Heritage Rail Train Driver?

[30mog]

Would love to be /have been a train driver. I left school at 16 in 1983, when the railway system was at it's lowest ebb. The career prospects for even a cleaner on BR didn't look good. By the end of the 1980's, I end endured a mix period of unemployment and dead end jobs. A friend found his way to Brighton to work for the then NSE on station duties. It was a time when generally speaking, in the southern half of the country any organisation paying not so good wages was always recruiting. So I applied. However, I was also alerted to the chance of being a postal worker in the Cambridge area. Brighton was a long, long way from my native South Yorkshire. So the latter application was dropped. And as a result of the former, I still work for Royal Mail having eventually got transferred home. In the meantime. I have made several attempts to join the railway industry with the ambition of being a driver if not directly applying to be one. None got past the paper sifting stage.

In all honesty. I could only see myself being a driver. I am very shy. I would soon panic in a people facing role, but do the right for the safety of hundreds of people who can't see me. More lately however. A medical condition has come to light and I suspect they would fail me for driving as soon as they found out.

So can anyone give me a few tips? Would an heritage railway be more accommodating to me? Any ideas which one? I am of course willing to do it for free as you have to on heritage railways.

Thanks in advance of your tips.

 

[Beveridges]

In all honesty. I could only see myself being a driver. I am very shy. I would soon panic in a people facing role, but do the right for the safety of hundreds of people who can't see me. More lately however. A medical condition has come to light and I suspect they would fail me for driving as soon as they found out.

I am not a so-called 'people person' at all - yet I found that I have had more panic caused by 'some' of the more difficult colleages to work with, than customers, when I used to work in public facing roles. So you may be overestimating what it is going to be like.

I now work at a Maintenance Depot as I have no doubt mentioned many times. The best place to go to avoid the general public altogether. Have you considered this as the ultimate type of role to go for? Theres lots of jobs from Fitters (both skilled and semi-skilled where no previous engineering qualifications are required), Maintenance Depot Drivers and also Cleaners where opportunities to progress to other roles within the same maintenance depot are readily available.

Although if you say you are almost certain to fail a medical it may unfortunately leave very little choice outside of cleaning or the heritage scene ad:

[So can anyone give me a few tips? Would an heritage railway be more accommodating to me? Any ideas which one? I am of course willing to do it for free as you have to on heritage railways.

Going off my experience with the East Lancs it was less accomodating than the real railway. I joined back in 2007 and all they did was give me the most dirty, boring, hard jobs available. They ranged from sanding cyclinders off a "Peak" locomotive engine, sanding away for hours seeing little progress was soul destroying. They had me jet washing engine parts, getting covered in oil, and again, it took literally hours to see even the slightest bit of progress.
Other jobs included cleaning up crap in filthy rooms and workshops, removing rust by sand paper, basically the worst jobs that no one wanted to do.

Even a job cleaning the bodyshell of a Deltic with a brush they didn't want me doing as they must have deemed that job "too pleasurable" for a newbie to get stuck into. I got the worst of the worst jobs at the east lancs.

There was also loads of boring standing/sitting around doing nothing between jobs.

It is really not a good way of making someone want to come back. Yet I came back 7 times to see if things would get better. They didn't.

They also had me doing a really boring 'useless' job - just simply watching the oil slowly drain from a diesel-powered crane and informing them when it was nearly full. My job was to watch the bucket filling up with oil. After watching the bucket for hours on end, slowly filling up with oil, it was getting nearly full, I thought "finally, this is where my role comes in!". Just as I was about to go and inform him that it was nearly full, he turned up anyway!!!

What a waste of two hours! Really exciting work.

Some of the more experienced staff made me feel unwelcome, like "what the f**k are you doing here"

Months later I got a job on the real railway and had no need to come back to the preserved scene.

Oh yes and your lucky if they let you do bodyside cleaning as a new starter... To actually get to drive a train, I was told expect to show total comittment for over 10 years before they decide to let me do that!

Of cause, ELR will be more accomodating if I turned up with £200+ on a "Drive a Diesel" Day. But even that is just driving a train under total instruction, robot-fashion. No comparison with doing it on your own.

I would imagine other preserved railways have the same policy. Work from the very bottom, with very slow progress, with driving being one of the last things they will allow you to do after a decade of unpaid graft.

