How knowledgeable are ticket offices?

[defitzi]

I often traverse the Uk and decide on a whim to stay awhiles . If I do does anyone know what are the chances that if i got to a station and ask what the cheapest fare from point A to point B (sort of a wee excursion) or even a round trip (yes-I DO do know there are railcards. rovers and the like) but I'm talking about just journeying:like maybe decide to go someplace, maybe stay in a hotel overnight or for a couple of days and return-not necessarily by the same route.
It is likely I would get good answers without having to go to a major station with a big enquiry office -which negates the whole exercise.
In other words-how well are smaller ticket offices genned up or able to gen up of the latest and best (within say, 24 hrs) fares-available offers?
In France, they will try to give you what the computer says -frequently there I have to tell ticket clerks there IS a cheaper/ different route available and demand they input my routing into the computer.
Last time I saved 26 Euros (and three hours!) by going from Montchanin to Paris via Dijon -all on TER- and the old Main Line to Paris when the computer tried to send me around the opposite way, via Nevers and the TEAC fast line.Another beauty ws Dijon-Parios TGV quite long wait and station change in Paris then TGV to Reims- when there is a twice daily direct non- TGV priced Corail connection, 1/8th the distance, circa three hours longer and a mere fraction of the combined 2 tgv routes priceing.
Rheims (which ironically IS on the old, now TEAC route to Strasbourg) has only a branch-connection to the TGV.
That's my experience of provincial station booking in France- is it anything like this in UK -better or worse?
In my young days any decent sized station in Ireland could have given you the far to any UK station, the route and the cost-on the spot and I recall it was pretty much the same in the UK.
So:what's it like nowadays? Or do I need to spend hurs on the net preplanning everything.
And with the help of all youse extremely knowledgable forum inputters-honest, no irony here.I
I really AM mind-blasted since I found this forum and discovered just how much people do seem to know about rail travel (and other matters) in the UK! And how helpful folk really are!
For which-much thanks, Horatio (quote Hamletomewhere in Act 1).

 

[Pumbaa]

Generally, its extremely hit and miss. If the clerk is old school, ie schooled by BR and not during privatisation, they can be very helpful. Unfortunately, modern monkeys may not have a clue. Obviously larger station travel centres you'll have better luck, and at the smaller stations they should be able to be helpful if not travelling too far.

You may be best off asking in our ticketing section!

PS I have an inkling it's I:v, just after the encounter with the ghost of his father.

 

[trickyvegas]

I can certainly can vouch for helpfulness of staff at both Stalybridge and Hebden Bridge stations. Normally happy to look at splitting tickets at boundaries to save money or suggesting discount schemes such as Northern Rail's Duo.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is very hit and miss, but I don't believe the stereotypical divide of BR/TOC is correct. I am TOC trained, but I don't believe the BR trained clerks I have met are a patch on me when it comes to ticketing. Equally the majority of other TOC trained clerks I have met do follow the saying, 'you pay peanuts, you get monkeys'.

I think the line is drawn where the clerk either has some form of interest in the railway, or takes pride in his/her work. I would stress though, that those who don't have either of these tend to gravitate towards smaller stations. However, I would also add that those of the APTIS era (pre 2003) tend to know more than the computer age (post 2003) clerks because they had to know things, they couldn't just click a few buttons and there it all is.

Basically, it is very hit and miss.

 

[theblackwatch]

Basically, it is very hit and miss.

I agree, there seem to be good staff and useless staff. Do the railways/TOCs ever employ 'mystery shoppers' to buy tickets and check things are been done correctly? If not, maybe it's time they did!

 

[jon0844]

I think there's also the issue of whether someone at a particular station is likely to need those skills or has ever been called upon to use them before. If the ticket seller only sells the same tickets over and over, they're not likely to have the knowledge that people at a larger station may have - and know about certain ticket combinations through previous experience.

Of course, the thing that separates the men from the boys is if they know how to check up the best prices and combinations when asked - even if it's the very first time. It may of course take a bit longer, hence why some will try and fob you off or say they can't issue those tickets there.

I've had this fobbing off before, and it's a PITA because even if you kick up a fuss - you're still not going to get anywhere anyway.

 

[150219]

I agree, there seem to be good staff and useless staff. Do the railways/TOCs ever employ 'mystery shoppers' to buy tickets and check things are been done correctly? If not, maybe it's time they did!

Yes, mystery shoppers do exist.

 

[jon0844]

But what do mystery shoppers check?

I'd guess the most complex things they try and catch staff out on are things like groupsave!

