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How can Arriva justify their fares?

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northwichcat

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How can Arriva justify the high single bus fares for the short trip between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Airport, without offering period returns when National Express are offering Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport tickets for almost the same price for travel on a coach?
 
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bb21

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Do they need justification? Seems that it is a common strategy for the group all over the country, ie. ripping off passengers wherever they can.

Incidentally, how much do they charge for that journey?
 
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Arriva Southern Counties are no better ...

A single 1.5 mile trip from Halfway to Sheerness Tesco is £2.30
A single from Halfway to Sittingbourne (about 10 miles) is £2.80.

Go figure.

Same buses too (ALX400/Dart)!
 

WestCoast

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Stagecoach charge less for a day ticket than some single fares in my area! :roll:

There are other operators with bus services between Liverpool South Parkway and the Airport, aren't there? I am sure it wasn't an Arriva bus I travelled on.

There is also a through ticket you can buy to the airport. I flew earlier in the year to the Isle of Man from Liverpool (flights are cheaper from there because there are two airlines on the route), and I purchased this type of ticket.
 

northwichcat

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Incidentally, how much do they charge for that journey?

£1.80 single the last time I used it. National Express charge £1.90 single for Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are other operators with bus services between Liverpool South Parkway and the Airport, aren't there? I am sure it wasn't an Arriva bus I travelled on.

If you travelled between Liverpool South Parkway and the Airport it must have been an Arriva bus, although some are painted in a dark blue livery and have route 501 branding opposed to Arriva branding.

Stagecoach also operate buses to Liverpool South Parkway but don't run between South Parkway and the Airport.
 

WestCoast

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£1.80 single the last time I used it. National Express charge £1.90 single for Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport.

How often do National Express run though? People catching flights/going home don't want to be hanging around waiting for a coach that runs half a dozen times a day or something like that. National Express will know if they aren't going to sell many tickets on that flow.

I can't see many people booking in advance for such a short journey (in coach terms).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you travelled between Liverpool South Parkway and the Airport it must have been an Arriva bus, although some are painted in a dark blue livery and have route 501 branding opposed to Arriva branding.

Yes, it was a dark blue 501 bus. A few years ago, I am sure there was another bus company on the route, possibly a small operator on a Merseytravel contract service. Looking at the timetables, it's all Arriva nowadays.
 
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northwichcat

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How often do National Express run though? People catching flights/going home don't want to be hanging around waiting for a coach that runs half a dozen times a day or something like that.

I can't see many people booking in advance for such a short journey (in coach terms).

National Express offer on the day tickets for Airport journeys.

They run a Birkenhead-Sheffield service approx. every 2 hours that serves both Liverpool and Manchester Airports.

Birkenhead isn't exactly an easy journey by train from Liverpool Airport:
Stage 1: Bus to South Parkway
Stage 2: Train to Liverpool Central
Stage 3: Train to Birkenhead

I think some returning holiday makers would sooner wait in a cafe for 45 minutes or so and catch a direct coach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, it was a dark blue 501 bus. A few years ago, I am sure there was another bus company on the route, possibly a small operator on a Merseytravel contract service. Looking at the timetables, it's all Arriva nowadays.

Selwyns operated the Route 500 Liverpool Airport to Liverpool City Centre service up until around 2005 but Arriva took that over and introduced the 501 when South Parkway opened.
 

WestCoast

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National Express offer on the day tickets for Airport journeys.

They run a Birkenhead-Sheffield service approx. every 2 hours that serves both Liverpool and Manchester Airports.

Birkenhead isn't exactly an easy journey by train from Liverpool Airport:
Stage 1: Bus to South Parkway
Stage 2: Train to Liverpool Central
Stage 3: Train to Birkenhead

I think some returning holiday makers would sooner wait in a cafe for 45 minutes or so and catch a direct coach.

I didn't realise they had such a comprehensive offering.

The NatEx website is pulling up £2.20 single for me, but that's also for the shorter Liverpool Airport to City Centre journey. Isn't that the larger flow here?

Oh, and when you pay on the coach on NatEx, doesn't the driver have to ring up control to check that there is room for you, as pre-booked ticket holders are guaranteed a seat? That was the procedure when I last saw it happen.

However, don't forget that through tickets are offered which include the shuttle from South Parkway.

It is possible to book through rail/bus tickets from any railway station to the airport so there is no need to buy separate train and bus tickets. Simply ask for 'Liverpool John Lennon Airport' when buying your ticket!
- from Merseytravel.

I'd also point out holidaymakers from the Wirral are likely to live closer to a Merseyrail station than the coach/bus station, so that may even be a more convenient option than a coach, despite the changes.

If bus/coach operators think they can get away with charging a 'premium price', they will tend to do so..
 