No comparison between volunteering and working on the real railway. Thats without even saying that one pays a salary of £0.00 minus your own expenses and the other can pay £50,000+ with a range of other benefits.

Some of the other forum members experience will no doubt differ.

 

[30mog]

The probable medical slide is Sleep Apnea. DVLA are informed but I still have a car license. I am vulnerable on a long run on the motorway. But the very good news is I am alert to the warning signs and always stop when necessary. For example, if this minute I set off from Sheffield to Glasgow I might get their non-stop. On the other hand, I might be feeling a bit drowsy by Wetherby services and have to stop for a quick coffee.

Is it therefore safe to assume that unless I am dishonest a train driver recruitment programme are going to say 'goodbye' to me very quickly? My own view is I would be safe on a many stops route, say London Underground or Merseyrail, but I reckon they would be equally unimpressed?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I already do a bit of volunteering for a transport, but not railway, related heritage site. The people there are OK, but. I as a member, approached them a few years ago with an idea for a role they were lacking. And volunteered to do it. I was welcomed and did it. But have to push myself to turn up more lately because there are obvious signs of nepotism & cronyism among senior members so set in their ways they possibly don't realise it.

 

[TDK]

The probable medical slide is Sleep Apnea. DVLA are informed but I still have a car license. I am vulnerable on a long run on the motorway. But the very good news is I am alert to the warning signs and always stop when necessary. For example, if this minute I set off from Sheffield to Glasgow I might get their non-stop. On the other hand, I might be feeling a bit drowsy by Wetherby services and have to stop for a quick coffee.

Is it therefore safe to assume that unless I am dishonest a train driver recruitment programme are going to say 'goodbye' to me very quickly? My own view is I would be safe on a many stops route, say London Underground or Merseyrail, but I reckon they would be equally unimpressed?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I already do a bit of volunteering for a transport, but not railway, related heritage site. The people there are OK, but. I as a member, approached them a few years ago with an idea for a role they were lacking. And volunteered to do it. I was welcomed and did it. But have to push myself to turn up more lately because there are obvious signs of nepotism & cronyism among senior members so set in their ways they possibly don't realise it.

If you have sleep apnea you will never pass the medical for train driver and to be honest if you lie you will putting lives at risk. You described yourself as shy and panic at certain things, to me you are not train driver material I am afraid and I would not apply on the grounds of your medical condition alone.

Nepotism is at nearly every workplace in one way or another.

Back to your condition, you cannot just stop a train anywhere if you are tired for a coffee and you cannot compare driving a car to a train.

 

[Jonfun]

Going off my experience with the East Lancs it was less accomodating than the real railway. I joined back in 2007 and all they did was give me the most dirty, boring, hard jobs available. They ranged from sanding cyclinders off a "Peak" locomotive engine, sanding away for hours seeing little progress was soul destroying. They had me jet washing engine parts, getting covered in oil, and again, it took literally hours to see even the slightest bit of progress.

Speaking as someone who's been involved with a few places, I think that's railway preservation anywhere really - I share your view that any department which makes you do non-jobs for x years without looking at the potential of the person is one that's best to say 'thanks, but no thanks' to. Speaking East Lancs wise, that doesn't really surprise me, although the customer-facing departments are a hell of a lot more friendly to new blood. I joined with the ambition of being a Signalman or repairing/restoring vehicles in Carriage and Wagon. There's a reason I've ended up a Guard... :roll:

I appreciate that isn't much help to the OP though - Obviously I don't know exactly work situation is/has been, but maybe volunteer in something customer facing to build up your confidence and lose the self-confessed shyness? I know of people who've come into heritage railways (although I'm certain the same would apply to other voluntary stuff, local hospital friends' cafe etc?) who were the most shy people you'd know and it's really given them a confidence boost - myself included, probably!

 

[RPM]

If you have sleep apnea you will never pass the medical for train driver and to be honest if you lie you will putting lives at risk. You described yourself as shy and panic at certain things, to me you are not train driver material I am afraid and I would not apply on the grounds of your medical condition alone.

Nepotism is at nearly every workplace in one way or another.

Back to your condition, you cannot just stop a train anywhere if you are tired for a coffee and you cannot compare driving a car to a train.

Plenty of drivers suffer from sleep apnea, myself included. We are not putting lives at danger and don't require to stop our trains for cups of coffee! As long as the condition is treated and monitored it will not end a driver's career.

