How would you reform the Railcard system?

[AM9]

Scrap the pre 10am min fare .

The split in opinions here is quite interesting:
Some want it stopped because they don't use it, some want it eased to suit their peak travel, some want it expanded across the country.
Strangely, they all don't want 'their' travel to cost any more, so we must all assume that others will have to pay more either directly, - or indirectly by subsidising changes through general taxation. I can't see this circle of assorted wishes being squared anytime soon.

 

[Vespa]

Is the 3-year validity Senior Citizen Railcard the only one that offers that length of validity?

Disabled railcard also do the 3 year card as well, it works out cheaper than buying annually.

 

[HSTEd]

I think the general idea is that Railcards are, in some sense, "loss leaders". The revenue from their sale isn't really relevant. It's once you have one you are then incentivised to travel more than you would have done otherwise.

Maintaining this enormous infrastructure in an attempt to trap people in the sunk cost fallacy is a bit depressing isn't it?

If the railcards raise negligible sums the better option would be to just axe them and cut fares to the railcard fare and chase volume.

I don't like these "charged for not filling out an incidental form" type systems.

I would suggest Generalabonnement or Bahncard type systems, but our fares are so ludicrously high as to make them unworkable.

 

[lkpridgeon]

I've one for the much fabled fares simplification.

Scrap off-peak/super off-peak fares
Reduce anytime fare cost
Single leg pricing
Under 18's can buy child tickets
National Groupsave
1 Child goes free with a full paying adult (maybe?)

Railcard available to everyone however only valid for trains booked to arrive at the tickets destination after 10:00. £30 for the year. Valid both in Standard and first class.

Ideally I'd also introduce a whole network card that gives unlimited travel using the same restriction for £300-400/month. With local PTE equivalents of a lower cost.

 

[Ianno87]

Disabled railcard also do the 3 year card as well, it works out cheaper than buying annually.

Family and Friends too

Maintaining this enormous infrastructure in an attempt to trap people in the sunk cost fallacy is a bit depressing isn't it?

If the railcards raise negligible sums the better option would be to just axe them and cut fares to the railcard fare and chase volume.

I don't like these "charged for not filling out an incidental form" type systems.

I would suggest Generalabonnement or Bahncard type systems, but our fares are so ludicrously high as to make them unworkable.

It's not a "sunk cost fallacy".

You buy the Railcard if it makes sense for a couple of trips (or you'll know you'll do enough to offset the cost over the course of validity).

But then, once you have it, further discretional trips (that you may not make otherwise) are cheaper than they would have been, so you are more likely to make them. So this income to the railway is then a "bonus".

 

[HST274]

I particularly detest the Family & Friends railcard, as it seems to suggest that people with children are somehow more deserving of reasonably priced train travel.

I think that it's purpose is to encourage families to use the train over cars and make train travel more affordable for groups- in this case families. However it is quite confusing how on many journeys it is cheaper for 1 adult and 1 child with the railcard to travel than just 1 adult. For example a Derby to Loughborough single with 1 adult and a 1 child is £6.80 but for one adult it is £8.10

 

[Ianno87]

I think that it's purpose is to encourage families to use the train over cars and make train travel more affordable for groups- in this case families. However it is quite confusing how on many journeys it is cheaper for 1 adult and 1 child with the railcard to travel than just 1 adult. For example a Derby to Loughborough single with 1 adult and a 1 child is £6.80 but for one adult it is £8.10

Exactly, without the F&F railcard, the cost of train travel wouldn't even compete with the car. And then those kids grow up to be car addicts rather than rail users.

 

[30907]

I think that it's purpose is to encourage families to use the train over cars and make train travel more affordable for groups- in this case families. However it is quite confusing how on many journeys it is cheaper for 1 adult and 1 child with the railcard to travel than just 1 adult. For example a Derby to Loughborough single with 1 adult and a 1 child is £6.80 but for one adult it is £8.10

Applies on all journeys, surely, as there is no minimum fare?

 

[davews]

Interesting set of opinions.
I have had a senior rail card for quite a few years now, 3 year option. I consider I have had good use of it. Current one got its cost back after a couple of long trips pre covid and numerous travel cards for my round London walks. Its existing terms suit me, particularly unlike other cards it can be used anytime outside the (fictional) network south east and off peak trains within that rather than a set time.

