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How much longer will social distancing go on for in the UK?

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MikeWM

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When did we class first lockdown (if it even was that) as having been? Second lockdown was fairly unambiguous as 05 Nov to 02 Dec but first lockdown was a bit wishy-washy.

I'd say 26th March [1] until 31st May. That was the period when 'no person may leave the place they are living without reasonable excuse' was in force.

[1] Despite the PMs address on the 23rd, and the text messages that were sent on the 24th, the regulations didn't come into force until the 26th.
 
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Huntergreed

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How long will lockdown last in the UK? It's hard to tell at the moment. I have a few predictions:

1st March England will return to the tier system, majority will be in tier 3, some places will be in tier 4 (very high infection rates), and if very lucky, a few places may be in tier 2.

Scotland and Wales will probably do this around 15th March to look 'safer' for political reasons, Scotland will return to level 3 nationwide (which, unlike England, makes it illegal to travel unless essential).

Gradual working down the tiers as more and more people are vaccinated and the seasons change so the pressure on the NHS will continue to drop.

I would imagine summer will be restricted, but not heavily (masks will remain to give people 'confidence', although I would hope these would only be recommended rather than mandatory, distancing will probably remain for a good while yet).

Compete lifting of restrictions around roughly the same time as the adult population have all been vaccinated (start of Autumn) and return to 'normal' around September.

Three main barriers to this:

1) Very misguided people calling out for 'ZERO-COVID' even with a vaccine who will not accept the end of lockdown until elimination (which is impossible at this point), this should be a small minority and they should be ignored fully by policymakers.

2) Potential of a vaccine-resistant variant, although I am confident that the risk of this causing another year of lockdowns and economic suicide are very low

3) The media and public placing too high an emphasis on cases rather than NHS pressure causing measures to be retained to reduce transmission even though this is arguably pointless as NHS capacity can cope regardless of restrictions.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Cases down again today to 20k and using yesterdays cases and test data we have a positivity rate below 5%. We also know that hospitalisations rate will respond 2-3 weeks in arrears so by 15th Feb all metrics will be trending down even from a high base. So there should be siren calls from CRG to pushback on restrictions and I reckon Whitty knows this as at tonight's briefing he says the ONS survey says things aren't as good on cases so already finding alternative means to find a reason not to change anything.
 

takno

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How long will lockdown last in the UK? It's hard to tell at the moment. I have a few predictions:

1st March England will return to the tier system, majority will be in tier 3, some places will be in tier 4 (very high infection rates), and if very lucky, a few places may be in tier 2.

Scotland and Wales will probably do this around 15th March to look 'safer' for political reasons, Scotland will return to level 3 nationwide (which, unlike England, makes it illegal to travel unless essential).

Gradual working down the tiers as more and more people are vaccinated and the seasons change so the pressure on the NHS will continue to drop.

I would imagine summer will be restricted, but not heavily (masks will remain to give people 'confidence', although I would hope these would only be recommended rather than mandatory, distancing will probably remain for a good while yet).

Compete lifting of restrictions around roughly the same time as the adult population have all been vaccinated (start of Autumn) and return to 'normal' around September.

Three main barriers to this:

1) Very misguided people calling out for 'ZERO-COVID' even with a vaccine who will not accept the end of lockdown until elimination (which is impossible at this point), this should be a small minority and they should be ignored fully by policymakers.

