High levels of pollution onboard diesel trains

[Mikey C]

Last week I made two overnight trips in Thailand, travelling in air-conditioned sleepers built by Daewoo in 1996. Although they are loco-hauled, these coaches each have an underframe-mounted diesel engine providing air-con and electric power, and they seemed very prone to sucking in fumes when stationary. At one stage we were waiting at the Thai - Malaysia border for around two hours (awaiting a Thai loco to continue north), and the diesel fumes became really unpleasant on board. Fortunately the problem disappeared when we were were moving. So it's not just a UK problem, or even just a DMU problem.

That would explain why I didn't sleep very well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having the lights on all the time is why I didn't. Oh, and trying to track down a friend who I thought had said he was going to be on a flight that had crashed. Fortunately it was a different flight to the same destination.

 

[BestWestern]

It always seemed quite common, probably still is, for 15x to emit fumes from the underframe area rather than just the exhaust pipes. Was never quite sure why (leaky exhausts?) but those did tend to go in through the open windows and doors.

Class 15X are fitted with an 'auxiliary heater', which is what emits the fumes from solebar level.

 

[TDK]

I wonder if anyone has thought of having all the diesel engines in a train in one vehicle - which could be called a "locomotive" - instead of distributed throughout the train.....

That is a spotters point of view
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And rightly so. Fortunately, rail has a solution, electrification, not immediately available to its competitors.

That depends on how the electricity is generated. The highest single pollutants are power stations

 

[Envoy]

Are drivers able to shut down the ventilation systems prior to entering tunnels? (On modern cars, when in heavy traffic, you can press a button for internal air circulation in order to block out sucking in fumes).

I notice fumes when travelling through the Severn Tunnel. Perhaps all services between Bristol TM/Bath and Cardiff/Swansea should be EMU's?

Residents living next to rail lines also have to put up with the fumes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 15X are fitted with an 'auxiliary heater', which is what emits the fumes from solebar level.

Cheers, I always wondered what the cause of that was.
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Residents living next to rail lines also have to put up with the fumes.

Not half as bad as living next to a main road. Both would have been there (in almost all cases) when you bought the house, so if it's important to you choose somewhere else

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Are drivers able to shut down the ventilation systems prior to entering tunnels?.

I don't think so unless it's changed since the 158s were introduced:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2479425&postcount=48

Many years ago when 158s were brand new, myself and another forum member tried them out on the Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttle, their first route. On the way into Queen Street, the train got held in the tunnel and the carriages completely filled with a cloud of pale blue looking diesel exhaust so thick that we could taste it and it nearly hid the far end of the carriage from view. Literally; it really was that thick.

We complained in writing about that and suggested that when held in a tunnel the air conditioning should be temporarily switched off to prevent exhaust ingress.

They clearly didn't read the complaint properly because the reply came back that it they would not do this "...because the air conditioning is essential to provide a clean and healthy environment inside the train..."

 

[najaB]

Be thankful we aren't in India:
[youtube]nwa8jP9fa1Y[/youtube]

 

[All Line Rover]

It always seemed quite common, probably still is, for 15x to emit fumes from the underframe area rather than just the exhaust pipes. Was never quite sure why (leaky exhausts?) but those did tend to go in through the open doors and windows.

But my prize for worst (worst everything, really, Pacers aside) is the Class 166, which just stinks of fumes all the time.

I think that depends which 15x's you are referring to. I don't find 166's that bad. 158's are better, but 150's and 153's are so bad as to be nauseating. Any longer than 10 minutes on a 150 or 153 and I want off.

Someone should suggest to this BBC journalist to test all of the above, which, unlike Pacers, have no realistic prospect of replacement in the short to medium term.

 

[furnessvale]

That is a spotters point of view
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That depends on how the electricity is generated. The highest single pollutants are power stations

Electric powered rail has two other advantages.

Regen can put up to 20% of the electricity back into the wire to be used again.

Electricity can be generated by nuclear, hydro, wave and wind power, biomass as well as dirty coal or oil. Even then, it is much easier to control pollution at one central source than at a multiple of end users.

 

[Mikey C]

Electric powered rail has two other advantages.

Regen can put up to 20% of the electricity back into the wire to be used again.

Electricity can be generated by nuclear, hydro, wave and wind power, biomass as well as dirty coal or oil. Even then, it is much easier to control pollution at one central source than at a multiple of end users.

And power stations aren't in the middle of cities where people live!

 

[jopsuk]

That is a spotters point of view

Not only that, but a spotter that hadn't read the article properly and therefore missed that the trains the measurements were taken on don't have underfloor engines...

 

[Greybeard33]

I'd like to see some further study. For example how much pollution is background pollution and how much is from the train itself. So measure the same unit at say BHM or GLQ and again after its had a run out on the Cambrian or Highland Main Line, where the air would be cleaner.

The reporter did make measurements on an electric train between Bedford and St Pancras and got a reading 70% lower than in the diesels on the same line.
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Not only that, but a spotter that hadn't read the article properly and therefore missed that the trains the measurements were taken on don't have underfloor engines...

Meridians don't have underfloor engines?!

 

[AM9]

That is a spotters point of view
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That depends on how the electricity is generated. The highest single pollutants are power stations

What does that mean? It would be no surprise if just one of Fawley's 500MW generator chains had higher pollution than the highest output current diesel train, - most seem to top out at 3-4000 hp.
So any comparative statement is only relevant if expressed in CO2, CO, NOx, etc., per kW at the wheel.
Add to that the lower incidence of local ground level pollution at power stations, then the relative health risk can be expressed with credibility.

