trusting my luggage-encumbered wife to find her way from Kings Cross to Heathrow on her own, would be a situation that would certainly be extremely stressful for her, and also for me thinking about her (as well as almost certainly doomed to failure). She doesn't spend hours pouring over maps and train schedules, nor constantly thinking about rail travel, like I do.

Both she and I feel much better at the thought of her safely within the confines of Heathrow. Finding her way from Terminal 5 to Terminal 3 will be a daunting enough challenge.

Hi
Can I ask you to give us a little baclground to this part of your plan, please?Most people on here (maybe all of us) would have proposed rail. Its from just under 3hours from City Centre to City Centre to jsut over 3 hours, no check-in time, runs once or twice an hour, more space and facilities on-board than air.
So I'm wondering what led you to choose air?
Was it an assumption by your local agent that internal travel would normally be by air (because it is at home)?
Perhaps you assumed that rail would be slower.
Perhaps you had some discounted pricing "package" on the whole combonation of tickets.
Whatever the reasons, we clearly could improve the international perception of our rail offerings, so any insight into where we could have done better would be helpful and appreciated.

Thanks

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

. . . as opposed to the coach that the cruise line would happily pick them up in for (AFAIK) no extra charge.

No, the coach would cost us $160US each. It's just barbaric to think about being in such a wonderful place as England, entomed in a coach with other tourists. It's better to be out and about and amongst the good people. I've met many wonderful people on trains in England. It is a wonderful experience that I'm anxious for my friends to enjoy.

(Plus, I'm really looking forward to traveling on the Javelin.)

Just a question. What is "OP"?

 

[button_boxer]

OP = Original poster

 

[DaveNewcastle]

However, trusting my luggage-encumbered wife to find her way from Kings Cross to Heathrow on her own, would be a situation that would certainly be extremely stressful for her, and also for me thinking about her (as well as almost certainly doomed to failure).

Thanks for this explanation.
Some on here have recently been arguing for and against better integration between future North-South rail lines and Heathrow airport - you've added an interesting viewpoint as an international traveller.
Thanks again

 

[LondonLarry]

Groupsave is not currently available to purchase online.

It is available online, but not through the ATOS booking engine used on Southeastern's website. You can buy them through any TOC using thetrainline.com booking engine.

 

[John @ home]

It is available online, but not through the ATOS booking engine used on Southeastern's website. You can buy them through any TOC using thetrainline.com booking engine.

I'm unable to get thetrainline.com or its clones to offer me Groupsave. For example, choosing 4 adults on 21 April from East Croydon to Chichester return, both thetrainline.com and East Midlands Trains quote me £85.60 for CDRs and £90 for SVRs. Groupsave would be half those prices.

 

[Deerfold]

No, the coach would cost us $160US each. It's just barbaric to think about being in such a wonderful place as England, entomed in a coach with other tourists. It's better to be out and about and amongst the good people. I've met many wonderful people on trains in England. It is a wonderful experience that I'm anxious for my friends to enjoy.

$160? Now, that's outrageous. National Express, the biggest coach company over here charge £23 return for their refundable, amendable ticket London - Dover and start at £12 for advance coach-specific ones. I appreciate the one you've been offered might be more luxurious, but NX aren't bad (though this does compare badly with groupsave on the train).

 

[clagmonster]

If booking groupsave tickets via a Trainline based website, you need to add the groupsave as if it were a railcard. This has worked for me in the past. www.tpexpress.co.uk would do the trick if you wish to buy online, however I doubt they would post tickets to America for free and as there is no financial saving in buying online, I would advise buying the tickets at the St Pancras booking hall.

 

[ACL]

$160? Now, that's outrageous. National Express, the biggest coach company over here charge £23 return for their refundable, amendable ticket London - Dover and start at £12 for advance coach-specific ones. I appreciate the one you've been offered might be more luxurious, but NX aren't bad (though this does compare badly with groupsave on the train).