However, I suspect it would make it difficult as a new entrant, not because it is an insurmountable problem in itself, but because vacancies for trainee drivers positions are always massively oversubscribed and a medical condition is an easy and obvious way of sifting people out.

What you absolutely can't do though is cover up the condition on applying for the job and then pretend it is a new condition after you have qualified. That would be hugely irresponsible and possibly even criminal.

As an aside to the OP, from what you have said, it seems you are not receiving any treatment for the sleep apnea? I strongly reccommend you see your GP and ask for a referral to a Sleep Unit. Sleep apnea can be very successfully treated by using a CPAP machine at night. It can really turn your life around.

 

[30mog]

I would not lie. At least I am potentially saving lives by not doing so in this case. And take pride in that.

I have been trialled on a CPAP machine. It did it's job but I refused it on a permanent basis because of the noise.

On the railway. I genuinely fear for those who check tickets. And to some extent even those who just sell them at the station. We saw a scene on BBC recently. An unsuspecting traveller needs to get from London to Newcastle urgently, and is told because its Friday afternoon it's going to cost him £301 return! Similarly, someone with an advance purchase ticket for Newcastle could board the wrong train accidentally at King's Cross and off it goes. Somewhere around Stevenage they are told they now have to cough up a substantial sum for another ticket if they want to return to Newcastle on that train. Now correct me if I am wrong but. It would only take one particularly angry passenger who at this point uses a knife or even gun on their possession against the individual who was only doing his/her job?

The driver however. Locks him/herself in a cab. Operates strictly to given instructions. And I would argue being shy does not dampen the ability of that individual to deal with an emergency, appropriate training given. To quote a London tube driver in another documentary I have seen, "any idiot can pull the levers that move train, it's what to do if an emergency kicks off." I know, I am shy but have done the right thing a few times I have come across an emergency in my time. There is a catch for the train driver though - they only get paid TWICE as much as anyone else needed to operate the train. Isn't the conductor/guard who assumes overall responsibility for the train?

 

[CatfordCat]

A couple of thoughts. I'm not all that active in railway preservation, so can't answer authoritatively for any preserved railway but...

Firstly, heritage railways in the UK do have to answer to the railway inspectorate (or whatever it's called this week) and they will have medical / eye-sight standards for potential drivers.

All I can suggest is making contact with one or two and finding out what their criteria are.

Also, any voluntary organisation (and that includes things away from heritage railways) where there's a role that requires a lot of training will not generally have people starting straight into that role, and will want to establish a volunteer's long term commitment to the organisation before investing resources in training them for a role - they don't want that volunteer to get trained then leave.

I would have thought that most heritage railways' loco departments would have a 'career ladder' similar to the old railway structure, where you start on cleaning / shed duties, then fireman, then driver, with there being some 'length of experience' criteria and some competency based criteria.

There are ways and ways of applying this, and some voluntary organisations are more welcoming to newcomers than others (I've experienced some where you're pretty much not expected to speak unless you've been involved 10 years, and some where I've been asked to go on the committee after a couple of weeks)

But the fact remains that maintenance of heavy machinery such as steam locomotives is going to involve some essential tasks that are frankly kinda crappy.

Unless a railway is sufficiently well resourced to have paid staff to do that sort of thing, some volunteers are going to have to do them. Some people approach volunteering with a view that "someone else" should have to do all that sort of stuff...

 

[30mog]

Nepotism is at nearly every workplace in one way or another.

Back to your condition, you cannot just stop a train anywhere if you are tired for a coffee and you cannot compare driving a car to a train.

I know

 

[notadriver]

I'm seriously thinking of volunteering my time on a heritage railway. I don't necessarily want to drive; that's my day job. I'd be happy in a customer facing role but you mentioned a job someone else should do - that's precisely it in that I don't want to do the really crappy cleaning jobs and getting myself dirty. I want to enjoy my spare time. Is that so wrong?

 

[Beveridges]

Unless a railway is sufficiently well resourced to have paid staff to do that sort of thing, some volunteers are going to have to do them. Some people approach volunteering with a view that "someone else" should have to do all that sort of stuff...

