How far is 60 minutes?

[Darandio]

Maybe I misread, but it somebody said Google maps is checked and that travel times vary greatly depending on the time of day.

Ah yes, I see what you mean now.

 

[skyhigh]

Maybe I misread, but it somebody said Google maps is checked and that travel times vary greatly depending on the time of day.

Google maps will give you an expected range of journey duration for whatever time of day you select. For me to my depot it shows 25 mins at 5am, or 30-45 mins at 5pm. They'll pick an off peak and peak time to see roughly how long it'll take.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If you had 10 applicants who were all perfectly matched on their application and assessments but the only difference was the varying distances they lived from the depot. You could rank them in order of fatigue risk and then score each applicant. The furthest away would lose out because they posed the highest risk and the other applicants become the preferential candidate.

It isn't so much about excluding those who are "willing" to relocate but other applicants just come out better. The application process is notoriously ruthless and as an employer with an huge pool to pick from; you can cherry pick.

When all applicants are all judged using the same criteria then the process is 'fair'

Exactly. The reality is, it's a captive audience, and these things stand out as frankly sensible ways to sift applicants out at an early stage.

Even beyond sifting, It makes sense to take the people forward who live the closest if they're equal in terms of other criteria. Even if someone is happy to relocate, this isn't without its risks.

I do totally understand and I have not lived in the UK for 20 years so I accept I am out of touch. Also my situation is I suppose fairly unique. First of all an employer was willing to relocate me and my family across an ocean and go to all the expense of H1 visas and Green Card. In the early days of the USA my commute was just accepted. I suppose the laws of supply and demand is working well. I had not realized the talent pool was so large in the UK and so employers could be very choosy. Sorry folks.

 

[ComUtoR]

I do totally understand and I have not lived in the UK for 20 years so I accept I am out of touch. Also my situation is I suppose fairly unique. First of all an employer was willing to relocate me and my family across an ocean and go to all the expense of H1 visas and Green Card. In the early days of the USA my commute was just accepted. I suppose the laws of supply and demand is working well. I had not realized the talent pool was so large in the UK and so employers could be very choosy. Sorry folks.

No reason to apologise. The system can look very unfair from the outside and when compared to other industries. The fairness comes from treating every applicant the same. The problems with recruitment is that the applicants aren't always honest. If any employer agrees to recruit and ignores where someone lives then they then have to accept the consequence. The railway is in a unique position. Not just the supply and demand aspect but the safety aspect has a huge impact on recruitment.

 

[YingYing]

Presuming that the private car is going to be the most common way of getting to work, how many TOCs provide staff parking? I'd imagine staff based at City centre stations may struggle to find free parking. I know Grand Central provide staff parking in Sunderland, but it's quite a way from Sunderland Station!

I read on here recently that XC has an arrangement with a local multi storey car park in Manchester (Or might have been Brum, off memory) for staff parking

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not just the supply and demand aspect but the safety aspect has a huge impact on recruitment.

Indeed. I suppose after the Great Heck anniversary this weekend when someone was grossly over tired (of course in this case the road user not any railway folk) , a great though sad reminder just how important this is.

 

[TheVicLine]

If you get confused about whether you live within an hour of the depot then maybe a job where you need to work independently and think for yourself isn't for you.
Surely if you are applying for the position you know how long it would take you to get there.

 

[DriverEight]

If the TOC/FOCs are so committed to preventing driver fatigue, surely regular shift patterns, rest days and start times would be better? As someone that worked odd shifts for most of my life, I know that this has a much greater impact on my fitness to drive than the length of my commute does.

 

[Stigy]

If the TOC/FOCs are so committed to preventing driver fatigue, surely regular shift patterns, rest days and start times would be better? As someone that worked odd shifts for most of my life, I know that this has a much greater impact on my fitness to drive than the length of my commute does.

You can’t run a railway with regular shift patterns and start times unfortunately (well, you probably could, but it’s more difficult with the operational Raiway such as Guards and Drivers).

