How to get people back on trains post COVID-19?

[Baxenden Bank]

It has astonished me how many forum members did not understand the relevant legislation regarding travel despite Yorkie posting it on numerous occasions. Many still believed all the essential travel/key worker rubbish.

From a personal perspective, it's not that I don't know the legislation or regulations, but that the message STILL being heavily pushed by a number of TOCS is significantly more restrictive than that. At the point of travel, especially the return part of any journey, I do not wish to be refused travel because the rail person, having swallowed the management brief wholesale, decides that my journey is not 'key worker absolutely essential'. Perhaps I should wear a business suit or builders PPE 24/7 to avoid my journey being questioned. I do not expect harassment for acting entirely within the law. Time for the overzealous to be wound in.

 

[LowLevel]

I have no reason to believe you would be stopped from travelling. The only thing that is likely to happen, based on the numbers we are seeing today, is that on some train services they might find the crew worksafeing them and walking away if they're too busy to maintain distancing for themselves. That is perfectly acceptable - while it is the passenger's discretion to wedge themselves into a train, it is also the crew's not to do so.

 

[greyman42]

From a personal perspective, it's not that I don't know the legislation or regulations, but that the message STILL being heavily pushed by a number of TOCS is significantly more restrictive than that. At the point of travel, especially the return part of any journey, I do not wish to be refused travel because the rail person, having swallowed the management brief wholesale, decides that my journey is not 'key worker absolutely essential'. Perhaps I should wear a business suit or builders PPE 24/7 to avoid my journey being questioned. I do not expect harassment for acting entirely within the law. Time for the overzealous to be wound in.

If you were refused travel, just ignore the member of staff and get on the train. If the member of staff is that bothered they can go and get the BTP. The BTP would then inform the member of staff that you have every right to travel.

 

[kristiang85]

Someone on Twitter has posted saying an SWR staff member called them out for making a journey that didn't look essential (though judging by the tweet it was), so SWR still seem to be making an issue of it.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Someone on Twitter has posted saying an SWR staff member called them out for making a journey that didn't look essential (though judging by the tweet it was), so SWR still seem to be making an issue of it.

It's after next Saturday you don't want to see tweets like that.
Its kind of understandable at the moment especially as South Western Railway is the main operator at Britain's most controversial beach city (this week at least!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone on Twitter has posted saying an SWR staff member called them out for making a journey that didn't look essential (though judging by the tweet it was), so SWR still seem to be making an issue of it.

Presumably they didn't have the guts to call out the hundreds making bucket and spade journeys to Bournemouth at the weekend.

 

[bramling]

If you were refused travel, just ignore the member of staff and get on the train. If the member of staff is that bothered they can go and get the BTP. The BTP would then inform the member of staff that you have every right to travel.

That isn’t quite guaranteed, as if the member of staff intimates that a passenger has been abusive then they certainly won’t be travelling. That has certainly been used at my place as a way of getting rid of troublesome people.

 

[squizzler]

I was wondering if there is a greater opportunity to run 'event specials' in the near future? Many of the mass market coach operators have recently been would up; there are likely to be fewer trains on the network for the time being, and possibly more leisure happening in the UK if overseas travel remains limited. Seaside specials and mystery tours might be a good way of using trains that might otherwise be idle until regular traffic returns, and perhaps could be run in conjunction with the experienced rail tour operators that already exist?

There is already a scheduled operation being started on the Settle and Carlisle, which slots into the market between day tours and service trains, and I would expect to see more like this.

 

[Huntergreed]

I’ve got a bad feeling that come 4th July the public stigma surrounding trains and public transport is that it shouldn’t be used apart from for essential purposes.

I do believe the messaging on this is (mostly) stopping, but even though the message is stopping, without being told “you’re allowed back on” I fear that the message will still be thought of as essential only, and people will face potential public shaming for using public transport after this date as they already have until now.

 

[route101]

I’ve got a bad feeling that come 4th July the public stigma surrounding trains and public transport is that it shouldn’t be used apart from for essential purposes.

I do believe the messaging on this is (mostly) stopping, but even though the message is stopping, without being told “you’re allowed back on” I fear that the message will still be thought of as essential only, and people will face potential public shaming for using public transport after this date as they already have until now.

Yeah , people have been put off. Im happy to use public transport but others are not.