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northwichcat

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The NatEx website is pulling up £2.20 single for me, but that's also for the shorter Liverpool Airport to City Centre journey. Isn't that the larger flow here?

It seems to be £2.20 on the day or £1.90 if you book at least 24 hours in advance.

Oh, and when you pay on the coach on NatEx, doesn't the driver have to ring up control to check that there is room for you, as pre-booked ticket holders are guaranteed a seat? That was the procedure when I last saw it happen.

At Liverpool and Manchester coach stations they've got machines that'll sell you a ticket subject to there being space on the coach, so they may well have installed one of those.

I thought either the coach driver or another employee usually has a full list of passengers that they tick off against now that a lot of people travel on e-tickets which are easier to duplicate.

However, don't forget that through tickets are offered which include the shuttle from South Parkway.

Which online booking engines know nothing about.
 

WestCoast

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At Liverpool and Manchester coach stations they've got machines that'll sell you a ticket subject to there being space on the coach, so they may well have installed one of those..

I have only seen the Northern TVM at Liverpool Airport, Liverpool Airport's website says tickets can be purchased from information desk in the departures hall so they must have the facilities there.

www.liverpoolairport.com/from-airport/by-coach.html

Terravision have their own manned desk.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought either the coach driver or another employee usually has a full list of passengers that they tick off against now that a lot of people travel on e-tickets which are easier to duplicate..

That's what Megabus, easyBus and Terravision do. I can't remember ever having my e-ticket checked against a list on National Express, although I haven't travelled with them for about a year. NX's e-tickets have a barcode and numeric code as I remember, and you have to bring the printed sheet with you unlike megabus.
 
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northwichcat

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That's what Megabus, easyBus and Terravision do. I can't remember ever having my e-ticket checked against a list on National Express, although I haven't travelled with them for about a year. NX's e-tickets have a barcode and numeric code as I remember, and you have to bring the printed sheet with you unlike megabus.

National Express certainly tick off passengers before they board at Manchester and Liverpool.

The only time I used Megabus the driver took my printed sheet with the booking reference on, looked at it for about 10 seconds and handed it back without doing anything else.
 

Old Timer

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How can Arriva justify the high single bus fares for the short trip between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Airport, without offering period returns when National Express are offering Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport tickets for almost the same price for travel on a coach?
It is called the law of supply and demand, the same one that says plumbers can ask the earth to come and fix a leak when you have one.
 

WestCoast

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National Express certainly tick off passengers before they board at Manchester and Liverpool.

The only time I used Megabus the driver took my printed sheet with the booking reference on, looked at it for about 10 seconds and handed it back without doing anything else.

Funny, I've done a lot of megabus travel (albeit in 2006-8) and they've always had a sheet to tick off! I have boarded NX at bus stops (literally) rather than coach stations though, which perhaps explains why the driver has just looked at the e-ticket.

Although, to be honest I tend to avoid coaches now. Advance fares for long-distance travel on rail is much preferable.
 

Ivo

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How can Arriva justify the high single bus fares for the short trip between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Airport, without offering period returns when National Express are offering Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport tickets for almost the same price for travel on a coach?

They can't. End of.

Back home, 14 years ago - i.e. before the Arriva named first appeared - a one stop single would cost 30p. The same journey now costs something like £1.30. This may not sound that much against some other areas, but Southend has long had cheap-ish bus fares - until recently. Fares have probably gone up 60% in 5 years.

The sad thing is, as we all know, you need look no further than XC for evidence of their price strategy.
 

Harbon 1

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How can Arriva justify the high single bus fares for the short trip between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Airport, without offering period returns when National Express are offering Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport tickets for almost the same price for travel on a coach?

it's the same in my home town.

Arriva - just over one mile, 70p
Trent Barton - over 2 miles, 65p
(child fares btw)

i just try and avoid them when possible! but now ive got my staffordshire card, its not so bad :P
 

HSTEd

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How can Arriva justify the high single bus fares for the short trip between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Airport, without offering period returns when National Express are offering Birkenhead to Liverpool Airport tickets for almost the same price for travel on a coach?

The glory of the market.
This is what transport deregulation does.

Private corporations do not exist to provide a service, they exist to make money.
 

radamfi

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I think some people are not aware that on most bus services in GB outside London operators are free to put up fares as often as they want, by as much as they want. And this gets virtually no publicity. Compare this to the fuss made in the media with much lower train fare rises, and there is some regulation of train fares.
 

Old Timer

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The glory of the market.
This is what transport deregulation does.

Private corporations do not exist to provide a service, they exist to make money.
Well done that Chap !

