How much to save a class 58

[al.currie93]

Hmm, DBS recently sold Colas a number of 60s - all quite possibly in better condition than their 58s - which, if the railways are run as a business to make money, was basically selling quite valuable assets to the competition. Reading this got me wondering why no 58s were put up with them, if the arguments for keeping the 58s are based on avoiding assets going to the competition.

I know that they're different locomotives to the 60s (more akin to 66s, which probably actually makes them less valuable to DBS than the 60s that were sold), but unless they just thought that they were too clapped out to sell then I can't think why they didn't put them up for sale with the 60s.

But anyway, I reckon that the best chance a 58 has of being on the rails again is if Colas buy them to stop having to lease 66s. Which, before people comment and not considering what I would do if it were up to me, I don't think is very likely.

 

[richieb1971]

The class 58 preservation group aren't really updating their website or moving ahead with their goal of getting their unit up and running.

 

[Temple Meads]

The class 58 preservation group aren't really updating their website or moving ahead with their goal of getting their unit up and running.

As you want to see 58's in preservation perhaps you could ask them if they require any help? Preservation projects don't just need money, they need the volunteer labour too.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The class 58 preservation group aren't really updating their website or moving ahead with their goal of getting their unit up and running.

Their loco is at Barrow at the moment but from what I've read might be moving to Leicester where the class 56's are based.

 

[richieb1971]

I would consider it moving to Leicester a really good thing. They don't hang about down there.

I am 100 miles away from Barrow. Not exactly a daily commute. Leicester is nearer but the place is like Fort Knox. Can't see myself getting in there lol.

Would like the website up and running again with some updates. If they need money I don't mind donating a token amount.

 

[cj_1985]

Their loco is at Barrow at the moment but from what I've read might be moving to Leicester where the class 56's are based.

NOT Barrow. Barrow Hill

 

[Alistair G.]

im pleased to see this got some serious discussion.

just moving the posts back a little, somebody mentioned DRS and that why would they only want to overhaul 1...... well, what would limit them just one.

i agree, from a business sence if youve got to train drivers and mechanics in the machienery then having a one of loco is not really much use to anyone, but there are plenty of 58's knocking about and i dare say that some are probably in a better condition than some of their 37's/47's and 20's. of which they dont have a huge pool of any particular class, but enought to obviously make it worth their while

i think with the 68's arriving that the days of "heritage" traction at DRS may be coming to an end, but i still dont see why a firm (DRS, DCR, Colas as an example) couldnt buy a small fleet of them to make it wirth while going for a project. must still plenty of spare parts to rob from the more knackered unservicable ones?
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As you want to see 58's in preservation perhaps you could ask them if they require any help? Preservation projects don't just need money, they need the volunteer labour too.

Sadly i am probably the furthest thing from mechanically minded/gifted so im not sure what help i could be to a group. do they need someone to just make the brews??

 

[455driver]

There is no work for the 58s (it is done by the 66s some of which are stored) so why overhaul locos which you don't need and nine of your drivers sign, the 58s might well be in better condition (unlikely after being thrashed senseless in Spain with zero maintenance) but there simply is no need for them and with the 66s being stored/sent abroad there wont be any work for them any time soon.

Why cant people take their rose tinted spectacle off and look at it from an accountants point of view!

 

[CosherB]

im pleased to see this got some serious discussion.

just moving the posts back a little, somebody mentioned DRS and that why would they only want to overhaul 1...... well, what would limit them just one.

i agree, from a business sence if youve got to train drivers and mechanics in the machienery then having a one of loco is not really much use to anyone, but there are plenty of 58's knocking about and i dare say that some are probably in a better condition than some of their 37's/47's and 20's. of which they dont have a huge pool of any particular class, but enought to obviously make it worth their while

i think with the 68's arriving that the days of "heritage" traction at DRS may be coming to an end, but i still dont see why a firm (DRS, DCR, Colas as an example) couldnt buy a small fleet of them to make it wirth while going for a project. must still plenty of spare parts to rob from the more knackered unservicable ones?