 

[squizzler]

Look on the bright side. People would avoid busses before the pandemic because they were considered lower class, now they avoid them because of the virus. For transport operators this shift in why people don't want to use the bus is beneficial: there is more likelihood of finding a cure for the virus than there is of finding one for British snobbery!

 

[BJames]

Interesting article this morning, including comments from David Brown, Go Ahead's CEO, who disagrees with the government's messaging:

We understand the cautiousness of politicians but we are very worried that negative public transport messaging will take a long time to recover from. At some point that really has to change, otherwise we will not get people back.”

“We have to start doing traffic demand management, and reducing the cost of the peak.”

“It doesn’t matter what system, or country, we operate in: we need people back on public transport.”

Also:

Shapps said it was “heartbreaking to advise passengers not to use public transport”, but adds: “We want to protect lives and livelihoods and we cannot recommend people go back to using it.”

Other comments include Lilian Greenwood, Nottingham South MP and a member of the Transport Select Committee:

“This is a huge opportunity to get more people walking and cycling – but if traffic levels increase at the rate they are, then all those people getting on their bikes are going to jump off them again because they don’t feel safe.”

“The real risk is that people are going to be put off using public transport long-term because they don’t feel safe – it’s really worrying for the future of public transport and the wider consequences.”

You can see the whole article here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...for-the-uks-deserted-public-transport-network

 

[JonathanH]

I’ve got a bad feeling that come 4th July the public stigma surrounding trains and public transport is that it shouldn’t be used apart from for essential purposes.

I do believe the messaging on this is (mostly) stopping, but even though the message is stopping, without being told “you’re allowed back on” I fear that the message will still be thought of as essential only, and people will face potential public shaming for using public transport after this date as they already have until now.

But the fact is that there is a huge swathe of the population who have absolutely no need to travel now. They have been told not to go to offices and can basically entertain themselves at home with occasional travel to see family.

I have no foreseeable reason to go on any public transport. Other people have more need to use it. No stigma or poor messaging about it - there is simply no justification for people making non-essential journeys to take up the scarce capacity available for essential travel.

 

[yorksrob]

But the fact is that there is a huge swathe of the population who have absolutely no need to travel now. They have been told not to go to offices and can basically entertain themselves at home with occasional travel to see family.

I have no foreseeable reason to go on any public transport. Other people have more need to use it. No stigma or poor messaging about it - there is simply no justification for people making non-essential journeys to take up the scarce capacity available for essential travel.

On the contrary, the Government wants people to generate economic activity. In most cases to do that requires travel and for many that will be public transport.

If the Government is worried about space for essential travel, fine designate some time for essential travel.

There is absolutely no justification for running around empty trains all day or imprisoning people without private transport in their own towns and villages indefinately.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

But the fact is that there is a huge swathe of the population who have absolutely no need to travel now. They have been told not to go to offices and can basically entertain themselves at home with occasional travel to see family.

I have no foreseeable reason to go on any public transport. Other people have more need to use it. No stigma or poor messaging about it - there is simply no justification for people making non-essential journeys to take up the scarce capacity available for essential travel.

You still don't get it, do you? Anyone who wants to can use public transport for any reason they like, essential or otherwise.

And capacity isn't scarce, trains are running around 90 per cent empty!

 

[cactustwirly]

I would also add reservations being added while the train is en-route as being another dubious innovation.
Any coach apart from "C" which I think is the unreserved one, it's a shambles in standard class. Last year travelling from Winchester to Birmingham NS no less than three seats were reserved mid journey in one coach between Basingstoke and Reading. It continued in the same manner to Banbury where I gave up and caught the following Chiltern service.

Oxford to Manchester seems sensible for a reservation, but Banbury to Leamington?? All it does is annoy people who have just found a non reserved seat and those with reservations made 20 minutes before who expect the seat to be vacant.
It used to work much better when the reservation system has failed!

People make these reservations because the trains are so crowded that it's often the only way to get a seat.

 

[JonathanH]

You still don't get it, do you? Anyone who wants to can use public transport for any reason they like, essential or otherwise.

And capacity isn't scarce, trains are running around 90 per cent empty!

Yes, they can. I have read enough of the postings here to know that there isn't any guidance or legislation that suggests otherwise. In no way was I suggesting that people who want to travel shouldn't do so.