2) Potential of a vaccine-resistant variant, although I am confident that the risk of this causing another year of lockdowns and economic suicide are very low

3) The media and public placing too high an emphasis on cases rather than NHS pressure causing measures to be retained to reduce transmission even though this is arguably pointless as NHS capacity can cope regardless of restrictions.
I'm more optimistic about the situation in Scotland for two reasons. Firstly Devi Sridhar doesn't seem to be enjoying the same level of access to the Scottish Government as was the case in spring and summer last year. Secondly, there's an election coming up, and politically it's far better to be able to say "because of the sacrifices we so prudently forced you to make last year, we are now able to unwind the restrictions in Scotland 48 hours or so earlier than in England"

No comment on Wales, because whatever games Drakeford is playing they don't appear to be political
 

Scotrail12

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I'm more optimistic about the situation in Scotland for two reasons. Firstly Devi Sridhar doesn't seem to be enjoying the same level of access to the Scottish Government as was the case in spring and summer last year. Secondly, there's an election coming up, and politically it's far better to be able to say "because of the sacrifices we so prudently forced you to make last year, we are now able to unwind the restrictions in Scotland 48 hours or so earlier than in England"
Agreed - I think that the election is a key point to remember when considering Sturgeon's strategy. She's played politics a lot already in this so I would not be at all surprised if she actually released restrictions earlier just to be different and make herself look better than England.
 

MikeWM

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If we followed the *exact* same pattern as we did the first time around, and we assume daily deaths peaked early last week (as currently seems likely), then you'd expect:

- lockdown ('you must stay at home') to end around March 8th
- shops to reopen around March 22nd
- pubs etc. to reopen around April 12th.

But who knows?
 

Bishopstone

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If we followed the *exact* same pattern as we did the first time around, and we assume daily deaths peaked early last week (as currently seems likely), then you'd expect:

- lockdown ('you must stay at home') to end around March 8th
- shops to reopen around March 22nd
- pubs etc. to reopen around April 12th.

But who knows?

The difference this time is that the Government says schools will re-open before other sectors. If we take them at their word, then consider when education might re-open and add another three weeks for the retail re-opening, because they’ll go for a phased approach.

So I’d put both shops and pubs about a month later than your estimate.
 

initiation

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If we followed the *exact* same pattern as we did the first time around, and we assume daily deaths peaked early last week (as currently seems likely), then you'd expect:

- lockdown ('you must stay at home') to end around March 8th
- shops to reopen around March 22nd
- pubs etc. to reopen around April 12th.

But who knows?
This is a really good comparison and shows how far we have come - people are talking about leaving pubs closed until May or even longer. That would be more severe than the original lockdown.

If schools do open in March, I can see shops opening closer to Easter. Hospitality will be punished again not being open until end of April/early May.

Compete lifting of restrictions around roughly the same time as the adult population have all been vaccinated (start of Autumn) and return to 'normal' around September.
As i've noted before, one barrier could be related to this point. If we get to September with some restrictions still present there will be strong calls to leave them in place as winter will only be just around the corner. For this reason, I believe if all restrictons have not gone by mid August, we have them until 2022.
 

duncanp

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If we followed the *exact* same pattern as we did the first time around, and we assume daily deaths peaked early last week (as currently seems likely), then you'd expect:

- lockdown ('you must stay at home') to end around March 8th
- shops to reopen around March 22nd
- pubs etc. to reopen around April 12th.

But who knows?

I think schools will reopen partially around the time the stay at home order is lifted, so around the second week of March. It may be that each pupil only goes to school for one or two days per week to start off with, with full reopening not until after Easter.

#moderator note: some responses to the schools question have been moved to this thread

Something will reopen around the anniversary of the first lockdown. I have read about a government proposal to put all of England straight into Tier 2 when the lockdown is lifted.

So it may be that non essential shops and pubs reopen at the same time on March 23rd or March 30th, with appropriate restrictions.

Or it may happen that shops reopen on March 23rd, and pubs reopen shortly after Easter.

I suspect the deciding factor will be exactly how low case numbers are in the first half of March.
 
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Yew

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The difference this time is that the Government says schools will re-open before other sectors. If we take them at their word, then consider when education might re-open and add another three weeks for the retail re-opening, because they’ll go for a phased approach.

So I’d put both shops and pubs about a month later than your estimate.
You seem to forget the millions of vaccines we're administering, now over 10% of the adult population, isn't this the land we were promised where all restrictions were removed?
 