 

[Ivo]

I can tell you that in this area most offices are poor. Bath Spa in particular is poor. They do seem to know what they are talking about... when it comes to pondering your motives. There is one guy who seems to be very helpful, but that is offset by the other idiots. One of them isn't even very polite; last time I went to Cardiff I misheard her and said something different to what she expected and thus responded, "ARE... YOU... COMING... BACK... TO-DAY...?"

Elsewhere in the Bristol area, Temple Meads is fair, but only really useful if you can speak to the people in the Advance tickets room. The people there are very knowledgeable and very friendly. I can also vouch for the staff at Cheltenham Spa.

 

[Greenback]

It is very hit and miss, but I don't believe the stereotypical divide of BR/TOC is correct. I am TOC trained, but I don't believe the BR trained clerks I have met are a patch on me when it comes to ticketing. Equally the majority of other TOC trained clerks I have met do follow the saying, 'you pay peanuts, you get monkeys'.

I think the line is drawn where the clerk either has some form of interest in the railway, or takes pride in his/her work. I would stress though, that those who don't have either of these tend to gravitate towards smaller stations. However, I would also add that those of the APTIS era (pre 2003) tend to know more than the computer age (post 2003) clerks because they had to know things, they couldn't just click a few buttons and there it all is.

Basically, it is very hit and miss.

I agree! In my experience, it very much depends on the individual clerk. As you say, if they take pride in their knowledge, or have a genuine interest in the railway, they will be pretty good. Also, offices in busy stations like the one I worked at, may not have the time to keep up to date with any new fares offers on a daily basis.

I agree, there seem to be good staff and useless staff. Do the railways/TOCs ever employ 'mystery shoppers' to buy tickets and check things are been done correctly? If not, maybe it's time they did!

They certainly do! They tend to have set questions to ask, and they also look at the staffing of the office, how clean and well presented it is, how polite the clerk is, whether the clerk has a name badge and says 'Good morning/afternoon' etc. The actual knowledge in terms of tickets and fares is only a small part of the mystery shoppers job! Basically, they will ask for a single/return to wherever (usually somewhere popular and fairly local) and the clerk should ask any relevant questions to determine which ticket is the most suitable, or to ecaplain the choices and let the customer decide.

I can tell you that in this area most offices are poor. Bath Spa in particular is poor. They do seem to know what they are talking about... when it comes to pondering your motives. There is one guy who seems to be very helpful, but that is offset by the other idiots. One of them isn't even very polite; last time I went to Cardiff I misheard her and said something different to what she expected and thus responded, "ARE... YOU... COMING... BACK... TO-DAY...?"

Elsewhere in the Bristol area, Temple Meads is fair, but only really useful if you can speak to the people in the Advance tickets room. The people there are very knowledgeable and very friendly. I can also vouch for the staff at Cheltenham Spa.

It used to be the case that Advance clerks were of higher grade in big stations like Paddington and Bristol. I don;t know if this is still the case, but it would explain why they have a greater knowledge of the system as they will usually be asked for more complicated tickets than 'return to Bath'!

 

[Aictos]

It is very hit and miss, try booking regular tickets like York to Peterborough or Hertford to London, split tickets etc... and the staff at my station are very knowledgeable but ask about sleepers, no one in the area knows anything about booking a berth or seat with a seater and am always referred to use Euston or FSR themselves.

 

[John @ home]

Do the railways/TOCs ever employ 'mystery shoppers' to buy tickets and check things are been done correctly?

The London Travelwatch Fares & Ticketing Committee meeting on 18 February decided to commission a mystery shopping exercise to check whether TfL and TOCs are obeying the rules on ticket gates being left open when unattended.

TfL and ATOC were most insistent that ticket barriers must always be left open when unstaffed, even for a very short period. In response to sustained questioning, they said that a staff presence in an adjacent ticket office was not good enough, staff must be actually at the gate line. Both the Chair of London Travelwatch and the Chair of its Fares & Ticketing Committee said that was in direct contradiction to their personal experience, and the Committee decided on the spot to commission a mystery shopping exercise

Draft minutes are not yet on the web but will appear here in due course.

 

[Hager98]

How do i find out the different fare boundaries?

 

[transportphoto]

I have heard stories about Ticket Window staff at stations around Birmingham (mainly LM) about tickets like Networkersand Railcards always baffled them and it took them a while to issue them - htey would get there about an hour.

Also when they go in for Advance fares on VT from New Street to Euston or Edinburgh (and intermediate station stops) that always took them a while too.

For onward tickets / odd requests* well that is another story!


* By odd requests I mean buying a ticket from A -> B without buying a ticket to get to A!

 

[the sniper]

I have heard stories about Ticket Window staff at stations around Birmingham (mainly LM) about tickets like Networkersand Railcards always baffled them and it took them a while to issue them - htey would get there about an hour.