I was making the observation that I, personally, have no reason to make any journey using public transport and that there will be others in the same position, no matter how much the OP wants the 'essential travel' mantra to be removed. It is a fact that other people still have more need than me and I should give them priority because at some point, even though some trains are '90 per cent empty' I may encounter one which is at 'capacity'.

 

[squizzler]

But the fact is that there is a huge swathe of the population who have absolutely no need to travel now. They have been told not to go to offices and can basically entertain themselves at home with occasional travel to see family.

Office workers may be going into the town centres less frequently and the elderly might be sheltering at home, so these two groups are a large market but far from representative of everybody. But there is a chance those two groups will return to the network. There is also the small matter that a lot of urban travel has decamped from the local busses and trains to foot and bicycle travel. This last point is to be welcomed, and for many of these people that will be the optimal mode going forward.

It is disappointing that motor traffic is again at 77% the pre-virus baseline. But from the point of view of a transport manager this is a reservoir of new customers from which to replace those they have lost, as soon as they are allowed to actually carry them!

Air quality needs to be stressed as the main benefit of public transport over motoring. Poor air quality makes people more susceptible to C19, as the article states. Maybe the advertising campaign should show an exhaust pipe with a surgical mask on it, as a visual image of how cutting out exhaust pollution helps fight the virus?

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, they can. I have read enough of the postings here to know that there isn't any guidance or legislation that suggests otherwise. In no way was I suggesting that people who want to travel shouldn't do so.

I was making the observation that I, personally, have no reason to make any journey using public transport and that there will be others in the same position, no matter how much the OP wants the 'essential travel' mantra to be removed. It is a fact that other people still have more need than me and I should give them priority because at some point, even though some trains are '90 per cent empty' I may encounter one which is at 'capacity'.

I think we've reached the point where it's up to the individual. I've not touched a train since mid March but I'll probably start again after July 6th. I certainly won't be going near seaside resorts on sunny days but then I didn't do that before Covid.

The definition of capacity varies from TOC to TOC. London Overground seems happy to let people get on as they please. There have been reports on this forum of almost every seat taken on a 378. Meanwhile TFW doesn't want more than 30 people on a class 150. Same with buses. I spoke to a mate in Bristol yesterday that reckons almost every bus passes his stop with "bus full" on the blind. Cardiff Bus just lets people on. I've yet to see a "bus full" sign displayed even though passenger numbers are picking up.

 

[LowLevel]

I think we've reached the point where it's up to the individual. I've not touched a train since mid March but I'll probably start again after July 6th. I certainly won't be going near seaside resorts on sunny days but then I didn't do that before Covid.

The definition of capacity varies from TOC to TOC. London Overground seems happy to let people get on as they please. There have been reports on this forum of almost every seat taken on a 378. Meanwhile TFW doesn't want more than 30 people on a class 150. Same with buses. I spoke to a mate in Bristol yesterday that reckons almost every bus passes his stop with "bus full" on the blind. Cardiff Bus just lets people on. I've yet to see a "bus full" sign displayed even though passenger numbers are picking up.

Ultimately it is up to the passenger whether they wish to board or remain on a busy train. I have a list of revised vehicle optimum capacities in my work phone. If they're exceeded a log must be made with the control and the depot manager emailed with the details to allow the train to be reviewed for mitigation, whether that be reallocation of carriages or similar. Beyond that as long as the train isn't too busy for the crew to undertake their duties without being crowded it'll just carry on. The key phrase is optimum.

 

[DB]

If the TOCs and unions (TSSA particularly) persist with their hostile approach to passengers, and the requirement for masks remains, a hell of a lot of people will be put off using trains. I am one - if I absolutely have to I will use them for work occasionally, but not otherwise. The railways are digging themselves into a hole with their messaging and rules - but will no doubt be surprised if passengers don't return when they decide that the want them back again (which will probably be once the financial responsibility passes back to the franchisees).

If they went back to business as normal, I would go back to using them straight away, but at the moment I'm planning things to avoid travel, and if nothing has changed by the time I have to start travelling more again for work then I'll have to buy a car (already been looking round local second-hand car garriages). If it gets to that stage I won't be going back to the railways again other than occasionally.