I think you've answered your own question. DRS are retiring 47's now that the 68's are here, to the point where there are very few 47's in regular use. 20's are used on seasonal duties / flasks / rail tours, so used as a reserve fleet essentially. 37's will soldier on as there is no other decent Type 3 available (and certainly no new replacements), especially the 37/4's with ETS.

If DRS wanted 58's, even if DBS wanted to sell them, I think it would have happened already. I very much doubt there is a business case to revive a micro fleet of 58's in the UK.

 

[Emblematic]

The only use I can see for them is for construction trains for HS2 (basically the same use they were put to in Spain.) You want something that's useable, but not got much residual value, so you can leave it parked up until you need it, and not worry too much about keeping it in good nick. If there are 60s, or even 66s lying idle and available, they might get used instead (66s doubtful, as they are generally too useful and, let's face it, still being built, so they will find buyers abroad.) Personally I think the 58 is a purely functional machine of no aesthetic value whatsoever, and if it's use as a locomotive is over, then it is literally neither of use nor ornament and should be scrapped. I cannot think why anyone would feel the need to preserve more than one.

 

[flimflam]

Hmm, DBS recently sold Colas a number of 60s - all quite possibly in better condition than their 58s - which, if the railways are run as a business to make money, was basically selling quite valuable assets to the competition. Reading this got me wondering why no 58s were put up with them, if the arguments for keeping the 58s are based on avoiding assets going to the competition.

I know that they're different locomotives to the 60s (more akin to 66s, which probably actually makes them less valuable to DBS than the 60s that were sold), but unless they just thought that they were too clapped out to sell then I can't think why they didn't put them up for sale with the 60s.

But anyway, I reckon that the best chance a 58 has of being on the rails again is if Colas buy them to stop having to lease 66s. Which, before people comment and not considering what I would do if it were up to me, I don't think is very likely.

Colas do not lease any locomotives except the ten class 70s, all other locos in their fleet are owned outright, including the class 66s.

As for buying class 58s, there would need to be a solid business case for buying them. Simply put, there isn't and in any case they would require a lot of money spending on them to bring them up to standard again - which would just make them as they were when built, a poor locomotive. To be honest, I can't see them persevering with the 56s much longer either. For the traffic they have currently, the 60/66/70 traction they operate is perfectly adequate, and the 56s are already being used less and less. This is mainly due to reliability problems so far as I can see, plus no doubt maintainance and fuel costs come into it. 56s were never cheap options. I would be prepared to bet that further class 60 and 70 purchases are on the cards for Colas, along with several more 37s.

 

[al.currie93]

Colas do not lease any locomotives except the ten class 70s, all other locos in their fleet are owned outright, including the class 66s.

As for buying class 58s, there would need to be a solid business case for buying them. Simply put, there isn't and in any case they would require a lot of money spending on them to bring them up to standard again - which would just make them as they were when built, a poor locomotive. To be honest, I can't see them persevering with the 56s much longer either. For the traffic they have currently, the 60/66/70 traction they operate is perfectly adequate, and the 56s are already being used less and less. This is mainly due to reliability problems so far as I can see, plus no doubt maintainance and fuel costs come into it. 56s were never cheap options. I would be prepared to bet that further class 60 and 70 purchases are on the cards for Colas, along with several more 37s.

Oh yes, they do own their 66s - just consulted the rail guide - thanks for pointing that out! In that case I can't see any business case for buying or selling the 58s either, sadly.

More 37s and 60s would be nice to see if there's a use for them, but they better not stop using the 56s or my model railway will be even more out of date :P

 

[snakeeyes]

would a refurbished 58 not be a better loco then the rebuilt 73's for the sleepers?

 

[alexl92]

would a refurbished 58 not be a better loco then the rebuilt 73's for the sleepers?