Yes. To become a heritage driver you get the worst of the worst jobs at first.
Then after a while you get jobs which are still undesirable but are a bit better.
Thats the impression I got from looking at what the other volunteers were doing on the east lancs.
It does not matter what grade you are in on the real railway either, unless your role somehow gives you heritage traction experience, which would no doubt lift you up the ladder.
But if like me, plenty of experience but with more modern traction, on the east lancs you start at the very bottom.
Someone said to me on my first day "You should look at volunteering as what you can give, not what you can take".
He was damn right.
He also said don't turn up here expecting to one day become a heritage driver, as that day will never come. Not until you've spent an elephantine length of time doing unpaid graft.
It's not like a job at all.

 

[CatfordCat]

in my view, volunteering is in part about doing something you enjoy, but it's also about doing something that benefits the organisation you're volunteering for.

I don't think that it's entirely constructive or realistic to go into volunteering with the approach either that you're only there to have fun and that other volunteers can do the stuff you don't want to; or that you're somehow a cut above existing volunteers and shouldn't have to do the less glamorous stuff...

 

[Beveridges]

Volunteering wouldn't be too bad if new starters could take the rough with the smooth. But taking the "rough with the rough" just turns newcommers alway, especially when theres no pay and its costing you money through your own expenses.

The ones who have "roughed it out" and worked their way up, I don't know how they motivated themselves to keep turning up during the first few years.

I'm sure not all preserved railways and departments are this way, but some are. My advice is get a job on the real railway, I'd rather even be a depot carriage cleaner than go back there.

 

[FGW_DID]

Plenty of drivers suffer from sleep apnea, myself included. We are not putting lives at danger and don't require to stop our trains for cups of coffee! As long as the condition is treated and monitored it will not end a driver's career.

However, I suspect it would make it difficult as a new entrant, not because it is an insurmountable problem in itself, but because vacancies for trainee drivers positions are always massively oversubscribed and a medical condition is an easy and obvious way of sifting people out.

What you absolutely can't do though is cover up the condition on applying for the job and then pretend it is a new condition after you have qualified. That would be hugely irresponsible and possibly even criminal.

As an aside to the OP, from what you have said, it seems you are not receiving any treatment for the sleep apnea? I strongly reccommend you see your GP and ask for a referral to a Sleep Unit. Sleep apnea can be very successfully treated by using a CPAP machine at night. It can really turn your life around.

I concur with RPM, I was passed fit for Depot Driving with no restrictions however there was a restriction on main line driving, doesn't matter because I'll never go near the main line!

As for the CPAP, I agree it can really turn your life around, I'm surprised about the noise, mine is very quiet indeed. The missus is also chuffed with it as I no longer snore like a warthog so we both get a good nights sleep.

It does take some getting used to but do try and persevere, the fact I was using the machine swung the medical in my favour.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Took me 4 years to work my way up through my department at a heritage railway. If you want to do something you have to do the jobs in between, and do them well. That's life IMO.

 

[bronzeonion]

Shocked to hear what goes on at the ELR! I volunteer at the Epping Ongar Railway doing all kinds of random things I'm asked to do or I offer to do myself. Mainly Carriage & Wagon but sometimes help out with other things and on running days I am a Travelling Ticket Inspector or Porter. I wouldn't say I got the bad jobs but I just didnt't get many jobs to do because nobody knew me but once I got to know people I was up and running in no time!

You'll be welcomed at the Epping Ongar Railway anytime.

 

[Beveridges]

I don't wish to put anyone off.
Just saying its not exactly a barrel of fun.
give it a go and try different departments. Experiences may differ.
But unpaid hard graft for 10 years just to get on the footplate of a 37?
Not worth it for me!

 

[shedman]

I'm not surprised how some heritage railways treat "new starters". I was once at the MRC chatting away to the guard until I mentioned I worked on the real railway... He stopped dead the conversation and walked off! Needless to say I've not been back there since! I just got the impression I was in the way of them playing trains when really I was just there to ride the class 141!

 

[Yew]

I'm also considering voulenteering on some heritage outfit. However I'm wondering how these things usually work? Do you usually shadow someone around and work with them, or can it be 'here, do this. now do this 1000 more times while I go and do something interesting.'

 

[Simon11]

On the talyllyn railway, there are the loco and traffic departments.

