High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[YorkshireBear]

My thoughts are that many of the trains going north east from Birmingham will not run into Leeds but through places like Doncaster to York and then on to Newcastle.

looking at Google earth it might be possible to build a fast line from the area south west of Nevil Hill onto the ECML. It would be a tight fit though.

Not Doncaster but York yes. General patterns are to be Newcastle Darlington London. Newcastle York London. And Newcastle Durham Darlington York South Yorks East Mids and Birmingham Curzon street.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
There is no route out of the North of Leeds. Trust me i have spent hours trawling through map after map after map. Only solution i came up with was to build track over the existing to neville hill depot. Decided against it.

Agreed - the only sensible route is to the south and east of the city. Which is why Bradford begins to look a more sensible station site than Leeds, with onward routing roughly following the M62

But it doesnt need to be a through station. Newcastle trains are not intending on stopping at Leeds. It seems to me the spur will be built to York sout of leeds but north of sheffield.

This simply reinforces the idea that the link is to serve London, and would result in Leeds effectively becoming a dormitory town (as it effectively is becoming today). Leeds/Bradford needs a proper link to the north, Newcastle and Scotland if is to have any future growth.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This simply reinforces the idea that the link is to serve London, and would result in Leeds effectively becoming a dormitory town (as it effectively is becoming today). Leeds/Bradford needs a proper link to the north, Newcastle and Scotland if is to have any future growth.

But what journey time savings will you achieve??? You would achieve a max 5 minutes benefit by Leeds being a through station as it would only be increased speeds for 15 miles max. Newcastle will maintain its link through the current route and not loose out at all.

 

[Waverley125]

Leeds will, it'll have a north-west curve onto the HS line to Newcastle when it gets built.

The site in Holbeck is also not viable, as it would require the demolition of nearly all of the Holbeck Urban Village, one of Leeds' main growth areas for new businesses, so that's not going to happen.

As for CP, too many people are looking at the OS and not the topography.

The station was in a cutting, which has been filled in, so there is a gentle rise in height from the southern end of the site, and the portal to the existing rail alignment, to Hunslet Lane.

The station, if built, will be in a cutting, and will have Hunslet Lane bridging it, cutting through the trainshed. The actual station buildings will be where the Tetleys Brewery (if you're looking at overhead photos, it's now been demolished, was).

So the main entrance to Leeds HS will be on Meadow Lane & Salem Place, rather than the South Side of Hunslet Lane (if you look at the overhead photos, on bing maps, there's currently a petrol station there).

From there it will be easy to build a footbridge over the Aire between the redeveloped warehouses and ASDA House, to Sovereign Street. City station is then dead ahead, and that's the site for the South Eastern entrance that's been discussed.

The distance will be about 250m, walkable easily in 3-5 minutes. Also the station will be adjacent to the Leeds Bridge, and only 5 minutes walk from Briggate, the heart of Leeds.

 

[billio]

I think the best place for a new HS2 station in Leeds would be at Holbeck, perhaps diving below the existing lines from Leeds City and then connecting to the Skipton & Harrogate Lines. This would be a good site if the HS2 line is to approach Leeds along the old Midland route into Leeds. There appears to be space to the NE of the existing lines.

For access by car it is close to the A58(M) and has direct access to Leeds City Centre along Whitehall Road. Access to other train services could be either through additional platforms on the existing lines or by moving walkway to Leeds City.

Holbeck allows through working to the North towards Skipton. Large parts of this route were once 4 tracks so there could be a parallel HS line, or the speed of the existing line could be improved. Terminating the Yorkshire HS trains in Bradford Forster Square would be a great boost for the City.

Depending on where the HS route goes towards Scotland there is the possibility of extending the line beyond Skipton towards that, allowing trains from Glasgow to travel via Leeds and the East side of the country.

 

[Oswyntail]

But what journey time savings will you achieve??? You would achieve a max 5 minutes benefit by Leeds being a through station as it would only be increased speeds for 15 miles max. Newcastle will maintain its link through the current route and not loose out at all.