But the different validity times of other cards is confusing. If there is going to be a universal card (and this of course is RUK speculation) these differences should be abolished. After morning Off Peak seems a reasonable rule rather than a fixed time, and 'valid after 10 am' is too restrictive for many.

Here peak rate fares to Waterloo are extortionate and complicated also in there being no period returns, only day of travel. If they really want to get people into London these fares need drastically reducing.

Senior Card due for renewal in September so any changes will not affect me any time soon.

 

[Clansman]

I think fares should be more radical to reflect the needs of society in terms of cost of living in accordance with age, stage of life, and on account of rewarding full fare payers and incentivising families to ditch the car. Something like;

• Extending child fares to those u20, and those 20 and over who are in full time education or apprenticeships
• 20-30 year olds automatically travel for 1/3 off without railcard upon presentation of ID, and those over 30 in part time education.
• Pilot a travel rewards scheme for those travelling on regular adult fares
• 50% off up to two adult fares when accompanying 2+ children
• Over 60s and disabled persons railcard keep as is

 

[AM9]

I think fares should be more radical to reflect the needs of society in terms of cost of living in accordance with age, stage of life, and on account of rewarding full fare payers and incentivising families to ditch the car.

Railcards are marketing tools designed to increase profitable travelling, not social welfare arrangements.

Extending child fares to those u20, and those 20 and over who are in full time education or apprenticeships

There are many 18 year old adults that have normal working lives and both leisure and work related travel is adequately covered by existing 18-25 railcards.

20-30 year olds automatically travel for 1/3 off without railcard upon presentation of ID, and those over 30 in part time education.

Already covered by 18-25 railcards, they could be made into 18-30. Only offer the same facility to those over 30 if a) full-time education, or b) occupational related part-time education.

Pilot a travel rewards scheme for those travelling on regular adult fares

There is a travel awards scheme for the most regular of travellers, i.e. season ticket holders get their anytime travel at prices similar to everybody else's off peak tickets. Whatever changes are made to the season ticket offering to meet WFH trands, there will be a political imperative to continue similar discounts.

50% off up to two adult fares when accompanying 2+ children

Some sort of Network card type of railcard would suffice, but 34% and heavily discounted child fares matches that sector's need better.

Over 60s and disabled persons railcard keep as is

Agreed, no need to change.

 

[mmh]

There is a travel awards scheme for the most regular of travellers, i.e. season ticket holders get their anytime travel at prices similar to everybody else's off peak tickets. Whatever changes are made to the season ticket offering to meet WFH trands, there will be a political imperative to continue similar discounts.

Well, we only have a day til we discover just how imperative it is!

 

[Clansman]

Railcards are marketing tools designed to increase profitable travelling, not social welfare arrangements.

That's the problem, profiteering shouldn't be a determinent for transport provisions. As we're seeing in Scotland, profit is rightly being overtaken by the social benefits of providing better transport links and services. It's about time the fare structure is rebalanced to reflect that.

There are many 18 year old adults that have normal working lives and both leisure and work related travel is adequately covered by existing 18-25 railcards.
Already covered by 18-25 railcards, they could be made into 18-30. Only offer the same facility to those over 30 if a) full-time education, or b) occupational related part-time education.

I'm speaking from a Scottish perspective, where many are in school until 18, in foundation education or low paid or unpaid apprenticeships. Turning 18 doesn't financially make someone a fully responsible or self sustaining adult. As we are seeing already, the fare structure for public transport and areas of the health service that is chargable (dentistry for example) is being reformed to reflect the cliff edge nature that turning 18 has on affordability for services. And we are also seeing this in other areas of social policy, where buses are becoming free of charge in local areas for those up to 19 years old, which is being extended to 22 year olds in the next five years. I believe we are also seeing this in Wales, too. Also reflected in education where care experienced young people up to 24 years can get additional non repayable funding to replace the lack of parental dig outs that normal students might expect to receive.

The railcard discount 18 year olds get is a nice saving, but it doesn't make travel affordable neccessarily - just less damaging to an already skint purse.

Some will disagree naturally of course, but I think there is a need to move with the times to reflect the needs of everyone today. That also goes not just for young people, but families too who find it more affordable to take the car than to travel on public transport, and full fare payers who would benefit from travel rewards to incentivise paying full price for transport. Something radical is needed.