Fatigue will always be an issue, but it’s all about limiting the risk of being fatigued. It’s well within a TOC/FOCs ability to dictate how far one should reasonably be expected to commute to/from work, it’s not within their ability to have staff working several weeks’ worth of consistent shifts. In fact, it would probably cause fatigue if nothing else, having staff do the same job several times on the trot, rather than mixing it up a bit.

Railway workers get regular rest days and don’t generally work more than 40hrs in a week. “Hidden” was introduced to reduce staff fatigue, which dictates the maximum hours you’re allowed to work in a week amongst other things. As an industry, I’d say the railway is probably one of the best at taking fatigue seriously and learning from past mistakes.

You’ll never get rid of fatigue, and anyone who has small children will know that fatigue is simply a way of life that just needs to be managed as best as possible. There are ways of managing fatigue, and one simple one is ensuring after your 10hour shift you aren’t expected to drive 63minutes to your home address.

 

[DriverEight]

You can’t run a railway with regular shift patterns and start times unfortunately.

Fatigue will always be an issue, but it’s all about limiting the risk of being fatigued. It’s well within a TOC/FOCs ability to dictate how far one should reasonably be expected to commute to/from work, it’s not within their ability to have staff working several weeks’ worth of consistent shifts. In fact, it would probably cause fatigue if nothing else, having staff do the same job several times on the trot, rather than mixing it up a bit.

Railway workers get regular rest days and don’t generally work more than 40hrs in a week. “Hidden” was introduced to reduce staff fatigue, which dictates the maximum hours you’re allowed to work in a week amongst other things. As an industry, I’d say the railway is probably one of the best at taking fatigue seriously and learning from past mistakes.

You’ll never get rid of fatigue, and anyone who has small children will know that fatigue is simply a way of life that just needs to be managed as best as possible. There are ways of managing fatigue, and one simple one is ensuring after your 10hour shift you aren’t expected to drive 63minutes to your home address.

You could easily run a railway with regular shift patterns and start times, but only if someone was willing to pay for it. Trains run to regular shift patterns so planning staffing levels could be easy....with more staff! The reason for the irregular shifts is companies trying to squeeze as much work as possible out of as few employees as possible. You can always find people that want permanent early starts, permanent late finishes, permanent weekends. You can employ people part time to fill in the gaps and have casual workers for emergencies, usually semi-retired staff that want to slow down a bit without losing perks or pension. Of course, the cost of this would be astronomical, so it would never happen.

 

[Stigy]

You could easily run a railway with regular shift patterns and start times, but only if someone was willing to pay for it. Trains run to regular shift patterns so planning staffing levels could be easy....with more staff! The reason for the irregular shifts is companies trying to squeeze as much work as possible out of as few employees as possible. You can always find people that want permanent early starts, permanent late finishes, permanent weekends. You can employ people part time to fill in the gaps and have casual workers for emergencies, usually semi-retired staff that want to slow down a bit without losing perks or pension. Of course, the cost of this would be astronomical, so it would never happen.

Indeed, far easier and makes far better business sense to mitigate fatigue in other ways. The TOCs/FOCs hold all the cards here. They can be as picky as they like and if people don’t want to work for them, well, just don’t apply.

Why would they bother amending their current ‘60 minutes rule’ when they have thousands of applicants well within that distance?

 

[DriverEight]

Indeed, far easier and makes far better business sense to mitigate fatigue in other ways. The TOCs/FOCs hold all the cards here. They can be as picky as they like and if people don’t want to work for them, well, just don’t apply.

Why would they bother amending their current ‘60 minutes rule’ when they have thousands of applicants well within that distance?

The reality is they could probably cut the 60 minutes to 15 minutes, and still fill each post 10 times over. It would almost certainly have a negative on the amount of talent available though, so they have to compromise. Are there any TOC/FOCs that allow more or less than 60 minutes?