DorkingMain

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One thing I've noticed in the news today is that the cinema release latest James Bond film which was originally scheduled for late last year but then put back to April 2021, has now been put back again until 8th October 2021. Is this a clue that this nuisance social distancing is expected to drag on all the way until October??!! I really hope not. We need to start getting this country back to normal way before then!
I suspect we won't be totally restriction free until the latter half of the year, no. If the current trajectory is that all adults won't have been offered a vaccine until September, I can't see COVID restrictions totally disappearing before then. However, I'm willing to suffer mask-wearing / token efforts at social distancing if we can actually get back to doing things. Things were not that bad in July / August last year, when it seemed like we might have seen the back of all of this.
 

brad465

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A tad pessimistic no? Even if out idiotic government did ban it, if every other country in the world opens up how long do you think such a ban would last here?
There would also be major resentment by super rich private jet owners if they couldn't fly anywhere, or in particular if they were and the rest of the population wasn't then there'd be very serious trouble.
 

DorkingMain

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A tad pessimistic no? Even if out idiotic government did ban it, if every other country in the world opens up how long do you think such a ban would last here?
If we manage to vaccinate our population much more quickly than everywhere else, I suspect the problem will end up being other countries still being locked down, rather than us.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

As i've noted before, one barrier could be related to this point. If we get to September with some restrictions still present there will be strong calls to leave them in place as winter will only be just around the corner. For this reason, I believe if all restrictons have not gone by mid August, we have them until 2022.
I can't see what justification there would be for doing so if the entire population has been vaccinated.
 

bramling

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How long will lockdown last in the UK? It's hard to tell at the moment. I have a few predictions:

1st March England will return to the tier system, majority will be in tier 3, some places will be in tier 4 (very high infection rates), and if very lucky, a few places may be in tier 2.

Scotland and Wales will probably do this around 15th March to look 'safer' for political reasons, Scotland will return to level 3 nationwide (which, unlike England, makes it illegal to travel unless essential).

Gradual working down the tiers as more and more people are vaccinated and the seasons change so the pressure on the NHS will continue to drop.

I would imagine summer will be restricted, but not heavily (masks will remain to give people 'confidence', although I would hope these would only be recommended rather than mandatory, distancing will probably remain for a good while yet).

Compete lifting of restrictions around roughly the same time as the adult population have all been vaccinated (start of Autumn) and return to 'normal' around September.

Three main barriers to this:

1) Very misguided people calling out for 'ZERO-COVID' even with a vaccine who will not accept the end of lockdown until elimination (which is impossible at this point), this should be a small minority and they should be ignored fully by policymakers.

2) Potential of a vaccine-resistant variant, although I am confident that the risk of this causing another year of lockdowns and economic suicide are very low

3) The media and public placing too high an emphasis on cases rather than NHS pressure causing measures to be retained to reduce transmission even though this is arguably pointless as NHS capacity can cope regardless of restrictions.

The trouble isn’t I think so much the media focus on cases, but on deaths. No doubt we’ve all seen the wall-to-wall news coverage of today’s 100,000 “grim milestone”. In practice we all knew it was going to come, but the news coverage today really has been alarmist - for example a newsreader in tears on Sky just now.

I think the 100,000 milestone has possibly hit Boris as I suspect he privately knows that this is “game over” for him in the medium term. It was written all over his face today.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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The trouble isn’t I think so much the media focus on cases, but on deaths. No doubt we’ve all see the wall-to-wall news coverage of today’s 100,000 “grim milestone”. In practice we all knew it was going to come, but the news coverage today really has been alarmist - for example a newsreader in tears on Sky just now.

I think the 100,000 milestone has possibly his Boris as I suspect he privately knows that this is “game over” for him in the medium term. It was written all over his face today.
Absolutely media love a bad news story and they flogged it not even any credence to cases and admissions falling but tomorrows a new day.