I'm not even sure that the current paranoid approach will encourage those who are overly fearful of the virus - many will probably still see public transport as too much of a risk and avoid it.

 

[MikeWM]

I’ve been travelling ‘as normal’ on trains since I restarted on May 24th. No issues (apart from the wretched masking, though so far I’ve not been on a train sufficiently busy that I’ve not been able to ‘chin-mask’

 

[AdamWW]

But the fact is that there is a huge swathe of the population who have absolutely no need to travel now. They have been told not to go to offices and can basically entertain themselves at home with occasional travel to see family.

I have no foreseeable reason to go on any public transport. Other people have more need to use it. No stigma or poor messaging about it - there is simply no justification for people making non-essential journeys to take up the scarce capacity available for essential travel.

That certainly seems to be the view of some TOCs (and some passengers).

But I suspect you don't speak for everyone who can't drive because of age or a health condition, can't afford a car, or never learnt to drive. I would imagine most would think they should be allowed the odd day out somewhere or trip to the shops just like people with cars can. They might even think it's reasonable for them to be allowed to have a holiday.

I wonder how many of the people in TOCs pushing the "essential travel only" rule are themselves confined to their homes because of it?

 

[JonathanH]

But I suspect you don't speak for everyone who can't drive because of age or a health condition, can't afford a car, or never learnt to drive. I would imagine most would think they should be allowed the odd day out somewhere or trip to the shops just like people with cars can. They might even think it's reasonable for them to be allowed to have a holiday.

But I would personally class all of those things as being essential travel for people in that position. Indeed, isn't that why it is appropriate for people who don't need to use public transport to continue to avoid it?

 

[DB]

But I suspect you don't speak for everyone who can't drive because of age or a health condition, can't afford a car, or never learnt to drive. I would imagine most would think they should be allowed the odd day out somewhere or trip to the shops just like people with cars can. They might even think it's reasonable for them to be allowed to have a holiday.

Indeed - plus those like me who can drive and could afford a car, but don't like cars or driving much so try to avoid it. In my case (and no doubt plenty of others), it's now reaching the point where unless things change soon I will be buying a car. In particular the masks issue - I find them extremely uncomfortable, and I do not want to use trains is they are a requirement.

 

[DB]

But I would personally class all of those things as being essential travel for people in that position. Indeed, isn't that justification for people who don't need to use public transport to continue to avoid it?

It should not be up to TOCs (or the government) to try stipulating who can and can't use the trains, or for what purposes they can use them.

 

[AdamWW]

But I would personally class all of those things as being essential travel for people in that position. Indeed, isn't that justification for people who don't need to use public transport to continue to avoid it?

That's not how I would interpret the phrase "essential travel"

 

[AdamWW]

It should not be up to TOCs (or the government) to try stipulating who can and can't use the trains, or for what purposes they can use them.

Personally i think in the current circumstances it's reasonable for the government to have the power to stipulate who can use trains just as they have shut down shops etc. (Though given the amount the country is being opened up, I don't think it's appropriate now to tell people not to use trains, and indeed they don't seem to be doing so).

I don't see how it can be right for TOCs to take a different line when they are being paid to run services on the government's behalf. National Express seems to be encouraging people to travel with them once they re-start services with no messaging about essential services. Of course for them, no passengers=no income.

And how long is the treasury going to be prepared to pay for almost empty trains to operate anyway?

 

[Class 33]

Just been watching the ITV News. And on it, it mentioned "The ban on non-essential travel will be lifted on 4th July.". Excellent. Now that means that come next Saturday, train operators like Northern Rail and ScotRail will have to finally stop it with their "ESSENTIAL JOURNEYS ONLY", "KEY WORKERS ONLY" and "Please don't use our trains to go shopping or for day trips." rubbish. Let's see if that actually happens though.....

 

[yorksrob]

But I would personally class all of those things as being essential travel for people in that position. Indeed, isn't that why it is appropriate for people who don't need to use public transport to continue to avoid it?

That's definitely a more nuanced position (and in my view is more in line with the Government guidance) than Northern, for example, which has apparently been tweeting things like "going shopping is not essential travel" etc.

That said, the "essential travel only" guidance needs to go altogether at the start of July. I don't think we should countenance a situation where Fred Bloggs can take a non essential trip to the continent, but can't hop on a train to Bognor.