Of course the Corporation Tax on those profits that they make (as well as tax paid on the dividends by the shareholders) is what helps keep your tax payments lower than would be the case, as well as helping to secure your Pension.

They also assist Councils in keeping down local taxes.

Private Corporations also develop the various drugs and medical equipment which hospitals and Doctors use, help to make safer cars (which presumably you use), surface the highways, manufacture the computer and IT equipment you are using, and indeed the very line through which you are connected, unless you are on a mobile in which case that will include the telephone as well as the airtime and network.



I think some people are not aware that on most bus services in GB outside London operators are free to put up fares as often as they want, by as much as they want. And this gets virtually no publicity. Compare this to the fuss made in the media with much lower train fare rises, and there is some regulation of train fares.
I went to get a loaf of bread today to find that it has risen so 30% since I last bought it earlier in the year. many other things in the supermarket had either risen dramatically or the pack sizes are now smaller, 400/430grammes rather than 454grammes for example.

Must have missed the massive public outcry over that, which is surely more hurtful on the purse than rail fares ?
 
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tbtc

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National Express certainly tick off passengers before they board at Manchester and Liverpool

Even if they've done nothing wrong?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I went to get a loaf of bread today to find that it has risen so 30% since I last bought it earlier in the year. many other things in the supermarket had either risen dramatically or the pack sizes are now smaller, 400/430grammes rather than 454grammes for example.

Must have missed the massive public outcry over that, which is surely more hurtful on the purse than rail fares ?

There's been plenty "outcry" about the failure to keep inflation manageable, especially at a time when most people are getting real term pay cuts (myself included).
 

radamfi

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Must have missed the massive public outcry over that, which is surely more hurtful on the purse than rail fares ?

How important is reducing car usage? Some people think that is the most important issue there is.
 

Old Timer

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Socio-economic factors make that idea less than achieveable easily.

One very quick fix would be the return to children travelling to school by bus or simply walking, however the fear of crime prevents this. Had we a Government that wanted to seriously put fear back into the Criminal they would set about tackling that issue.

The school run, in many cases using Chelsea Tractors, causes much paek time travel congestion, and the size of these things take up much more space that needs be.

There is absolutely no reason for someone in any town or city to need one, indeed the only reason I can see the need outside the Farming and Country fraternity to drive such large and cumbersome things for by those who need a penis substitute.
 

radamfi

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I have recently learned how cycling has developed in the Netherlands. Obviously everyone knows that the Dutch are famous as a bicycle using nation, but I didn't realise how big cycling really is there, and how it didn't happen by accident.

I had always assumed that the Dutch have always had great cycle paths and very high cycle usage, but after watching this video:

http://vimeo.com/29401217

I realised this wasn't actually the case.

The video shows that cycling was actually in steep decline in the Netherlands as they followed car orientated policies like other countries until the 1970s. Cycle paths were rare and cyclists had to share the roads with cars just like everywhere else. However, due to a public outcry over the huge accident death toll and the 1970s oil crisis they decided that they had to change. Since then, the Netherlands has developed a comprehensive nationwide network of mostly segregated cycle paths.

I have since come across this blog

http://hembrow.blogspot.com/

and found it fascinating and I have read up on the whole archive since 2008. The main author is from England but emigrated to the Netherlands because of the cycling culture and for a better place to bring up his children. Because children can cycle in safety over there they have complete freedom to cycle everywhere by themselves, meaning no need for 'dad's taxi' and the school run.

The overriding theme of the blog is that segregated infrastructure following the Dutch model is essential to getting Dutch levels of cycle usage. On road cycle lanes and discontinuous cycle paths are basically useless. He now runs 'study tours' where he invites foreigners to see the infrastructure first hand. Although I reckon you can learn everything you need to know by watching the videos on his blog. He lives in Assen where over 40% of trips are made by bike. He debunks myths about why the Dutch cycle so much, particularly the excuse that the Netherlands is flat, as the flatness means that headwinds can by quite severe. The main reason why the cycle is because routes are direct, convenient, safe and often quicker than the car. Almost every blog post shows a different way of how the Dutch have developed cycling, leaving me jaw dropped at times.

http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/repository/bestanden/CyclingintheNetherlands2009.pdf

showed me a very surprising graph. Only 5% of trips in the Netherlands are by bus/tram/metro/train, despite their reputation for good public transport. This is because 26% of trips are by bike and 19% of trips are walked, meaning only 48% of trips are by car. For trips under 7.5 km, only 36% of trips are by car, which is remarkably low for such a wealthy country.

Despite the huge success, this isn't good enough. The Dutch are now building high speed intercity cycle paths to encourage long distance cycle commuting, even though there are already decent cycle paths in existence on these routes. There is a massive shortage of cycle parking at railway stations even though stations already have vast parking facilities. So the railways have committed to spending 100 million euros per year every year on cycle parking every year until 2020.