 

[Stigy]

The reality is they could probably cut the 60 minutes to 15 minutes, and still fill each post 10 times over. It would almost certainly have a negative on the amount of talent available though, so they have to compromise. Are there any TOC/FOCs that allow more or less than 60 minutes?

I think to allow up to 60mins is sensible and more than reasonable to be fair. I’d not want to drive for 60mins before or after a shift. I do appreciate however that 60mins is often a worse case scenario and it can take a lot less time in reality.

I don’t know of any who allow over 60mins, but some are 45mins. This is only for safety critical workers mind you. I do know of people moving house to outside 60mins for some TOCs though, and they don’t seem to bothered once you already work for them (maybe they just don’t check the distance when you tell them you’ve moved or are moving?).

 

[221129]

they don’t seem to bothered once you already work for them

However can and will use it against you in an incident.

 

[Stigy]

However can and will use it against you in an incident.

Agreed. Quite easy to do if imagine too.

 

[387star]

The reality is they could probably cut the 60 minutes to 15 minutes, and still fill each post 10 times over. It would almost certainly have a negative on the amount of talent available though, so they have to compromise. Are there any TOC/FOCs that allow more or less than 60 minutes?

I don't know of any however people slip through the net
At one well known London area DOO TOC Drivers were commuting to London from places like Ramsgate

 

[OldNick]

I used to cycle to work when I worked for a TOC previously, took about 25 mins. On days I got punctures (sometimes a couple a week...) and had to walk it took a lot longer. Those days were agony, and it was the absolute last thing I wanted to do after working 10 hours for my tenth day on the trot (with overtime/RDW, not a safety critical role).

Best ever commute I had was a 7 minute walk door to door.

I know which I'd prefer if I was driving trains!

 

[Undiscovered]

Everything on the railway is minuted- x minutes to book on, x minutes to read late notices, x minutes to walk to train etc..

If you book on a minute late you still need to allow all those minutes before working a train. So, either the train leaves a minute late, which means, cumulatively, it misses its path at a major junction, or a spare man works your job while you prepare for a chat with the boss about your lateness.

TOCs really don't need to take that risk.
I think (maybe) everyone on here can give an example of when they've been relieved of part of a job because of lateness by a tiny- 1 2 minutes- margin. The railway is very risk averse and has spare capacity built in to it, but why put it under pressure every time someone who lives 59minutes away is due to start a shift?

 

[TheAnswer89]

If you had 10 applicants who were all perfectly matched on their application and assessments but the only difference was the varying distances they lived from the depot. You could rank them in order of fatifue risk and then score each appliant. The furthest away would lose out because they posed the highest risk and the other applicants become the preferential candidate.

It isn't so much about excluding those who are "willing" to relocate but other applicants just come out better. The application process is notoriously ruthless and as an employer with an huge pool to pick from; you can cherry pick.

When all applicants are all judged using the same criteria then the process is 'fair'

It’s all true, but at the same time there are many trainees that actually got a job they had to relocate for. Its not like you cannot get the job if you need to relocate for it.

 

[Adlenviro]

What would the consequences be if after 15 years service you moved. Say you lived across the road from your depot then moved 75 minutes away.

 

[ainsworth74]

What would the consequences be if after 15 years service you moved. Say you lived across the road from your depot then moved 75 minutes away.

What does your contract of employment say? If it's silent on the matter doubt there's much they can do to be honest.

Edit: Though see @221129's good point below as well.

 

[221129]

What would the consequences be if after 15 years service you moved. Say you lived across the road from your depot then moved 75 minutes away.

If you had an incident then you'd probably be thrown under the bus tbh.

 

[Joliver]

It may be seem unfair the whole 45/60 minutes from your home depot but I think they have it spot on.