Also when they go in for Advance fares on VT from New Street to Euston or Edinburgh (and intermediate station stops) that always took them a while too.

For onward tickets / odd requests* well that is another story!

Hmm... Well I'd say it's like the countries ticket offices as a whole, it's a mixed bag. I know most of the station staff that work on the North Cross-City line in Birmingham, a good few of them I'm on first name terms with. I'd say about 20% of them are rail enthusiasts and revel knowing the system inside out, 35% aren't rail enthusiasts but are good at their job and will do what they can to get you a good deal if your friendly to them, the remaining 45% are sufficient for selling normal tickets but wouldn't/couldn't do much more then that in a reasonable amount of time, if at all.

(As a random side note, I've found that only the rail enthusiasts and about 10% of non-rail enthusiast can carry out anything but the most basic of functions on TRUST.)

Between ex-BR and newer TOC employees, I'd say apart from the rail enthusiasts (who came in under TOCs), the ex-BR guys are more willing to find you a good deal, though to be fair, it's quite evenly balanced.

 

[barrykas]

But what do mystery shoppers check?

I'd guess the most complex things they try and catch staff out on are things like groupsave!

From http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/previous-press-releases?action=view&newsID=52 (August 2009):

ATOC conducts an annual comprehensive national mystery shopping survey every year for the Department for Transport, which is undertaken by a third party organisation. This is a regulatory requirement.

The most recent survey, conducted between May and September 2008 by GfK NOP, involved 7,500 station shopping exercises, 600 internet shopping exercises and 2400 telesales shopping exercises.

The overall results for our 2008 survey showed a 99.1% accuracy rate. The internet and telesales surveys involved different scenarios, covering the full range of common ticket requirements. In the case of the internet exercise, the accuracy rate was 100%, whilst for the telesales exercise the rate was 98.7%.

If memory serves, the "station" Mystery Shopping exercises comprise in the region of 20 scenarios with TOCs getting feedback on which scenarios they've passed and failed on, which may or may not be fed back to staff at the stations concerned.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[jon0844]

With results like that, it seems very likely that nothing particularly taxing was ever asked.

Of course, no ticket seller must look up and offer a combination of tickets when you ask for a ticket to X, Y or Z. So, unless they volunteer the information through knowledge, or you ask (having asked on something like this forum) then you will be offered the normal 'Simple' range of tickets.

 

[route:oxford]

The point of mystery shopping isn't to trick the staff with really obscure enquiries - all that they will do in those cases is look up the computer on their desk for the answer.

It's all about delivering polite high standards for "normal" travel requirements. Using my experience as a mystery shopper for shops, banks & restaurants, I'd expect the following to be on the shoppers list...

Were there BTP staff on site? Did they look friendly and approachable?
Was the station clean and tidy?
If surfaces are wet, are warning signs in place?
How many automatic ticket machines are there, are they all operational?
How many ticket windows are open?
How many people are ahead of you in the queue?
How long did you have to wait?
Did the member of staff smile and make eyecontact?
Detail your interaction with the member of staff.
Did they wear a name badge?
Could you read it?
Did the member of staff give you a cheerful farewell?
Are the arrivals & departures screens clear and legible?
How many ticket gates are there?
Are they all operational?
Are they attended?
Do the staff look friendly and approachable?

 

[142094]

Any idea on how to become a mystery shopper for the railway?

 

[jon0844]

The point of mystery shopping isn't to trick the staff with really obscure enquiries - all that they will do in those cases is look up the computer on their desk for the answer.

I know that, which is why mystery shopping doesn't really mean that much - besides spotting the other things you mention.

I don't suggest getting rid of them (it's a cost effective way for management to get employees 'self police' themselves), but there might be an additional grade of testing added for certain locations where more complicated requests are made.

 

[route:oxford]

Any idea on how to become a mystery shopper for the railway?

Just apply to the various MS companies. They tend to keep quiet about who they do work for until you join, even then you have to do a lot of reports on pubs & coffee shops with the only benefit being a refund for a basic drink before you get the really good paid jobs though..

The best jobs (best paid) are always snapped up very quickly. £100 payment last month for taking out a personal loan in a bank (immediately cancelled by their head office, but a credit reference record is retained). All very covert with mini camera digital video camera recording the progress of the loan interview.

Good fun, but not for making a living.

 

[Ivo]

Couldn't we conduct a random experiment along the lines of "mystery shopping" among ourselves? Everyone nominates a few staffed stations, of varying sizes (so I might choose Bradford-on-Avon, Bristol Parkway and Bristol TM, for instance) and asks a couple of questions of the staff at the stations in question, varying in difficulty (ranging from the simple "Could you tell me about the ALR please?" to the more complex "Could you detail how I would get to [insert obscure and distant station here, ideally one with an odd spelling that you claim to be unable to spell] and the best options for price please?"). Then we pool the results, and...