 

[kieron]

The article is the kind of thing journalists love doing - "here is a problem, oh dear, it's really worrying..." - and some people do start to worry. But while they told us where the readings were higher, what they didn't do was to relate those levels to what might be dangerous, and what doesn't greatly matter.

The HSE has some guidance on this issue. It says that "No WEL [Workplace Exposure Limit] has been set for DEEEs [Diesel Engine Exhaust Emissions] as a whole because there is insufficient data to establish a clear, reliable threshold for all potential health effects. Furthermore, there is no ideal candidate marker of exposure to DEEEs on which to base a WEL."

There are known safe levels for some of the gases in diesel fumes, but these are generally within the limits in the workplace where diesel engines are used. Aside from these, the criteria used are in terms of things like visible fumes, soot deposits, complaints of irritation, and the steps that the business takes to limit exposure to fumes.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that this is a problem with a simple solution. I wouldn't, myself, go so far as to assume that the readings the journalist obtained were typical, or that they were interpreted in a suitable manner in the article.

Incidentally, there was a Dispatches program recently on a similar theme.

 

[al78]

And power stations aren't in the middle of cities where people live!

It is also easier to take measures to reduce emissions from one power station as opposed to each of the how ever many vehicles that power station is providing power. It should also be noted that when people advocate lowering emissions in general, it does not mean focusing on one source of emissions and ignoring all others, it means looking at ALL sources of emissions and looking at ways to reduce them, so that will include decarbonisation of the electricity supply.

 

[QueensCurve]

Like what exactly?

Fluoride for a start.

 

[tom1649]

I wonder what readings he would have got on a 101 going through Totley tunnel. The presence of fumes was sometimes apparent not only by the smell but the visual haze when looking toward the other end of the carriage!

 

[Starmill]

I can often smell diesel exhaust through the air conditioning of a 185 when going through Tunnels. It is slightly worrying given we know these fumes are carcinogenic...

 

[DarloRich]

I can often smell diesel exhaust through the air conditioning of a 185 when going through Tunnels. It is slightly worrying given we know these fumes are carcinogenic...

I wouldn't let it worry you. I doubt it is any worse than being stood in town waiting to cross the road at a busy crossing. The time in the confined space of the tunnel must be minimal. The exposure level would have to be very high to cause any issues, surely?

 

[Mikey C]

I wouldn't let it worry you. I doubt it is any worse than being stood in town waiting to cross the road at a busy crossing. The time in the confined space of the tunnel must be minimal. The exposure level would have to be very high to cause any issues, surely?

But then if the fumes are sucked in via the aircon, won't they'll stay in the carriage for a long time?

Unless you're walking along the main road for 20 minutes, you'll get away from the worst pollution when you use side streets instead

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what readings he would have got on a 101 going through Totley tunnel. The presence of fumes was sometimes apparent not only by the smell but the visual haze when looking toward the other end of the carriage!

Even more so going steeply uphill in the single-track Blaenau tunnel!

 

[leytongabriel]

No surprise that the St Pancras reading was so high. Have been grumbling away for years that this so-called design-award station is designed so that the prevailing winds blow all the East Midland diesel fumes into the Eurostar and South Eastern side of the station. Must be horrible for staff who have to work on the platforms. Needs a barrier mid-staion and some upward venting.

 

[DarloRich]

But then if the fumes are sucked in via the aircon, won't they'll stay in the carriage for a long time?

Unless you're walking along the main road for 20 minutes, you'll get away from the worst pollution when you use side streets instead

wont the filters and chemicals in the air con not help to reduce the problem?

 

[Mikey C]

wont the filters and chemicals in the air con not help to reduce the problem?

The trains in the article were all aircon trains, and since he commuted by Diesel from Bedford, presumably he was on a 222 so not even that old a train.

 

[Phil.]

I wonder if anyone has thought of having all the diesel engines in a train in one vehicle - which could be called a "locomotive" - instead of distributed throughout the train.....

Tried that but acceleration suffers as well as traction in poor conditions. Put an engine on each vehicle and you've got improved traction and a constant power to weight ratio no matter how many vehicles the train is made up to.

 

[delt1c]

Did the reporter check the levels in the toilets of the units to see if the levels increased. No1 or No 2

 

[Starmill]

I'm on a 185 at the minute that has particularly bad diesel exhaust intake. I can taste it and am starting to get headache.

 

[randyrippley]

there was some roadside research in Lancaster a couple of years ago which proved conclusively that trees are very good at reducing diesel particulates in the air.
So the answer is simple - plant many more trees alongside the lines.

Or maybe its the current lineside vegetation elimination that's making the pollution levels go up?

 

[The Ham]

there was some roadside research in Lancaster a couple of years ago which proved conclusively that trees are very good at reducing diesel particulates in the air.
So the answer is simple - plant many more trees alongside the lines.

Or maybe its the current lineside vegetation elimination that's making the pollution levels go up?

Trees do help lower problems with pollutants (some places in London are building green corridors between the road and cycleways to make it"cleaner" for cyclists), however it takes time and so a unit disbursing it's fumes won't be helped by the trees before it sucks it back into the carriages.

Maybe people should be encouraged to carry a potted plant with them when they travel (I was going to phrase it as pot plant, but then realised that could be miss interpreted!).