BoJo knows how to play the audience and not to have looked sombre at the presso wouldn't have gone down well. As usual the majority of journalists wanted to be judge and jury and ask loaded questions - he was never going to admit they've done anything wrong.

Things are going in the right direction and my view is things are more balanced in terms of some relaxation come mid Feb and better BoJo keeps tight lipped as the more we squeeze it down the more latitude he has got.
 

brad465

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The trouble isn’t I think so much the media focus on cases, but on deaths. No doubt we’ve all see the wall-to-wall news coverage of today’s 100,000 “grim milestone”. In practice we all knew it was going to come, but the news coverage today really has been alarmist - for example a newsreader in tears on Sky just now.

I think the 100,000 milestone has possibly his Boris as I suspect he privately knows that this is “game over” for him in the medium term. It was written all over his face today.
Do you mean "possibly hit"? How he leaves office is a big question mark as there are two factions who want him out for different reasons: if he goes because too many have died and the overall handling has been shambolic in the "everything done late/half hearted" sense, he'll probably resign on his own accord once the vaccine rollout allows most if not all restrictions to be lifted. If however he doesn't lift them quick enough for the CRG's liking and the fallout from all this becomes very apparent while Johnson is still in charge, his departure will more likely be through "resign or we'll kick you out" from his own party.

From a deaths' perspective I don't think there's much more that, for a while at least, can now be viewed in similar light to today; above 100,000 landmarks are fewer and further between (I'd say 150,000 is next), and the peak death rate appears to be coinciding with the 100k, so if it's all going down from here any "alarmist" media reporting will be plainly obvious.
Things are going in the right direction and my view is things are more balanced in terms of some relaxation come mid Feb and better BoJo keeps tight lipped as the more we squeeze it down the more latitude he has got.

The peak in infections was on the 8th January, so by virtue of the "deaths within 28 days of a positive test, they'll be falling by the 5th February at the latest, but as 28 days is the end point, not the start point, they may well fall earlier, but the rate could well be falling rapidly in the week or two leading up to the mid-February review, given how rapidly it appears to be dropping right now.
 

takno

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The trouble isn’t I think so much the media focus on cases, but on deaths. No doubt we’ve all see the wall-to-wall news coverage of today’s 100,000 “grim milestone”. In practice we all knew it was going to come, but the news coverage today really has been alarmist - for example a newsreader in tears on Sky just now.

I think the 100,000 milestone has possibly his Boris as I suspect he privately knows that this is “game over” for him in the medium term. It was written all over his face today.
Hopefully now that grim milestone has passed we'll get a bit less focus on deaths for a couple of weeks
 

DorkingMain

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Do you mean "possibly hit"? How he leaves office is a big question mark as there are two factions who want him out for different reasons: if he goes because too many have died and the overall handling has been shambolic in the "everything done late/half hearted" sense, he'll probably resign on his own accord once the vaccine rollout allows most if not all restrictions to be lifted. If however he doesn't lift them quick enough for the CRG's liking and the fallout from all this becomes very apparent while Johnson is still in charge, his departure will more likely be through "resign or we'll kick you out" from his own party.

From a deaths' perspective I don't think there's much more that, for a while at least, can now be viewed in similar light to today; above 100,000 landmarks are fewer and further between (I'd say 150,000 is next), and the peak death rate appears to be coinciding with the 100k, so if it's all going down from here any "alarmist" media reporting will be plainly obvious.


The peak in infections was on the 8th January, so by virtue of the "deaths within 28 days of a positive test, they'll be falling by the 5th February at the latest, but as 28 days is the end point, not the start point, they may well fall earlier, but the rate could well be falling rapidly in the week or two leading up to the mid-February review, given how rapidly it appears to be dropping right now.
An interesting point on the note of dropping case numbers - a lot of people were claiming the drop in case numbers was a temporary lag due to fewer people getting tested as a result of snow etc.

However, a few websites such as the Guardian's UK coronavirus page list the number of tests taken and the percentage positive. When we were getting 70,000 new cases per day, the percentage returning positive was about 10%. For 25th January, the positive test rate was just 4%.
 

brad465

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An interesting point on the note of dropping case numbers - a lot of people were claiming the drop in case numbers was a temporary lag due to fewer people getting tested as a result of snow etc.

However, a few websites such as the Guardian's UK coronavirus page list the number of tests taken and the percentage positive. When we were getting 70,000 new cases per day, the percentage returning positive was about 10%. For 25th January, the positive test rate was just 4%.
I do wonder if increasing immunity in the population is now coming into play too: we know from the ONS that around 10% of the population had antibodies at that time, and that's not included all those getting infected between Christmas and the early January infection peak, plus now all the vaccinations are coming into effect, where 2.4 million first does were administered by the 10th January, which should now be taking effect; in the first week of February the effects of 4 million doses cumulative take hold plus any further immunity gained from infections past the peak. Each parameter here won't offer much immunity, but it all adds up to reducing infection rate potential.
 

duncanp

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Hopefully now that grim milestone has passed we'll get a bit less focus on deaths for a couple of weeks

I am finding the focus on deaths that was all over the news last night and this morning to be a bit one sided.

You would almost think the broadcast media had an agenda to criticise the government.

Whilst every single death is regrettable, it would have helped to lift people's mood yesterday if they had also mentioned the fall in the number of new cases per day, the fall in hospitalisations, the fall in test positivity and the progress of the vaccination program, especially when compared to Western Europe.

These figures are all moving in the right direction, and give hope that we will be back to something resembling normality later this year, even if we don't quite know when.
 

Class 33

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Also at the press conference yesterday, Whitty said there will be a lot more deaths over next few weeks. And Sky News put "Professor warns there will be a lot more deaths over the next few weeks" as Breaking News on their website. With 1,631 deaths yesterday it's plainly obvious there will be a lot more deaths over the next few weeks! Deaths aren't going to suddenly vanish! So why they bothered mentioning that as news I don't know. But the growth in daily deaths has slowed down over the past couple of weeks. Yesterday the 7 day rolling average was only 5.1% higher than this time last week. It's looking likely that within the next 7 days the daily deaths will finally start heading south. And when it does, it will continue in that direction. It won't be heading up north again!
 

duncanp

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Also at the press conference yesterday, Whitty said there will be a lot more deaths over next few weeks. And Sky News put "Professor warns there will be a lot more deaths over the next few weeks" as Breaking News on their website. With 1,631 deaths yesterday it's plainly obvious there will be a lot more deaths over the next few weeks! Deaths aren't going to suddenly vanish! So why they bothered mentioning that as news I don't know. But the growth in daily deaths has slowed down over the past couple of weeks. Yesterday the 7 day rolling average was only 5.1% higher than this time last week. It's looking likely that within the next 7 days the daily deaths will finally start heading south. And when it does, it will continue in that direction. It won't be heading up north again!

Precisely.

Deaths are a lagging indicator, in that they reflect the number of new cases and hospitalisations in the past.

As new cases and hospitlalisations are finally falling, deaths will surely follow.

So by the time of the lockdown review, all the figures should be heading in the right direction, and you may some easing of restrictions in late February or early March.
 

chris11256

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I do remember this kind of focus last time, as cases start coming down the media always turns to focus on deaths instead.

Also the The Sun & Daily Mail are reporting that Boris will outline this roadmap out of lockdown at the mid February review.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13860966/boris-johnson-road-map-out-of-lockdown-vaccines/
BORIS Johnson is preparing to unveil his road map out of lockdown by mid-February - as Britain is now on course to vaccinate 30 million people by March.
Government sources hint the PM's ambitious blueprint is likely to include crucial targets concerning the roll out of coronavirus jabs, falling numbers of infections and the reopening of some schools.
Although it's not really any massively new information. The 'sources' talk about cases and deaths needing to come down and the vaccine rollout going as planned.
 

kristiang85

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Also interesting to note that usually when we talk about virus deaths, it is done on an annual basis either by calendar year (Jan to Dec) or by season (Sept to Aug).