I had looked into National Express Bus service, but it seemed to take a long time as I recall, with a change at Victoria Bus station in London. Also, I thought that we would have to book seats on a specific bus to ensure that seats were available for us when we arrived, and that can be a tricky thing if a flight is delayed or someones luggage is not found promptly. (Had that happen the first time I took the Eurostar, luckily I had booked a ticket good for any train that day.)

Also, after the flight, I just figured that everyone would prefer the comfort and speed of train service. Also, I'd get to ride the Javelin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If booking groupsave tickets via a Trainline based website, you need to add the groupsave as if it were a railcard. This has worked for me in the past. www.tpexpress.co.uk would do the trick if you wish to buy online, however I doubt they would post tickets to America for free and as there is no financial saving in buying online, I would advise buying the tickets at the St Pancras booking hall.

I'm thinking that we will just buy them at St. Pancras. The big thing will be the time we arrive, whether we are so early that the trains are still running "peak" fares. I'll have to calculate the Peak and Off Peak costs and if we get to STP early, I'll just have to see if they want to pay the Peak fares or wait around for a little while for the "Off Peak" to begin. I imagine it will come down to "how much it is" and "how long we have to wait". Hey, if nothing else, I can watch the luggage and they can get a little taste of London until "Off Peak" begins.

 

[John @ home]

If booking groupsave tickets via a Trainline based website, you need to add the groupsave as if it were a railcard.

Thanks for that. I now see that it works.

 

[Death]

$160? Now, that's outrageous [...] I appreciate the one you've been offered might be more luxurious, but NX aren't bad.

$160, £12/23 or no, I'd still choose the 395...Even during the peak with suppliments on top!

(Sorry...But in my case, the choice between coach and HSR is plainly obvious... )

 

[mickey]

If it were just me, or if I were traveling with my wife, I would have chosen rail, as I have many times in the past. However, trusting my luggage-encumbered wife to find her way from Kings Cross to Heathrow on her own, would be a situation that would certainly be extremely stressful for her, and also for me thinking about her (as well as almost certainly doomed to failure).

Interestingly enough the connection from King's Cross to Heathrow is exactly the same one as you're considering to get from the airport - King's Cross and St Pancras share an Underground station so in effect it would be a single train journey, just as she'll have to do at Heathrow! But you weren't to know, so I hope for your and her sakes that everything runs smoothly.

P.S. She could try asking BA at Newcastle check-in to treat her as a through passenger. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - but effectively it would mean her luggage could be through-checked and she would be entitled to use the airside connection bus between terminals at Heathrow. Just a thought, of course.

 

[ACL]

Interestingly enough the connection from King's Cross to Heathrow is exactly the same one as you're considering to get from the airport - King's Cross and St Pancras share an Underground station so in effect it would be a single train journey, just as she'll have to do at Heathrow! But you weren't to know, so I hope for your and her sakes that everything runs smoothly.

My lovely wife has many wonderful qualities, but finding her way around on her own just isn't one of them. Although she's lived here in the Washington DC area all of her life, whenever she happens to drive around the area on her own, it often results in calling me on the mobile phone to find out where she's at and where she needs to go. And to my knowledge, she's never taken the Washington Metro on her own.

The thought of her on her own to find her way on the tube is petrifying to her and also me. (Although, she would be safer in London and find more kind people to help her than probably anywhere else in the world). At least taking the Heathow Express only one stop will be somewhat similar to taking an airport subway train between terminals.

And thanks for the good wishes.

P.S. She could try asking BA at Newcastle check-in to treat her as a through passenger. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - but effectively it would mean her luggage could be through-checked and she would be entitled to use the airside connection bus between terminals at Heathrow. Just a thought, of course.

Thanks. I will check into that. I just assumed that because she was "mixing" airlines (BA & VA) that they wouldn't do that. At least I've got plenty of time to find out. That would be a good way to do it.