There is more to having a station than increased speed (apart from your second sentence being a tad mystic). To benefit properly, a city as vulnerable as Leeds (reliant as it is almost totally on service industry) will need links to the whole country. If it is perceived as easier, quicker and more modern for a businessman to go to London as to Leeds, which will he choose? Unless, of course, you consider the purpose of the entire trunk transport network is to get people to and from London.

 

[JohnCarlson]

There is more to having a station than increased speed (apart from your second sentence being a tad mystic). To benefit properly, a city as vulnerable as Leeds (reliant as it is almost totally on service industry) will need links to the whole country. If it is perceived as easier, quicker and more modern for a businessman to go to London as to Leeds, which will he choose? Unless, of course, you consider the purpose of the entire trunk transport network is to get people to and from London.

Although I am broadly in support of HS2 I sometimes wonder what many people see the case for it as being. Sometimes it seems to amount to little more than it will allow a few businessmen to get from Birmingham to London half an hour faster.


For me the best case is that it should allow ordinary people to move around the UK faster, more comfortably and more cheaply. I tend to see the Leeds Birmingham section as offering greater improvements that the Birmingham to London line.

John

 

[LE Greys]

Although I am broadly in support of HS2 I sometimes wonder what many people see the case for it as being. Sometimes it seems to amount to little more than it will allow a few businessmen to get from Birmingham to London half an hour faster.


For me the best case is that it should allow ordinary people to move around the UK faster, more comfortably and more cheaply. I tend to see the Leeds Birmingham section as offering greater improvements that the Birmingham to London line.

John

The placement of stations anywhere other than London does lend itself to that view, as does the use of captive stock. However, I still retain some hope that HS2 can suppliment the existing inter-city network without that gradually turning into an inter-urban semi-fast service (which is my concern if HS2 is allowed to compete with it). If Leeds is simply a stepping stone to Edinburgh, as it ought to be, then maybe we will see better, faster trains for everyone. I agree that that ought to be the ultimate aim.

 

[tbtc]

There is more to having a station than increased speed

A normal station, yes. But for a station on HS2, high speed is fairly important.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Hi there,
A while back I came up with a map of the various Leeds HS2 station options that I thought might be considered. It was posted in the HS2 Discussion thread (pg66) but I think it's worth showing again...

The green options are for through stations. The red are for terminating stations. I suppose that with a sharpish turn, the terminus at Crown Point retail park could become a through station...


Personally I think that if it's a terminus it'll be at Crown Point retail park. If it's a through station then the resuse of the old viaduct allignment and a station in Holbeck, close to the existing station, would be cost effective and quite practical.

Cheers,
Jason

This begs the question of how many hs2 trains per hour will actually terminate at Leeds. I would see a case for fast trains to Leeds then running on to the usual list of places.


If captive stock is to be double deck running on a pile it high sell it cheap basis then I could see the role for a terminus. But if I lived in Newcastle or York I wouldn't be keen on the idea of Leeds building a terminus station.

John

 

[tbtc]

if I lived in Newcastle or York I wouldn't be keen on the idea of Leeds building a terminus station

I'm really not sure about the need for HS2 to bother with York - it's going to be going non-stop past plenty of larger places elsewhere in the country - York is going to retain services to London etc anyway - is there much justification for serving York with HS2 other than because of its railway heritage?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Leeds will have 6tph. 3 London, 2 Birmingham, 1 Heathrow.

 

[JohnCarlson]

A normal station, yes. But for a station on HS2, high speed is fairly important.

Yes but so is being close to where people want to be. Leeds certainly presents difficulties in combining the two.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm really not sure about the need for HS2 to bother with York - it's going to be going non-stop past plenty of larger places elsewhere in the country - York is going to retain services to London etc anyway - is there much justification for serving York with HS2 other than because of its railway heritage?

Well York was pretty busy last time I was there and there were a lot of people heading in the Birmingham/Sheffield direction.