With loco, you begin as a cleaner, before getting passed out as passed cleaner, fireman, passed fireman before driver. It takes around 10 years, but it does depend more on getting on well with your crew rather than promotion based on a marking sheet. Sure cleaners have a few mucky jobs, but its a great way to learn about the locos and don't worry, the fireman and driver all pitch in. The reward for every turn, is a third man trip up the line!

If your rather a people person and not one for getting mucky, you can join the traffic department. This includes roles such as guard, blockmen, booking clerk and controller. What is great is that promotion is based on your skills and experience in the role. Until you are passed out, you will be working with someone to gain experience. For me it's taken around 2-3 years to become a guard by myself, visiting a few times every year.

While the railway is located away from england, there is a hostel at the main station, so it is very easy to visit and volunteer for a weekend/ week for a low cost holiday. Great scenery, a good laugh where everyone chats together and lots of steam!

 

[dave_wm]

I volunteer on the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways, and our loco crews and operations staff are fairly separate (being based either side of the Cob would be part of the reason!).

I'm a trainee guard for the operations department - I've gone straight into that from being a buffet steward (we don't have TTIs), so I shadow a qualified guard each day until I am deemed capable enough to be examined - the idea being you begin by shadowing a qualified guard, and by the end they're shadowing you(!), then fingers crossed I'll be passed out. How long it takes apparently really does depend on the person - the shortest I've heard of is someone passing out in 3 weeks, but I think they had previous railway experience, whilst for others it can take a year or two of semi-regular visits.

Each guard has to work either 15 (if qualified on only the Ffestiniog or the Welsh Highland) or 20 (if qualified on both) days per year to remain qualified, and then can also train as a signalman or controller. And like the Talyllyn there's a subsidised hostel at Minffordd for cheap holidays and the like!

The loco department is structured similarly to most other places I believe, though I'm not entirely sure - but there do seem to be some pretty young faces on the footplate (firemen still at university, drivers in their 20s etc).

 

[RPM]

As for the CPAP, I agree it can really turn your life around, I'm surprised about the noise, mine is very quiet indeed. The missus is also chuffed with it as I no longer snore like a warthog so we both get a good nights sleep.

Mrs RPM appreciates my CPAP for exactly the same reason

 

[507 001]

I volunteer on the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways, and our loco crews and operations staff are fairly separate (being based either side of the Cob would be part of the reason!).

I'm a trainee guard for the operations department - I've gone straight into that from being a buffet steward (we don't have TTIs), so I shadow a qualified guard each day until I am deemed capable enough to be examined - the idea being you begin by shadowing a qualified guard, and by the end they're shadowing you(!), then fingers crossed I'll be passed out. How long it takes apparently really does depend on the person - the shortest I've heard of is someone passing out in 3 weeks, but I think they had previous railway experience, whilst for others it can take a year or two of semi-regular visits.

Each guard has to work either 15 (if qualified on only the Ffestiniog or the Welsh Highland) or 20 (if qualified on both) days per year to remain qualified, and then can also train as a signalman or controller. And like the Talyllyn there's a subsidised hostel at Minffordd for cheap holidays and the like!

The loco department is structured similarly to most other places I believe, though I'm not entirely sure - but there do seem to be some pretty young faces on the footplate (firemen still at university, drivers in their 20s etc).

Ah you beat me to it!

Are you training on both sides? I'm qualified on the dark side, took me about a year and a half of semi-regular visits (I.e. every 2-3 weekends), although I was told I'd have probably passed out earlier if control had hurried up with my test

 

[dave_wm]

Ah you beat me to it!

Are you training on both sides? I'm qualified on the dark side, took me about a year and a half of semi-regular visits (I.e. every 2-3 weekends), although I was told I'd have probably passed out earlier if control had hurried up with my test

I am indeed Though I seem to get given more days on the Ffestiniog than the Welsh Highland whenever I go up there!

I'm doing it slightly differently (it helps being on a gap year before university!), going up for 1-2 weeks at a time every month or so, I've only been doing it since late last year though so I'm probably still quite a way off from being passed out...

 

[507 001]

I am indeed Though I seem to get given more days on the Ffestiniog than the Welsh Highland whenever I go up there!

I'm doing it slightly differently (it helps being on a gap year before university!), going up for 1-2 weeks at a time every month or so, I've only been doing it since late last year though so I'm probably still quite a way off from being passed out...