 

[SynthD]

Students over 30 can get the young persons railcard with proof of current education.

Not all pensioners need to be given a railcard. But that applies to various other not-means-tested benefits and needs some protection for society from them driving beyond their ability so it's not easily done.

 

[AM9]

That's the problem, profiteering shouldn't be a determinent for transport provisions. As we're seeing in Scotland, profit is rightly being overtaken by the social benefits of providing better transport links and services. It's about time the fare structure is rebalanced to reflect that.



I'm speaking from a Scottish perspective, where many are in school until 18, in foundation education or low paid or unpaid apprenticeships. Turning 18 doesn't financially make someone a fully responsible or self sustaining adult. As we are seeing already, the fare structure for public transport and areas of the health service that is chargable (dentistry for example) is being reformed to reflect the cliff edge nature that turning 18 has on affordability for services. And we are also seeing this in other areas of social policy, where buses are becoming free of charge in local areas for those up to 19 years old, which is being extended to 22 year olds in the next five years. I believe we are also seeing this in Wales, too. Also reflected in education where care experienced young people up to 24 years can get additional non repayable funding to replace the lack of parental dig outs that normal students might expect to receive.

The railcard discount 18 year olds get is a nice saving, but it doesn't make travel affordable neccessarily - just less damaging to an already skint purse.

Some will disagree naturally of course, but I think there is a need to move with the times to reflect the needs of everyone today. That also goes not just for young people, but families too who find it more affordable to take the car than to travel on public transport, and full fare payers who would benefit from travel rewards to incentivise paying full price for transport. Something radical is needed.

The situation in the south-east is quite different in respect of competition with private road transport. The major flow (in non-pandemic times of course) into central London is not private road transport. Rail is for many the only practical option and given that viable railheads for long-distance are mainly still at least 20+km away from the centre, National Rail provides most of the capacity. When services worsen or fares take a rise, there is often a knee-jerk response by a few who take to the roads in the belief that the railway will see sense and change back, but it doesn't and the few mostly gradually return to rail. This means that rail provision in the south-east has to provide the capacity (at great cost) and is why fares are generally higher than elsewhere. So the railway doesn't have to walk on tiptoe to avoid upsetting it's customer base on cost that much. Now if it failed to provide sufficient capacity or reliability, it very quickly becomes a political matter. So the Network railcard is a reasonable fix for families and individuals for leisure and non-peak travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why offer a season ticket discount to young people when in many cases the railcard does the job with day tickets. No faffing around with carnet type tickets either.

Because the minimum fare only offers it to some people, not all. If a season ticket discount is held as a reasonable thing, then it should be on offer to everyone of the relevant demographic whatever their journey, not just those whose fare meets an arbitrary minimum.

 

[Mikey C]

Students over 30 can get the young persons railcard with proof of current education.

That was quite a nice bonus when I went back as a middle aged mature student to do a Master's degree. It did feel a bit weird to have a 16-25 railcard though

 

[infobleep]

I don't buy a Network Rail Card simply did to the minimum fare cost during the week.

I had some old South West Trains free weekend tickets so I used a couple of those to help offset the cost of the cheapest annual season ticket.

To be for I wouldn't have made one of the journeys if I didn't have the gold card.

I did however think I'd make more journeys to work and that didn't happen.

It should happen in the future and that should make the annual season ticket more viable for journey savings.

 

[Horizon22]

That was quite a nice bonus when I went back as a middle aged mature student to do a Master's degree. It did feel a bit weird to have a 16-25 railcard though

Perhaps a renaming of the 16-25 & 26-30 card to one 16-30 + student "Youth & Student Railcard" might help!

 

[lachlan]

The disabled Railcard doesn't have any time restrictions and I think this should be preserved - disabled people often rely on public transport at all times of day and don't always have a choice of when they travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The disabled Railcard doesn't have any time restrictions and I think this should be preserved - disabled people often rely on public transport at all times of day and don't always have a choice of when they travel.

Though we might want to consider who can have it, too, and align it more with the Blue Badge criteria, perhaps, plus any disabilities that disqualify one from driving. It's downright silly that being partially deaf in one ear (really a very minor encumbrance in the scheme of things) renders you eligible for one, for example (that's how my Dad has his).

