WesternLancer
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 7,196
Best hold on to all official paperwork like that for 6 years....
Did Pacers have ticket bins or am I imagining it?
I got as far as the toilets, no problems. Just asked nicely if I could be allowed through the barriers to use the facilities. Normally one asks to be let out of the barriers to use facilities (or have a smoke).I'd suggest that for any station with either gateline or any other sort of ticket check, the area beyond that point is in reality a compulsory ticket area. Try getting past it without either a travel ticket or a platform ticket and see how far you get.
well, it did spin off from a rather interesting case of a poor passenger who has ended up, IIRC, with a criminal conviction + hefty fine for throwing his £2.50 ticket away as he stepped off the train...A thread devoted to how long to keep your ticket?! This forum certainly covers a wide range of questions.
I would suggest that you must keep your ticket until your journey is complete, which to me means that you leave finally railway premises (ie land ownership, not station barrier or building, it may be the end of the station approach road) having got off the last train of your trip.
Sorry, that is completely rubbish advice. How far is some distance? Does it depend on the station? If 200m is recommended, for example, then that would imply that some people would have to keep tickets while in their house, and only dispose of them when they intended going more than 200m from their house without using a train. There are at least 6 properties opposite Crayford station within 200m of the entrance.Best advice I got given by an RPI was to keep your tickets on you until you have exited the station and some distance away.
Sorry, that is completely rubbish advice. How far is some distance? Does it depend on the station? If 200m is recommended, for example, then that would imply that some people would have to keep tickets while in their house, and only dispose of them when they intended going more than 200m from their house without using a train. There are at least 6 properties opposite Crayford station within 200m of the entrance.
That's going to be awkward *if* RPI staff are specifically looking out for passengers seen to be discarding their rail ticket(s) into a litter bin on exiting the platform / compulsory ticket area.I think what he meant was don't throw your ticket in the bin just outside the station entrance, wait till you are at home, work, or in town shopping for example. I have heard of RPIs collaring people outside of stations in the past who have been watched.
I think what he meant was don't throw your ticket in the bin just outside the station entrance, wait till you are at home, work, or in town shopping for example. I have heard of RPIs collaring people outside of stations in the past who have been watched.
Whether that is true is irrelevant. Why is there a problem putting a ticket back in a pocket and walking away once past the gateline? It's a very small price to pay to avoid any problems.Once I have actually left railway premises an RPI would not have any legal basis to stop me, would they? I could simply walk away and ignore them.
BTP by contrast presumably would have that legal basis.
I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).
When I buy anything in a supermarket, the receipt goes in the bag with the shopping or if only one or two items, in my pocket.I've always considered the security guard booth to be the "ticket barrier", and it to be normal to put the receipt in the first bin encountered after that.
I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).
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Happened to me. Self checkout didn't wouldn't print a recept.nor did it
I have had the alarm go off after I chose not to have a receipt printed at the self checkout. If it had been an employee rather than a contracted out security guard who had stopped me I would have given them an earful about how the checkout should have alerted me to the fact that a tag needed removing. I always take a receipt now (and no longer buy t shirts from that supermarket).The law relating to supermarkets is different and cannot really be compared to the railway.
In a supermarket a security guard (or any other member of staff for that matter) cannot stop someone unless they have seen an the item be selected, continuously monitored the person while they are in the shop and passed the final point of payment. Security guards can ask for a receipt if alarms sound but you are under no legal obligation to show one.
On the railway you must produce a ticket when requested to do so by an authorised person. If you do not do so you have committed an offence.
This is not an opinion that 'some would argue'; this is the law.Some would argue that you are still on your journey and should retain your ticket until you have left railway premises
From a ticketing point of view you can "leave the station" but still be on railway premises. I can't see how you are required to have a ticket valid for travel when you are on the publicly-accessible part of a station (such as in the booking office; in the car park; or on the forecourt). What was the definition of "having left the station" in this judgement?This is not an opinion that 'some would argue'; this is the law.
Bremme v Dubery, 1964, established that in law you are "travelling on the railway" after having alighted the train and before having left the station.
Was that the case where the defendant got on the London Underground, without a ticket, at South Kensington, travelled to Bank, and when challenged at the exit barrier, claimed he'd entered the system at Holborn and offered to pay from there.This is not an opinion that 'some would argue'; this is the law.
Bremme v Dubery, 1964, established that in law you are "travelling on the railway" after having alighted the train and before having left the station.
From a ticketing point of view you can "leave the station" but still be on railway premises. I can't see how you are required to have a ticket valid for travel when you are on the publicly-accessible part of a station (such as in the booking office; in the car park; or on the forecourt). What was the definition of "having left the station" in this judgement?
Was that the case where the defendant got on the London Underground, without a ticket, at South Kensington, travelled to Bank, and when challenged at the exit barrier, claimed he'd entered the system at Holborn and offered to pay from there.
That supports what I said earlier then: when you are "railside" you need a ticket; when you are not, you don't.In Bremme, the defendant was behind the barrier so the precedent doesn't touch that.
I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).
As the store will, undoubtedly, have the means of checking the transactions at the self-service terminal and CCTV I regard the receipt as having nothing more than nuisance value.This is a good point; I always binned my receipts, but after being stopped once walking out without a receipt for a bottle of wine early on in the times after disposable plastic bags were banned (luckily the person manning the SS tills vouched for me), I do keep them in my back pocket until I remember to dispose of them later.
As the store will, undoubtedly, have the means of checking the transactions at the self-service terminal and CCTV I regard the receipt as having nothing more than nuisance value.