I live a 45 min drive (30ish miles) from my depot (drive into London). To be honest, I wouldn't want it to be any more. Getting up at 2.30am for a 4am book on isn't great and also having to drive that home tired, after a late shift at 2am etc. As others have mentioned also, starting/finishing in peak times whacks on another 20-30 minutes. It may seem not to be an issue for people trying to get into the grade. You'll soon think differently though.

 

[route101]

I suppose you could move to a city or area with driver recruitment, take up a non railway job in meantime and apply when something comes up. That wouldn't everyone though and relying on postions.

 

[DriverEight]

I suppose you could move to a city or area with driver recruitment, take up a non railway job in meantime and apply when something comes up. That wouldn't everyone though and relying on postions.

Yeah, move to somehere that gives you lots of options. Stoke on Trent puts you within 60 minutes of Manchester, Crewe, Birmingham, Derby and Nottingham. At a push, you can add Liverpool and Leicester too.

A recent advert for drivers at South Eastern stated you must live within 40 minutes driving time of your chosen depot, or 40 minutes travelling time by public transport if applying for London Victoria.

 

[craigybagel]

When towards the end of my training I started doing my 265 hours of handling with a DI, my first experience of all day every day train driving, I was shocked as to how tired I was when I got home each day. And despite coming into the role with several years of experience of other railway shift jobs under my belt, it's still the most physically tiring job I've ever had - and I still sleep like a baby most nights.

And I'm saying this as someone who's drive to work takes longer than the subsequent walk from the car park to the booking on point! (I'd walk to work but the streets on the way are not the safest at the end of a late shift).

Do not underestimate just how tiring this job can be. It might look easy, but it wears you out. Do you really want to add 2 hours or more of car driving on top, every day?

 

[DorkingMain]

You could easily run a railway with regular shift patterns and start times, but only if someone was willing to pay for it. Trains run to regular shift patterns so planning staffing levels could be easy....with more staff! The reason for the irregular shifts is companies trying to squeeze as much work as possible out of as few employees as possible. You can always find people that want permanent early starts, permanent late finishes, permanent weekends. You can employ people part time to fill in the gaps and have casual workers for emergencies, usually semi-retired staff that want to slow down a bit without losing perks or pension. Of course, the cost of this would be astronomical, so it would never happen.

Different TOCs seem to have different attitudes towards this. At SWT it was very common for crew to do permanent lates or permanent earlies, either through a mutual swap arrangement or a fixed roster.

The problem there, of course, was that everyone wanted earlies or nights, and so the mixed links ended up heavy on lates and there was a long waiting list to get a permanent swap if you wanted earlies. The mixed links essentially existed to force people to do lates because they'd otherwise be massively short of staff for them.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

There is a view that same shifts for all is the only fair way

 

[richw]

It may be seem unfair the whole 45/60 minutes from your home depot but I think they have it spot on.

I also see it quite reasonable. If working a 10 hour duty or more would anyone really want a 60 min commute either side.
I used to do an hours commute each way to an office job as we moved to be closer to Ex wife’s employment, and I wouldn’t want to do it again. Change the 9-5 office to a job where fatigue is a common factor due to shift patterns and it sounds ten times worse.

 

[craigybagel]

Different TOCs seem to have different attitudes towards this. At SWT it was very common for crew to do permanent lates or permanent earlies, either through a mutual swap arrangement or a fixed roster.

The problem there, of course, was that everyone wanted earlies or nights, and so the mixed links ended up heavy on lates and there was a long waiting list to get a permanent swap if you wanted earlies. The mixed links essentially existed to force people to do lates because they'd otherwise be massively short of staff for them.

There is a view that same shifts for all is the only fair way

At my TOC people with permanent swaps remain in the same link as everyone else so it doesn't impinge on any other driver. It does mean that it's not a perfect swap (for example, drivers on permanent lates in my link still have to do one week of earlies in the duration of the link) but it's still a massive improvement for drivers who prefer one type of shift over the other. The biggest issue is finding someone to agree to permanent lates since as you say, permanent earlies tends to be the more popular option.