 

[transportphoto]

Good Idea - Maybe Scotland to one of those long Welsh destinations in the highland lines. Using a station not with direct services to London / Birmingham / South Coast (via XC & Conn). Maybe going a bit mad and using a SailRail fair inquiry / FGW Sleeper bookings in Scotland (if possible).

 

[jon0844]

But not when there's only one ticket window open and there's a queue behind you!!

 

[transportphoto]

See how quick they want you away from the window - how they deal with the pressure.
Quite frankly overall you are a customer - so are the others in the Q - we should all be equal.

 

[CarterUSM]

That is all very well, but the customer surely would have some common decency to allow people travelling immediately to purchase their travel documents first. Especially at peak time. I'm getting the impression here that you really only want to catch out the staff to show off your own superior knowledge and make it as difficult as possible. I do hope that isn't the case and I mean no offence either. The vast majority of staff in my experience both in and out of the railways really will help to the best of their ability. There is also a significant minority who will not, as we know though.

 

[yorkie]

It's a good idea but rather than make it overly complex, ask for relatively simple requests, but which are sometimes denied, for example:

- ask for a ticket from a different origin station (easy to do but not always done - and a requirement for them to issue it)
- ask if there are any restrictions on a particular ticket (e.g. are there any evening peak restrictions on the return portion of a X to Y ticket?)
- ask what the cheapest ticket to do a particular journey at a particular time is (e.g. what is the cheapest ticket to do X to Y travelling at xx: xx?)
- ask for an excess fare

These should all be relatively quick, not look as if you are trying to 'catch people out' and are tickets that many people will require. Asking for obscure tickets will be more time consuming, achieve less, and not really help anyone.

So I'd say yes but it must be done sensibly, and I'd also say you should really buy some tickets.

 

[323235]

That is all very well, but the customer surely would have some common decency to allow people travelling immediately to purchase their travel documents first. Especially at peak time. I'm getting the impression here that you really only want to catch out the staff to show off your own superior knowledge and make it as difficult as possible. I do hope that isn't the case and I mean no offence either. The vast majority of staff in my experience both in and out of the railways really will help to the best of their ability. There is also a significant minority who will not, as we know though.

From a personal perspective I'm not trying to catch anyone out, i'm just trying to get the best deal I can legitimately get. Is that so wrong for passengers or consumers to want?

For example if I'm going from Poynton- Norwich and coming back the same day, why pay the Saver Return Price of £60 when I can split at various stations along the EMT route Nottingham,Grantham and Peterborough and save a whopping 50%!

 

[CarterUSM]

Of course, i'm not saying you should pay that. You know it is less expensive thus you ask for it, though many people won't. We all know the fares and ticketing scenario could do with a significant overhaul too, and as i've mentioned before, I am more than willing to give passengers on my services the best possible deal also. What yorkie suggests above is ideal, as these are scenarios that can cause confusion to certain staff as it's outwith the 'norm', even though it is not really hard to do. I think going in all guns blazing with an over complicated fares scenario is just not representitive of a typical transaction at a ticket office. Though I think you would certainly get a ticket(s) of some description.

 

[yorkie]

For the issue of splitting fares, there's no way you can expect the clerk to offer a split ticket combination (indeed if you told ATOC that stations were offering combinations without any prompting, that could get people into trouble for trying to help us!!), however the issue is that if you ask for a combination, you must be sold it. I have heard a few reports that at a small number of places, combinations of tickets are refused, and this is absolutely unacceptable. So asking for a split ticket combination is a good idea to check that you are sold it. Asking to a journey and seeing if they offer a split achieves nothing as that benefits no-one.

I heard that Huddersfield ticket office were refusing to issue excesses and refusing to issue combinations of tickets. The reports were completely independent of each other, from different (but reliable) sources. So I'd start with them. King's Cross is another troublesome place, particularly with Grand Central and excesses. I've heard bad reports from them, again from completely different people on different occasions, but asking for a manager resolved both problems there.

When the reports of NXEC not being impartial toward GC were reported, I put them to the test at York. I simply asked which train was the cheapest for walk-on travel to London, and they told me it was the Grand Central (one was due), I asked if it was cheaper to buy before boarding or if I could pay the same fare on board. They correctly said it was the same price on board. I thanked them and left the ticket office. It took just a few seconds and achieved the result I wanted, and I was able to state here that, whatever was said about King's Cross being awkward, York station were adhering to the rules of impartiality So that was good for everyone all round.

I always buy GC tickets on board now, to give them the commission and to exercise the right that some people wish to deny us But York ticket office is very good. All ticket offices should be of that standard.