I'm not an expert but 58s are a type 5 freight locomotive. They'd have to have ETS fitted and be re-geared for better acceleration... but also 58s are Route Availability 7 whereas 73s are RA6.

The 73s on the sleeper are for hauling the Fort William section which has some weaker bridges - the 67s are severley speed-limited over these, so I imagine the 58s would be the same.

Putting my rose-tinted spectacles back on... yes please!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

With the last batch of 66's due, if anyone still needs to increase their motive power it's going to be interesting to see what they use being that there is currently no suitable replacement that fits the UK loading gauge and conforms the EU emissions regulations.
I have been saying for years that a tidied up and possibly re engined fleet of 58's would be perfect for running perhaps T3 type stuff freeing up 66's etc to do the heavier work. Don't see it happening though.

 

[al.currie93]

With the last batch of 66's due, if anyone still needs to increase their motive power it's going to be interesting to see what they use being that there is currently no suitable replacement that fits the UK loading gauge and conforms the EU emissions regulations.

That is also a good point - if anyone needs to increase their motive power that is. I shall amend my former statement to "no business case for buying or selling the 58s yet" :P

 

[CosherB]

With the last batch of 66's due, if anyone still needs to increase their motive power it's going to be interesting to see what they use being that there is currently no suitable replacement that fits the UK loading gauge and conforms the EU emissions regulations.
I have been saying for years that a tidied up and possibly re engined fleet of 58's would be perfect for running perhaps T3 type stuff freeing up 66's etc to do the heavier work. Don't see it happening though.

Not a cat in hells chance - that's throwing good money after bad. Far better to try and prise more 60's out of DBS with dozens of them still parked up in the UK, and that's going to be at least as difficult as getting any 58's.

 

[richieb1971]

Would like to see some 60's from Toton on the mainline again. I saw 6E38 being pulled by a 66 with a 60 in tow the other day. Hopefully it was not faulty.

 

[RichmondCommu]

would a refurbished 58 not be a better loco then the rebuilt 73's for the sleepers?

Have you considered stand up comedy as a career?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Wouldn't a class 60 be easier to re-egnine (if needed) then a class 58 given the unusual body profile of class 58s?

Is there much traffic (if any left) that uses pairs of class 20s coupled together (not top & tailing a train), if there is would that be better suited to class 58s? If there isn't then there's no way that I can't see of the class 58s going to the scrapyard

 

[Boothby97]

I saw 6E38 being pulled by a 66 with a 60 in tow the other day. Hopefully it was not faulty.

60021 had failed the previous day, so the train was running a day late with 66847 used to drag the empty tanks and the 60 back to Lindsey. 60021 I believe is now back at Toton.

 

[CosherB]

Wouldn't a class 60 be easier to re-egnine (if needed) then a class 58 given the unusual body profile of class 58s?

Is there much traffic (if any left) that uses pairs of class 20s coupled together (not top & tailing a train), if there is would that be better suited to class 58s? If there isn't then there's no way that I can't see of the class 58s going to the scrapyard

I think you're falling into the trap of finding solutions to problems that don't exist.

Why do Class 60's need new engines?
Class 20's are being used as a reserve pool by DRS - there are only two currently in active service with them.
How does a pair of Type 1 locos with a combined power output of 2,000hp, that were built in the 60's compare with a single Type 5 with 3,300hp built in the 80's? You're not comparing apples with apples!

 

[Emblematic]

With the last batch of 66's due, if anyone still needs to increase their motive power it's going to be interesting to see what they use being that there is currently no suitable replacement that fits the UK loading gauge and conforms the EU emissions regulations.
I have been saying for years that a tidied up and possibly re engined fleet of 58's would be perfect for running perhaps T3 type stuff freeing up 66's etc to do the heavier work. Don't see it happening though.