For COVID death statistics it is everything since the beginning, which helps make it look far worse. If we just went for the normal season and stated numbers since September, then we'd be look at around 60k so far. This is much more in line with the worst flu winters in the last 20 years.

Also note these are of course "deaths from any cause with a positive test in the last 28 days". So looking at excess deaths is the better number. Whilst this looks similar (99k), 2/3 of the excess deaths were in the first peak in spring. So we are looking at probably 40k deaths this winter so far mostly from COVID (of course there might be a rise in other deaths too from the year of lockdowns, but this won't be known for a while - the annual Cancer stats that get released in July will be an interesting read).
 

MikeWM

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I am finding the focus on deaths that was all over the news last night and this morning to be a bit one sided.

You would almost think the broadcast media had an agenda to criticise the government.

I have a very long list of things I blame the government for. But I'm categorically *not* going to blame them for people dying during a pandemic of a new respiratory virus. A lot of our modern problems are down to thinking the government should be doing things that really aren't the job of government at all, while not holding it to account for those things that are.

Though given that they gave the impression that they could prevent people dying, and have resulted to ludicrous methods to try to do so and failed, I don't have a lot of sympathy either. They should have been honest all along that this was something they couldn't control by diktat.

But the growth in daily deaths has slowed down over the past couple of weeks. Yesterday the 7 day rolling average was only 5.1% higher than this time last week. It's looking likely that within the next 7 days the daily deaths will finally start heading south. And when it does, it will continue in that direction. It won't be heading up north again!

Actually better than that if you look at the numbers by day of death - the peak looks to have been early last week. (I've mentioned this before, but for the best analysis of all the figures I recommend following @cricketwyvern on twitter).
 

Class 33

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I do remember this kind of focus last time, as cases start coming down the media always turns to focus on deaths instead.

Also the The Sun & Daily Mail are reporting that Boris will outline this roadmap out of lockdown at the mid February review.

Although it's not really any massively new information. The 'sources' talk about cases and deaths needing to come down and the vaccine rollout going as planned.

Yes Johnson did mention in the News Conference yesterday that he'd publish some sort of roadmap out of lockdown and restrictions, within the next few weeks. This should give us some more confidence when this is publish/announced, that things will get better over the next few months or so.
 

duncanp

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Yes Johnson did mention in the News Conference yesterday that he'd publish some sort of roadmap out of lockdown and restrictions, within the next few weeks. This should give us some more confidence when this is publish/announced, that things will get better over the next few months or so.

No doubt there will be a lot of speculation about what this roadmap will contain, and a lot of lobbying by various groups about what should open and when.

Expect to hear from locktivists and SAGE scientists about how we can't possibly reopen <pick a setting of your choice> until <pick a random month of your choice> because it is not "safe".

It was reported a few weeks ago that the government is considering moving the whole of England straight from the current restrictions in Tier 2, possibly with some amendments to what is allowed in Tier 2, such as limited household mixing and pubs not required to serve substantial meals or close at 10pm. Only time will tell whether this is true or not.

I wouldn't mind betting that there is a significant easing of restrictions around the anniversary of the first lockdown, because this is a psychologically important date. I would expect pubs and restaurants to be open some time in advance of the elections at the beginning of May.

All in all though, I am feeling more optimistic than I was at the beginning of this month.
 

6862

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Yes Johnson did mention in the News Conference yesterday that he'd publish some sort of roadmap out of lockdown and restrictions, within the next few weeks. This should give us some more confidence when this is publish/announced, that things will get better over the next few months or so.

But what are the chances he'll stick to anything in the road map? I'd say pretty close to zero.
 
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