Well I'll probably see you around at some point then! Control will generally oblige any requests for particular turns, so if you feel you need to balance it out a bit, just ask!

Its about time somebody else passed out, I've been the newbie for far too long!

 

[30mog]

The author of this thread would like to say many thanks to all who have provided information that from a personal point of view is useful. I was only told some things I already strongly suspected about train driving. More positively, I am going to get myself referred back to the hospital about CPAP. As for the pleasures and benefits of being a train driver. I reckon the nearest I could get is marrying one!

I will not post here again. But I would like to refer people to 2g-Rail. I am changing my user ID to that if possible. And is the name of an interest group I am trying to build from scratch. It is for anyone with an interest in the long term aim of preserving passenger trains that won't actually be offered for preservation for many years yet, and are also not covered by existing groups. Thus, the general scope is classes 165-222. Entries maintained by myself already exist on social networks Facebook & Flickr. With support I will develop them to enjoyable resources.

Another ID that may be attributable to me is 142066. I recently joined The Pacer Preservation Society and it's my number. Yes, Pacers are the 's***boxes' of the network but are an important chapter in the story of railways in Britain. And as they are most likely in need of replacement by 2019 - preservation of them does need help now. Any Pacer activities I get involved in will be learned from and will influence the course of 2g-Rail. I also intend to make promoting railway preservation to the next generation part of the 2g-Rail ethos.

 

[Jonfun]

Took me 4 years to work my way up through my department at a heritage railway. If you want to do something you have to do the jobs in between, and do them well. That's life IMO.

It might be life, but it isn't really a sensible way to recruit people who are doing what they do for nothing, apart from any experience or whatever they might gain. Yeah, I wouldn't mind driving on my heritage line, but I don't have time to waste doing things that don't interest me for a few years to get there. I'd quite like to be a signalman, but I've had it on good authority that you won't even touch a block bell for at least two years whether you were a new entrant or someone who worked Shrewsbury box for a decade. So I didn't, despite there regularly being whinges about not having enough volunteers.

I maintain, from experience, if you're looking for something enjoyable to do on a heritage railway - whether that's the Ffestiniog, East Lancs, or any that have come up here - and you're not the sort of person who's prepared to sit around cleaning oil buckets for years in the hope you might become a driver then a customer facing role is the best to be in. If you haven't got any, it's a great way of building customer service experience, and provided you have a brain and some semblance of social skills (and are prepared to put the time in) it won't be difficult to train as a Ticket Inspector, Booking Clerk or Guard. Okay, it's probably not as novel as driving a train but in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have a wander through the train and let the young 'uns have a wave of the green flag or clip their own tickets etc, have a chat to the families who want to know a bit about the line's history or how the engine works, or just have some time to build up a friendship with colleagues (and indeed the regular visitors), many of whom have been doing it either heritage or as a job for longer than I've been alive. And it's the customer facing side of the place that keeps the thing running, both money coming in from people enjoying themselves and coming back, or telling their friends, or gaining new volunteers - two of the earliest memories I have as a kid were how friendly railway staff came across, one lady ticket inspector on the Keighley and Worth making my day by letting me clip my own ticket (I was young ), and on the mainline a Virgin TM who had a bit of a chat to me as he came round doing tickets then went and brought me one of their 'Kidz' bags from the buffet. I think its fair to say that if it wasn't for the human side of railways I probably wouldn't have got interested in them at all!

Plus, if you stick at a job on the cutomer facing side and the higher ups in the 'difficult departments' see you're committed and have the right attitude then you might find they're less likely to dump you in the rubbish stuff if you wanted to join their department.

I appreciate we've sort of diverted off-topic for the OP, but some of the responses regarding different railways and training volunteers has brought some quite interesting points up

Jon

 

[TDK]

I'm also considering voulenteering on some heritage outfit. However I'm wondering how these things usually work? Do you usually shadow someone around and work with them, or can it be 'here, do this. now do this 1000 more times while I go and do something interesting.'

Why volunteer when you have DRS where 80% of all the drivers there are enthusiasts and get over 40k a year from driving worn out traction

 

[Beveridges]

Plus DRS don't make you do about 10 years worth of unpaid cleaning before they let you on the footplate of a 37

 

[455driver]

I was just there to ride the class 141!

And you admit it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hock: hock: hock:












Actually I quite like 141s as well!