I hope that we have enough large diesels now, and the future will be with designs like the Class 88, using the electric network more extensively and short tripping on the small diesel. These already meet stage IIIB emissions, not difficult with this size of engine. I think a IIIB compliant heavy haul locomotive is far from impossible, it's just that everyone filled their boots with the existing designs when allowed, and there hasn't - to date - been a large order to cover the design costs.

 

[snakeeyes]

was thee not a rail tour a few years ago that a 58 got up to 100mph?
Is it possible to fit EHT to a 58?

 

[NSEFAN]

was thee not a rail tour a few years ago that a 58 got up to 100mph?
Is it possible to fit EHT to a 58?

That loco wasn't doing 100mph it was doing a "very good 80".

Seriously though the machines aren't rated for doing a ton. They are designed for MGR trains which no longer exist. A class 67 or 68 is much better suited to passenger workings than a 58. Why retrofit ETH to an unsuitable loco when you could buy a newer one which is more suitable and efficient?

 

[Ash Bridge]

was thee not a rail tour a few years ago that a 58 got up to 100mph?
Is it possible to fit EHT to a 58?

That loco wasn't doing 100mph it was doing a "very good 80".

Seriously though the machines aren't rated for doing a ton. They are designed for MGR trains which no longer exist. A class 67 or 68 is much better suited to passenger workings than a 58. Why retrofit ETH to an unsuitable loco when you could buy a newer one which is more suitable and efficient?

Back in 1991 I was fortunate enough to travel from Plymouth Laira - Stockport behind 58027/58041 on the 'Tamar Tart' railtour and they went like a rocket! What I distinctly remember though was on the last leg of the journey on departure from Macclesfield once the train had cleared the curved tunnel at Tytherington the driver really opened them up, I was reaching my bag from the overhead rack at the time, and seriously the acceleration with 6600 bhp. nearly took me off my feet, awesome it was!

 

[GM228]

was thee not a rail tour a few years ago that a 58 got up to 100mph?
Is it possible to fit EHT to a 58?

If you have enough money for the equipment (and provides there's actually room for the bits) then you can basically add ETS to anything with a generator I suppose, of course there is more to it than simply adding the capability.

How reliable it would be and what index it can reach are the problems I suppose.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

was thee not a rail tour a few years ago that a 58 got up to 100mph?
Is it possible to fit EHT to a 58?

I'm not aware of a 58 going that fast, but current standards require new stock whether units/locos/hauled stock to be tested at the intended maximum plus 10%, so if that was the case at the time of their introduction the 58s must be capable of 88mph. Prior to the introduction of OTMR ("black boxes") there were many stories of drivers pushing units and locos to, and beyond, their limitations. 96mph in a 142 was the craziest I've heard, which must've been quite a wild ride!

The "farewell tour" for 58s did involve an ahem, altercation with a buffer stop somewhere in Essex, but I don't believe there were any overspeed incidents.

 

[Emblematic]

If you have enough money for the equipment (and provides there's actually room for the bits) then you can basically add ETS to anything with a generator I suppose, of course there is more to it than simply adding the capability.

How reliable it would be and what index it can reach are the problems I suppose.

With modern electronic components it's quite straightforward to divert some of the traction supply to a regulated stable ETH output. You will likely need some modifications to the traction control but nothing major. It was far more of a problem with the conversation of heritage traction originally fitted with steam heating boilers. This usually meant either fitting additional generator in a place it was never meant to go, or altering the main traction circuit so that some power was permanently connected to ETH, making it unavailable for traction even when no ETH was needed. Given that power was always somewhat less than ideal, it added to the problem of too many underpowered locomotives.

But we'll never get an ETH fitted 58 even were there a mass resurgence of loco-haulage. There's around a hundred class 43s with no obvious future available in less than 5 years, way less work to convert these for any conceivable passenger application.

 

[CosherB]

was thee not a rail tour a few years ago that a 58 got up to 100mph?
Is it possible to fit EHT to a 58?

Oh no, ranking up with "how to re-use a 442" is "a Class 58 doing 100mph". :roll: