How to make a railway network impossible for tourists

[Zoe]

It does make me wonder how we coped when nearly everything was slam doors though.

At Barking I often used to see people running down the stairs and onto moving trains. It's surprising that it was allowed to continue as late as the early 2000s and that no form of CDL was mandated.

 

[PR1Berske]

Slam door trains in 21st century Britain is a sure fire way of confusing tourists

 

[starrymarkb]

Try despatching a load 10 InterCity set at Stratford, ensuring every door is securly closed, while 100s of passengers stream past blocking your view. Then try again in the dark.

Identifying a door on the catch is not as easy as it sounds, and the repercusions for everyone if a train is despatched with a door on the catch are quite serious.

It does make me wonder how we coped when nearly everything was slam doors though.

I still have no idea why BR didn't either fit sliding doors to begin with or fit Autoclosers (common on the continent) - Probably "Not Invented Here"....

 

[Oswyntail]

Part of the fun of travelling abroad is wrestling with all the unfamiliar systems and facilities which all have their quirks and variants in quality (was the cattle truck I travelled on from Frankfurt to Erfurt late one night really an IC set?). But where Britain really does come bottom is the lack of willingness/ability to even attempt to acknowledge other languages. There are loads of trilingual information signs throughout the continent and they still seem clear and uncluttered.

 

[starrymarkb]

Something we do well is information on Rail Replacement. Last year I arrived at Berlin Hbf to find no trains to Schonefeld (Engineering work). No signs anywhere on the station (even if they were in German we could have worked out what was going on) or indication of alternative routes for tourists (asking staff was met with the response "take the city railway [s-bahn]" no route or line numbers given). In fact we only worked out when 2 trains didn't show that something was up!

 

[sprinterguy]

I still have no idea why BR didn't either fit sliding doors to begin with or fit Autoclosers (common on the continent) - Probably "Not Invented Here"....

The idea behind the HST was to get a working, reliable production train into service as quickly as possible using proven technology - Relatively low-tech compared to BR's other major Intercity train project at the time, the APT. As such power doors were vetoed as an added complexity. Auto-closers could have been a good retrofit though, they seem to be very handy on the continent.

 

[tbtc]

where Britain really does come bottom is the lack of willingness/ability to even attempt to acknowledge other languages. There are loads of trilingual information signs throughout the continent

Its partly because we have very little linguistic difference in these isles - compared to the continent where bi-lingual countries (like Belguim), the shifting borders and closeness may mean a large number of passengers require information in a second (or third) language.

Plus, whilst there's an "obvious" second language to consider in some places (like you may get a large number of Germans in Strasbourg, because its only a few miles from the border, or you may get a large number of Spaniards in Portugal), there's not one clear second language to use on most UK station signage (apart from Welsh in north west Wales, of course).

 

[D1009]

I think one of the worst things is the design of what was called the Secondary Door Locking, now referred to as Central Door Locking. With a little more ingenuity this could have actually proved that all the doors were closed, removing the need for a manual check, and this would save an enormous amount of time and difficulty over train dispatch.

 

[cgcenet]

For many people on some intercity routes though advance fares are the norm and walk-up tickets would only be used if they were the only practical option for the journey in question, for example an essential journey at short notice.

Advance fares are certainly more common on National Rail than they used to be, but off-peak walk-up fares are still available on all long-distance National Rail routes, and are still affordable for the average leisure traveller (they are regulated, like season tickets). [Incidentally, the SuperSaver seems to have been resurrected on some routes, now called Super Off-peak.]

Like I said, one of the things that sets Eurostar apart from any domestic UK train service is that with Eurostar, a yield-managed advance fare is the ONLY way to get a discount on the full fare (which is set at a level suitable for business travellers on expense accounts). If any UK passenger train company were to operate like Eurostar, it would have to abolish Off-peak fares, Railcards, season tickets and rail passes, as well as make all journeys bookahead-only.

 

[Zoe]

but off-peak walk-up fares are still available on all long-distance National Rail routes, and are still affordable for the average leisure traveller

No they are not, a lot of people simply don't have a spare £100 to go spending on a non-essential walk-up ticket and even less so now considering the economic climate. I no longer make short notice leisure journeys intercity journeys on some routes as it's simply too expensive and I know I'm not the only person. I've had conversations with people over the last few years on this issue and they all say that they would only use in advance fare these days as that's all they an afford.

they are regulated

Correct but they are now allowed to be increased at RPI plus one percent. Previously it was RPI minus one percent.

Incidentally, the SuperSaver seems to have been resurrected on some routes, now called Super Off-peak.

While Super Off Peak fares have been reintroduced, many of these are not the old Super Saver resurrected but have taken over from the old Saver as the regulated fare (but more heavily restricted). For example in 2006 FGW scrapped the Super Saver and then in 2009 introduced Super Off Peak at the Off Peak rate and then hiked the Off Peak fare by 20%.

 

[Trog]

But where Britain really does come bottom is the lack of willingness/ability to even attempt to acknowledge other languages. There are loads of trilingual information signs throughout the continent and they still seem clear and uncluttered.

I thought we had done it the other way round by putting all the original signs up in other peoples favourite second language.

 

[brianthegiant]

What's wrong with saying first class is at the rear of the train, when it is?

Sure, if English is your first language, but stop and think, what is the first thing that comes to mind with the word "accommodation" - Bed and breakfast? student digs? anything but train carriage. If you mean Carriages why not say so. Ok arguably not the best example of obtusely worded announcements, but lets not get semantics in the way of the underlying issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just a thought for the rest of this discussion, our Railway isn't built for the tourists so they come well down on the priority list im afraid.

Hmm, lets not forget that revenue from tourism is important for our balance of payments. What's also interesting is that many of the issues people are raising don't only affect tourists they also affect permanent residents.

Proving to be quite an interesting thread, thanks for all the responses!

 

[yorksrob]

s
Won't there have to be some way of opening the door from the inside if the trains are to remain in service from 1 January 2020?

Indeed - doesn't make it any less of a waste of money though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Try despatching a load 10 InterCity set at Stratford, ensuring every door is securly closed, while 100s of passengers stream past blocking your view. Then try again in the dark.

Identifying a door on the catch is not as easy as it sounds, and the repercusions for everyone if a train is despatched with a door on the catch are quite serious.

True, but given that we have skilled dispatchers like yourselves, haven't we got far better things to spend our money on than retro-fitting expensive technology to carriages that are already in their twilight years !

 

[island]

Japan is often mentioned, and here's something to ponder. On the 新幹線 (Shinkansen/bullet train), trains have a number (alphanumeric, such as みずほ/Mizuho 101) which immediately identifies which service you are booked onto. In general, there are three types of carriage, ordinary unreservable, ordinary reservable, and green (first) reservable. There is a slightly higher fare for ordinary reservable seats to reflect the guarantee of a seat. There's no need to put out reservations and you can walk up and use whatever train you like (excepting the few which have only reservable accommodation). Being in a reservable seat without a reservation is treated as being without a ticket, but you can reserve seats up to departure and change to a different train at no fee via TVMs.

On the minus side, the system is still impenetrable to tourists, unless you can tell what 横浜, 新宿, and 東京 are, because most of the screens display only the final station (Tōkyō in this case) in English letters.

 

[Bevan Price]

Was always really annoyed when an RPI gave a PF to tourists at Slough when visiting Windsor with a Travelcard. It was obvious they didn't know where the ticket was valid from , but as NX say PFs are for everyday mistakes!!!!

Trouble is that we have a fiendishly complicated ticket system, coupled with TOC managers who think that everyone with the wrong ticket is a criminal trying to defraud the railway.

 

[starrymarkb]

Trouble is that we have a fiendishly complicated ticket system, coupled with TOC managers who think that everyone with the wrong ticket is a criminal trying to defraud the railway.

And go abroad where you will find that Tourists with the wrong ticket or who haven't validated it on the platform will get an instant €60 fine.

Also SBB, that inspiration for many enthusiasts, will fine for such things as boarding a train before the credit card transaction is posted to their systems.

As a tourist it's best to read up on what zone attractions/destinations are in and if in doubt ask before travelling. A common problem I hear about is that Berlin Schonefeld Airport is only just in Zone C of the city transport system. Tourists try to chance getting a ticket valid in Zones A&B, the inspectors know this and will issue fines for A&B tickets validated at Schonefeld!

 

[Radish]

Asylumxl; hands off our Skeggy, as a Lincolnshire Yellow Belly, I like it.

 

[High Dyke]

Or just close Skegness. That'll do.

:eek: Close Skegvegas? What would the Frim folk do for their cheap flipflops and checked shopping bags? They would have nowhere to buy them this side of the Trent; unless they were forced to go to Cleethorpes! :roll:

 

[Starmill]

3) I do think it's pretty unnecessary to have different branding on all the trains, though I don't see how it's particularly confusing. In fact, it makes using "Southern Only" etc. tickets a lot easier!

Oooh, hoho, was that a deliberately bad example?

 

[Ze Random One]

Certainly in terms of providing an integrated system, the UK fares substantially better than a number of countries I am familar with:

France:
In Paris, the ticketing arrangements are different depending upon the mode of transport or destination. If you're on the Metro, Bus or Tram, generally a single t+ ticket will suffice for a single journey, including connections. If you're on the RER, it matters which zone you are in, as only Zone 1 RER stations accept ticket t+. If you're going to an airport, you need to pay a special fare in many cases, OrlyBus, RoissyBus, OrlyVAL and the RER at CdG are only accessible with an Airport Access fare (or appropriate Paris Visite pass).

In most of the rest of metropolitan France, the TER local train system tends not to be integrated with the local transport ticketing:
Lyon - TER Trains + TCL Metro/Tram/Bus - only if you want a monthly smartcard.
Marseille - You can buy an integrated TER/RTM pass, but only if you want one that is valid throughout Bouches du Rhône (incl. Aix-en-Provence and Arles). Oh and you need to pay extra if you want Airport shuttles included. The benefit is the integrated pass also includes most of the other cities' bus systems, and the departmental coach network.
Lille - Local TER ticketing is integrated into the TRANSPOLE network, and visitor passes are available that include TRANSPOLE and wider TER travel (but not on the bus systems of the other cities you can travel to).
Toulouse - only one TER line in the conurbation is available on a TISSEO ticket or Pass, and then only for its suburban section (a change onto the Metro is required to reach the city centre using a TISSEO ticket). I believe a regional smartcard is available that can have multiple products loaded, but you have to be a French resident to get it.
Bordeaux - The only combined TER-TBC tickets are those combining a TER season with a TBC pass in one ticket. Normal TBC tickets do not include TER, and it does not seem to be possible to get a pass that includes TER, TBC and Gironde Cars (the regional coach services)

In most French cities, the city bus or tram network tarifs do not include the regional or departmental coach and bus networks. This includes many small cities, where a substantial portion of the local bus transport system can be provided by the departmental (inter-city) bus routes, much as in the UK.

Spain:
In Valencia, Spain, only commuter tickets can include Regional (MetroBus). Tourist tickets only incorporate Metro/Tram/City Bus (EMT). No integrated ticketing with RENFE Cercanias exists, and the Metro stations do not share concourses with the RENFE stations.

USA:
The USA tends to make it difficult to integrate modes as well:
New York
NYC Bus & Subway share a tarification system, using MetroCards for PAYG or weekly/longer travelcards.
LIRR, Metro North and LI Bus, despite also being New York MTA systems have very little integration in terms of ticketing -- the best you can get is that your LIRR or MNR ticket can also be bought with an attached PAYG MetroCard for use on the Subway/Bus. Remember, also, that weekly travelcards are not acceptable on the Express bus system unless you have an additional top-up pass. Bizarrely, this often makes it more expensive to use express buses than the subway.
Additional fares are payable for the JFK AirTrain (which only goes as far as Howard Beach or Jamaica in Queens), no integrated through tickets are available, despite it already being a difficult trip given the changes required to reach Manhattan. AirTrain will use stored value on your PAYG MetroCard as payment. What's not clear is if you can combine PAYG balance with a pass - my gut instinct is no.
PATH subway, NJ Transit (including NJ Rail, Newark and Hudson light-rail) and Amtrak all have their own tarification systems as well, the only sop to integration is that MetroCard PAYG value can be used to pay a PATH fare.
So, a week-long holiday by public transport in the NY region could end up with a plethora of different tickets and passes, many of which will look similar (How different will your PAYG MetroCard - for AirTrain and PATH - look from your weekly MetroCard pass?)
New York also has the issue that the majority of the regional train service stations were built to compete with the subway (or v.v.) and therefore do not form integrated complexes. AFAICT, only LIRR Atlantic Terminal, Penn Station and Grand Central actually incorporate subway station entrances into their complexes. All of the other interchanges require a transfer via city streets (although in the case of Jamaica LIRR, the entrance is right outside).

Chicago has a similar problem, with CTA, PACE and METRA all operating indepdent ticketing systems, and a lack of station integration. None of the METRA and CTA 'L' stations share a common concourse or entrance, and there's the ridiculous fact that the main downtown terminals for rail traffic in Chicago (Union Station, Millennium Station, Oglivie Station) are not even adjacent to 'L' stations - Union Station, one of the most important Amtrak and METRA terminals, is three blocks from an 'L' station.
The only combined system ticket is valid on CTA (downtown) buses only during typical commuter hours.

Many of the other systems share similar idiosyncracies
- LA has poor station integration and no fare integration between Metrolink and LA Metro.
- While the bay area of CA (San Fransico etc.) has an integrated card called Clipper, you still have to load separate products on to it for each transit system you want to use - Caltrain/BART/Muni/VTA/SamTrans/ACTransit - and it's not valid on Amtrak or ACE trains.
- Washington DC's WMATA is not integrated with VRE or MARC trains.

However some systems are surprisingly well integrated:
- Philadelphia (SEPTA) has a variety of fully integrated tickets (including with NJ Transit, but unfortunately not PATCO across the river), but many multi-mode transfers (subway-regional rail etc.) require street-level transfer.
- Boston (MBTA) has a reasonably integrated system
- Seattle and Tacoma use an Oyster-like card called ORCA, and although there are no weekly or daily passes, the system will automatically calculate any appropriate transfer discounts when changing vehicles or modes.

-

So certainly in the USA and France, very few cities offer the benefits that most UK municipal visitors can realise through buy-once-go-anywhere tickets.

In my travels so far, I have seen nothing like the London TravelCard or PlusBus fares where you can buy unlimited local transportation in a city the other side of the country along with your intercity travel.

We also integrate our metro networks with our local and intercity rail networks at least as well as the 'good' countries in Europe, with metro/tram stations typically forming part of the main station complexes (true in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Sheffield, Nottingham, Liverpool, Sunderland and Glasgow to some extent). We also are quite good at building dedicated bus interchanges immediately adjacent to, or as part of rail stations.

Our integrated ticketing products in the main cities almost always have an option to have heavy rail services form part of the mix (certainly true for London, all PTE covered cities, Bristol and Nottingham), and they tend to cover all buses in the appropriate area.

Finally, we have a wide variety of area explorer and rover tickets which can cover all services in an entire region, albeit these aren't always multi-mode.

They aren't as simple to use as the German fully integrated systems, but I submit that we have traded complexity for convenience, in that there's often a ticket ideal for many different sorts of tourists, and the integration between systems (at least in the larger cities, or where PlusBus is appropriate) is far more seamless than many places can offer, both in terms of ticketing and making connections.

 

[brianthegiant]

I saw a classic bit of railway management verbosity at Marylebone yesterday on the bikes racks "blah new racks blah.. we will remove your locking device"

Whats wrong with just calling them "locks", ffs?

could be one for a new railwayeye theme "verbose signs"

 

[asylumxl]

:eek: Close Skegvegas? What would the Frim folk do for their cheap flipflops and checked shopping bags? They would have nowhere to buy them this side of the Trent; unless they were forced to go to Cleethorpes! :roll:

In the bin where most sane people would put them?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

does any one else ever reflect on our rail system & how it must appear to tourists visiting Britain.

1) use a complicated ticketing system with tickets which are only valid at certain times, on certain TOCs or even specific trains

just like airlines, ferries, buses etc do ?

2) charge exorbitant penalty fares if passenger misunderstands ticketing system

because of a lack of effective management of train boarding

3) have a multitude of different train companies, give the TOCs a different name from the line (eg FCC & thameslink). change them every few years in case the tourist comes back for a repeat visit.

I think that's a somewhat London-centric view

4) make announcements in obscure sentence structure that real people wouldn't use & make no sense if you're learning English as a 2nd language ("First class accommodation is at the rear of the train" - do they mean carriage?).

other than odd inflection where automated announcements are in use the language used in clear at least they don;t presume pax to know 'up' or 'down' in railway terms or 'town' ,'country' or which end of a station is towards London ...

5) have the trains stopping at short platforms, but announce it just before the train arrives so tourists with heavy luggage don't have time to move down the train, if indeed they've understood the announcement.

relates to certain lines and TOCs

6) have maps of the rail network on trains which only show selected parts of the network according to commercial interests.

a criticism possibly more relevant to NR or ATOC than individual TOCs...

again a practice entirely normal in other modes of transport ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I saw a classic bit of railway management verbosity at Marylebone yesterday on the bikes racks "blah new racks blah.. we will remove your locking device"

Whats wrong with just calling them "locks", ffs?

could be one for a new railwayeye theme "verbose signs"

call it a lock and some adenoidal curtain twitching anorak wearer will complain about the removal of their 'chain' ...

 

[LE Greys]

call it a lock and some adenoidal curtain twitching anorak wearer will complain about the removal of their 'chain' ...

Besides, the modern D-shaped version is clearly a shackle! Best to call a spade an entrenching tool.

 

[PR1Berske]

I think the bus system is far worse for tourists than rail transport. At least the rail network has a national framework around which the system is built. Buses are hopelessly disjointed, with many bus stations not even having maps.

(Schematic diagrams are not maps, bus companies....)

 

[tbtc]

To create a system that won't "confuse" a tourist, you'd have to get rid of all advanced tickets, no penalties for having the wrong ticket, no "operator specific" tickets, need several announcements each time your train arrived at a station or departed from a station (not just multi-lingual, but also announcements that state the obvious), no more "off peak"... would that be a price worth paying?

 

[jon0844]

Now that so many people have a smartphone (although data roaming can be a killer for tourists) you could just develop a multi-lingual app for the benefit of tourists.

If it was location aware, it could relay plenty of information to the user.

There are certainly apps for visitors to other countries with text in English (both for running information, ticket pricing etc).

 

[LE Greys]

To create a system that won't "confuse" a tourist, you'd have to get rid of all advanced tickets, no penalties for having the wrong ticket, no "operator specific" tickets, need several announcements each time your train arrived at a station or departed from a station (not just multi-lingual, but also announcements that state the obvious), no more "off peak"... would that be a price worth paying?

But then travel wouldn't be any fun any more!

 

[brianthegiant]

Now that so many people have a smartphone (although data roaming can be a killer for tourists) you could just develop a multi-lingual app for the benefit of tourists.

If it was location aware, it could relay plenty of information to the user.

There are certainly apps for visitors to other countries with text in English (both for running information, ticket pricing etc).

Jon - this is a very interesting idea!

we know that paid for wifi routers can allow free access to certain web domains, as used on trains where you can access the TOCs webpage without paying. So...you just need a similar wifi setup in stations. And a very simple web server* which displays the announcements for a given station/platform and plays it in selected languages. A simple version could even be incorporated into help points or departure boards without the paid for wifi where broadband isn't available). This can be done with minimal electronics nowadays - same idea as the webpage you get when you log into your home broadband router to change your wifi settings etc. You would also then develop the nationalrail smartphone app to automatically finds & connect to the limited free wifi and relay the station/platform specific information.

the smartphone bit is easy. Technically the infrastructure is all possible & free at point of use. The tricky part would be rolling out the compatible infrastructure as part of other planned wifi/help point/departure board installations, otherwise it would be very costly.

 

[jon0844]

You could also have QR codes at stations to take people to the right web page (some TOCs already do use these I think) or even NFC tags that people touch to get live information.

NFC would already be more widely used if Apple didn't drag its heels trying to find a way to lock it down for its own gain.

I'm pretty certain that a smartphone can tell a website what language is set and deliver the right language text automatically.