What I am saying that given the fact of having a fast service to Leeds then it would be better for the infrastructure to allow it to continue onto York and indeed other places than just come up against a set of buffers.

 

[6Gman]

Leeds will have 6tph. 3 London, 2 Birmingham, 1 Heathrow.

Heathrow?

 

[JohnCarlson]

Leeds will have 6tph. 3 London, 2 Birmingham, 1 Heathrow.

Yes but how many of these will terminate at Leeds and would you want to hard wire termination at Leeds into the system.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm really not sure about the need for HS2 to bother with York - it's going to be going non-stop past plenty of larger places elsewhere in the country - York is going to retain services to London etc anyway - is there much justification for serving York with HS2 other than because of its railway heritage?

There are two reasons. Firstly, York is an important tourist city, partly because it is on a primary main line from London. With the inevitable diversions and downgrades, it will suddenly be on a secondary main line from London, meaning a disaster for the tourist industry and the local economy. Secondly (and more importantly if you live in Hertfordshire) York is the ideal spot for East-North traffic to join/leave HS2, meaning that Doncaster, Retford, Newark, Grantham, Peterborough, Stevenage and King's Cross will still be one change away from Scotland - or ideally still have a direct service. Otherwise, that means that a large catchment area (practically all of East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Hertfordshire and the East Riding) will see no direct benefit from HS2, merely a suburbanisation of their current services.

 

[Nym]

No-one realising here that there'll likely be a delta junction just to the East of Leeds with branches to Brum Delta, Leeds and York.

Then likely have 6tph from London up the East Coast...

3tph to Leeds and 3tph through York to Newcastle and maybe elsewhere. Splitting services at Sheffeild Nunnery Square and/or Leeds East Parkway (on one side of Leeds Delta Junction, proberbly the York side to land at the same area as, ummm, Leeds East Parkway, with junctions in several directions) services can then run at 3tph to Newcastle, 3tph to Leeds and 3tph to elsewhere by portion working to have HS2 services to Hull, Harrogate, Bradford (By link at Leeds), Skiption (Link at Leeds), Lincoln (Link at Sheffeild) and Cleethorpes (Link at Sheffeild).

One could also possibly see 140m long units running up and down in tripple formation. (Or 120m / 138m) to be able to send two portions via Newcastle and one onto somewhere else, retaining 240/280m units for Edinbrugh and Glasgow services (possibly again, extending to Abderdeen and Inverness)

If you can't tell, I'm a fan of running off route at the ends and providing a locomotive to haul it on diesel routes. A similar system would likely operate using Manchester West Parkway.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Heathrow?

The feb 2012 buisness case presumes a spur from heathrow for access from north.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes but how many of these will terminate at Leeds and would you want to hard wire termination at Leeds into the system.

All these terminate at Leeds.
With Newcastle getting 3tph terminating. 2 London, 1 Birmingham.

 

[bangor-toad]

No-one realising here that there'll likely be a delta junction just to the East of Leeds with branches to Brum Delta, Leeds and York.

If Leeds gets a terminus then this will be the case. I wonder where it'll be squeezed in and if it will be a delta allowing access to/from all routes or just a "Y" not allowing Leeds <--> The North services...

Of course, if Leeds is a through station then this issue goes away.


But it does raise another point:
How far to the north will HS2b extend?

The cheapest (shortest?) option would be to join the existing Leeds <--> York line just to the east/northeast of Leeds. That'd allow access to York but I guess would be challenging to find paths without significantly upgrading the line. It's also a bit of a long way around...

But if the HS line continues northwards on a fast allignment, it's got a long way to go before rejoining the ECML. I'd be rather surprised if this were the case.

Any idea?
Jason

 

[Waverley125]

It'll be a Delta, with junctions at Stourton, Church Fenton and Methley.

 

[Jonny]

Has anyone realised that HS2 is a long-way-round to the North East from London? The ECML (for the North East) goes to the east, as do the most practicable road routes (even using the M1 )

My view of HS2 is that it should be a patch until another, direct-to-Newcastle line is built for the North-East and Scotland, maybe using anything built for HS2 that lies north of York, and the HS2 used for Leeds-London and North-East to South-West (Cross-country) services.