The good thing about all this is that the UK doesn't have to work out how to emulate this - they can just copy the Dutch model. The sad thing is that the UK chooses to ignore all this evidence and not invest, or when we actually have decent resources to do something, we squander the money. A standard segregated Dutch cycle path is infinitely better than that waste of blue paint, but they just call it a cycle path, not hype it as a 'superhighway'.
 

tbtc

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Socio-economic factors make that idea less than achieveable easily.

One very quick fix would be the return to children travelling to school by bus or simply walking, however the fear of crime prevents this. Had we a Government that wanted to seriously put fear back into the Criminal they would set about tackling that issue.

The school run, in many cases using Chelsea Tractors, causes much paek time travel congestion, and the size of these things take up much more space that needs be.

There is absolutely no reason for someone in any town or city to need one, indeed the only reason I can see the need outside the Farming and Country fraternity to drive such large and cumbersome things for by those who need a penis substitute.

Ah, but this is the free market...
 

HSTEd

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Well done that Chap !

Of course the Corporation Tax on those profits that they make (as well as tax paid on the dividends by the shareholders) is what helps keep your tax payments lower than would be the case, as well as helping to secure your Pension.

They also assist Councils in keeping down local taxes.

Private Corporations also develop the various drugs and medical equipment which hospitals and Doctors use, help to make safer cars (which presumably you use), surface the highways, manufacture the computer and IT equipment you are using, and indeed the very line through which you are connected, unless you are on a mobile in which case that will include the telephone as well as the airtime and network.


So you deny that private companies first priority is to make the best possible returns on its shareholders investment?
Any company that does not do this rapidly falls to pieces.

I'm not sure why you compare computer design and manufacturing to infrastructural and public service businesses where almost by definition there is no functioning market, or with transport businesses where any competition has long since ceased in favour of every company cooperating to avoid wasting shareholders money competing when they can all generate better returns sticking to there own ground.
(You don't see Volvo and Ford refusing to sell cars in areas "claimed" by the other, or Asus and Dell undertaking to cooperate to hold prices of computers unreasonably high)

I wasn't aware the rate of Corporation Tax was 100% either, the bus company almost certainly takes all possible measures to reduce its tax burden (as this maximises the return for the investor).
If the service was publically owned and the fares were this high the surplus generated by a Municipal Bus Company would be, in its entirity transferred to the council's or central government's coffers.

A Bus company is not a computer company.


Oh and for the record the wired line I am currently using for this internet conection is a copper loop installed by British Telecom prior to privatisation so was not installed by the private sector.
 

SS4

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Largely it's because they can whether due to lack of competition or lack of PTE authority (or their collusion). Their fares in the West Midlands within the nbus zone are staying much the same
 

martinsh

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1) they can get away with it because a good proportion of travellers are ENCTS pass holders, thus paying nothing themselves, and just get on the first bus that comes

2) my local route into town (about 1.5 miles) has a choice of Arriva or an independent operator. Fares Arriva £2.00 (and going up next week), independent £1.55.

3) about 2 years ago First put up their local fare in Stafford (they only have 1 route there) from £1.15 (the First local fare elsewhere) to £.170 (the same as the Arrvia fare). Nuff said ?
 

WestCoast

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1) they can get away with it because a good proportion of travellers are ENCTS pass holders, thus paying nothing themselves, and just get on the first bus that comes

On the particular Liverpool South Parkway to Airport journey that jcollins mentions, I suspect that the proportion of pass holders is somewhat lower and more cash fares are taken.
 

northwichcat

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I have boarded NX at bus stops (literally) rather than coach stations though, which perhaps explains why the driver has just looked at the e-ticket.

That might be what makes a difference. If 3 people are booked to board at one stop then the driver will easily notice if 4 people turn up and two of them try to use copies of the same ticket without having to check against a list. If it's 30 people boarding though then it's a different matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They can't. End of.

Back home, 14 years ago - i.e. before the Arriva named first appeared - a one stop single would cost 30p. The same journey now costs something like £1.30. This may not sound that much against some other areas, but Southend has long had cheap-ish bus fares - until recently. Fares have probably gone up 60% in 5 years.

Saying that you've just reminded me of something.

When North Western buses (now part of Arriva) took over a company called Star Line Travel who operated in the Knutsford and Altrincham areas drivers starting appearing on routes having no idea what the fares were, so passengers were telling them the fares and if no-one knew they made up a fare.

That's probably why a lot of larger companies introduced the simple single fare or day ticket, which has made the short journeys very expensive even if you make as many journeys as you like within an area for something like £4 a day.
 
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