 

[Nym]

Of course, but Yorkshire and the North East (and Cambridgeshire / Linconshire) alone cannot support the business case got HS Rail from London, as part of a project for the North West, it is quite possible...

 

[tbtc]

There are two reasons. Firstly, York is an important tourist city, partly because it is on a primary main line from London. With the inevitable diversions and downgrades, it will suddenly be on a secondary main line from London, meaning a disaster for the tourist industry and the local economy. Secondly (and more importantly if you live in Hertfordshire) York is the ideal spot for East-North traffic to join/leave HS2, meaning that Doncaster, Retford, Newark, Grantham, Peterborough, Stevenage and King's Cross will still be one change away from Scotland - or ideally still have a direct service. Otherwise, that means that a large catchment area (practically all of East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Hertfordshire and the East Riding) will see no direct benefit from HS2, merely a suburbanisation of their current services.

If HS2 is going to stop in York then that presumably would mean any Kings Cross services would go no further north than York.

Plenty of places won't see any direct benefit from HS2 - it's only Y-shaped one railway line after all. Trying to satisfy every county will just result in a horrible compromise.

Sheffeild Nunnery Square

Not going to happen

Has anyone realised that HS2 is a long-way-round to the North East from London? The ECML (for the North East) goes to the east, as do the most practicable road routes (even using the M1 )

Yes, but then when you are travelling at such high speeds it's less of an issue that the train travels via the West Midlands.

 

[nerd]

If Leeds gets a terminus then this will be the case. I wonder where it'll be squeezed in and if it will be a delta allowing access to/from all routes or just a "Y" not allowing Leeds <--> The North services...

Of course, if Leeds is a through station then this issue goes away.


But it does raise another point:
How far to the north will HS2b extend?

The cheapest (shortest?) option would be to join the existing Leeds <--> York line just to the east/northeast of Leeds. That'd allow access to York but I guess would be challenging to find paths without significantly upgrading the line. It's also a bit of a long way around...

But if the HS line continues northwards on a fast allignment, it's got a long way to go before rejoining the ECML. I'd be rather surprised if this were the case.

Any idea?
Jason

Most unlikely, I think, that the Leeds spur will have a northward facing chord. Much more likely that the electrified line to Selby will have a northward link onto HS2 east of Leeds. Then - should HS2 go on towards Newcastle and Scotland classic-compatible units will be able to run north from Leeds Central along the high speed line.

 

[cnicht]

A through route to the North East could be through the gap between Leeds and Bradford with a possible station in the Pudey area then carrying on the route of the the proposed Pudsey Dishforth Motorway scheme from the 1980s, which would go close to the L & B Airport then across the Wharfe valley to the east of Harrogate and Knaresborough and joins the East Coast near to Thirsk. There will be a stub into South Leeds Station, as for building a station above the existing station this would be too expensive and disruptive to the existing station which is the busiest station outside London.

 

[LE Greys]

If HS2 is going to stop in York then that presumably would mean any Kings Cross services would go no further north than York.

Plenty of places won't see any direct benefit from HS2 - it's only Y-shaped one railway line after all. Trying to satisfy every county will just result in a horrible compromise.

IMO, a Y-shaped railway is a horrible compromise. It's an attempt to try to shoe-horn all the traffic of the ECML, the WCML and the MML down one route while ignoring the fact that the majority of the population lives on either side of the "stem" of the "Y".

If we were to ignore costs, an ideal network would look a bit like Serpall's Option A, multiple lines radiating out from London to Norwich, Newcastle, Sheffield, Edinburgh/Glasgow, Bristol and the Channel Tunnel. However, 'if we were to ignore costs' is the problem here. The question is 'what do we do about it?'. If we keep the 'Y', then having a 1 tph King's Cross-Edinburgh service retained is my biggest concern. Ideally, it would retain on-board catering and a decent level of internal accommodation and continue with stock upgrades. Another acceptable compromise would be a semi-fast running to York where passengers can change to a high-speed service for Edinburgh (which is generally what happens today anyway). A semi-fast to Leeds (which would negate any speed gains) or Newcastle (a long way on a slowed-down train) is a horrible compromise compared with what we have now.

 

[JohnCarlson]

The feb 2012 buisness case presumes a spur from heathrow for access from north.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


All these terminate at Leeds.
With Newcastle getting 3tph terminating. 2 London, 1 Birmingham.

Well maybe. The thing I keep thinking though is that the system is little more than a projected line on a map yet, a lot could change with the real world before HS2 even gets to Leeds and once its open things could change again.

John

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the statement about HS2 was first put into the public domain, would there already have been detailed meetings to decide where in both Leeds and Manchester, these new stations may have been situated?

 

[nerd]

When the statement about HS2 was first put into the public domain, would there already have been detailed meetings to decide where in both Leeds and Manchester, these new stations may have been situated?

HS2 Ltd (or rather their sub-contracted engineers) will have been having detailed discussions around a range of options in both cities; both as to possible locations for the terminating station, and as to possible route alignments for the spur in.

So local planning officers will have known a range of possible options for the station site. But none of those undertaking the discussions (on either side) would have known which was HS2 Ltd's 'preferred' option; and, even if they did, this would not assure them as to which would be the DfT 'preferred' option.

It does seem that there have been a number of minsterial meetings recently with local civic leaders; both along the DfT 'preferred' route, and in respect of station locations - and it seems that the news stories confirming Meadowhall as the Sheffield site arose from one of these meetings. So there will be some local politicos who are privy to these matters as they affect their specific localities; but all are likely to be bound by confidentiality (and most unlikely to breach it). The most likely sources for possible early leaks would be HS2-hostile MPs in rural areas along the new route.

But in any case; it does look very likely that Mayfield will be the preferred site in Manchester, and Crown Point in Leeds

 

[Ivo]

Source: BBC

A rail expert has challenged the government's decision to route its planned high-speed rail link between London and Birmingham from Euston.

Dick Keegan, former director of projects at British Rail, believes Stratford station would provide better links for London airports and Europe.

It would also avoid the demolition of over 200 homes around Euston.

The Department for Transport said Euston was selected after a careful review including development prospects.

Phase one of HS2, between London and Birmingham, should be running by 2026, with the rail link later extending to northern England.

The government says the rail network will provide direct high-capacity, high-speed links between London, Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester.

Stratford in east London is served by two underground lines, overground rail services and the Docklands Light Railway.

It was upgraded ahead of the Olympics, with new lifts and station entrances.

Mr Keegan, who has worked in the railway industry since 1959, said: "The route proposed does not serve Heathrow directly and there is no direct link to Europe.

"Stratford already serves Stansted airport, City airport and Southend, and when Crossrail is completed it will be possible to transfer there to travel to Heathrow. Stratford has two international platforms that are unused."

Euston, in the borough of Camden, will need to be expanded to become the HS2 terminus - which the government says is an opportunity to regenerate the area.

It will mean the demolition of about 216 homes, the loss of some businesses and the relocation of a secondary school. Camden Council has said that insufficient justification was given for why alternative stations were discounted.

A Department for Transport spokeswoman said: "HS2 carefully reviewed all the possible station options, and a report on this was part of a major public consultation in 2011."

I can't say I agree with this view. It's too far out of the way compared to the route's trajectory into London; it would have to run right across London in some capacity or another. OK, if a link was built with HS1, then perhaps some services could extend to Stratford International, but otherwise there is no benefit to this scheme that would adequately negate the issues that come with the idea such as the lack of a "central" station. There is also the fact that the proposed improvements in the Underground around Euston - I believe it and Euston Square are to be merged? - effectively negate the advantages to this, and there was even an idea for the DLR to reach Euston at one stage.

I must say though, that's probably the first time I've seen anyone off this forum relate HS2 to Southend