 

[Ianno87]

Though we might want to consider who can have it, too, and align it more with the Blue Badge criteria, perhaps, plus any disabilities that disqualify one from driving. It's downright silly that being partially deaf in one ear (really a very minor encumbrance in the scheme of things) renders you eligible for one, for example (that's how my Dad has his).

Arguably, a Disabled Railcard isn't about correlating with Diasabilty / Equality legislation - it is a marketing product like every other Railcard.

E.g. Hearing loss may be a disincentive (but not a "barrier") to using the rail network if you can't hear announcements etc.

So probably just easier to offer to everyone rather than people being told they're "not disabled enough".

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Offer the following "open" Railcards:
- National Railcard - approx £120 pa or £10/month by direct debit. Available to anyone.
- Anytime National Railcard - much higher fee, perhaps even £360 per year (or £30 per month) or even more, no time restriction on this one
- Either bin the Network Railcard or consider offering one for each region at the £30ish rate

And the following "demographic" ones, all at £30ish and with the standard time restriction, only offering discount for the holder unless stated
- 18-30 (no point having the two separate)
- Disabled (also offers discount for a companion)
- Senior (60+?)
- Maybe the Two Together
- Plus the other odd ones like Forces

I'd retain the Network Railcard then the counties outside of it e.g. Wiltshire, Avon, Gloucestershire, Somerset would each have their own (Devon and Cornwall would have a joint one) but priced at £20 and each covers its primary area. OK, you'd find Frome, Bruton, Castle Cary and Yeovil being added to the Wiltshire one, whereas the one for Avon would go as far as Severn Tunnel Junction (because of the Pilning problem), Gloucester and Westbury (basically following the current AvonRider boundary) and Taunton via Nailsea & Backwell. Somerset's would extend to Trowbridge, Bristol via Nailsea & Backwell and Tiverton Parkway.

The 16-25 and 25-30 would be merged to create a single 16-30 railcard, the Two Together retained and the Senior merged with the National Travel Pass Scheme in each of the three nations.

 

[RobShipway]

Though we might want to consider who can have it, too, and align it more with the Blue Badge criteria, perhaps, plus any disabilities that disqualify one from driving. It's downright silly that being partially deaf in one ear (really a very minor encumbrance in the scheme of things) renders you eligible for one, for example (that's how my Dad has his).

Arguably, a Disabled Railcard isn't about correlating with Diasabilty / Equality legislation - it is a marketing product like every other Railcard.

E.g. Hearing loss may be a disincentive (but not a "barrier") to using the rail network if you can't hear announcements etc.

So probably just easier to offer to everyone rather than people being told they're "not disabled enough".

It is like my Mum, who can just about walk with using a stick but cannot get a disabled badge for use in her car as she is not disabled enough. Fortunately, because of my Mum and my Dad's age at mid 70's it does enable them to have Senior Citizen Railcards, even if they cannot get to park near their nearest railway station which is Newhaven Town.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The railway needs to get bums on seats. The network railcard did that on the SE prior to covid, and it needs to continue to do that in spades. The same can be said of elsewhere now as well !

So much hate for the Network Railcard (from those unable to use it). On this basis I would be demanding products like the WYPTE MCard (£46 a week bus and rail zones 1-5) and similar PTE schemes were scrapped, because I don't have need to use them

The basis of the Network Railcard hasn't changed since its inception:

- The South East has a very large and very long fleet of trains to cope with its uniquely large peak demand
- The South East has disproportionately high peak and off-peak fares (compared to the north west, say)
- The off peak period needs to be monetised given the high overheads of its fleet and infrastructure, and the "NSE" discount is a way to stimulate off-peak travel
- The commuting and business demand needs to be managed - i.e. encourage travellers onto less busy trains
- COVID aside, the South East operators in general receive less government net support in real terms and per passenger mile (page 9 of https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf relates). Northern already cost the taxpayer £800m a year before COVID happened,

Yes the validity area isn't perfect but it's a few historical anomalies at the extremes rather than systematic.

If anything they need to promote it more and provide similar products in other cities (or just use the current subsidy and "10p ticket" schemes).

I would say even now though, it is not a product that well known outside of regular travellers (dare I say enthusiasts) and Money Saving Expert types. I encourage my colleagues to get one (and claim the cost back from the company) as it pays back quite quickly for business trips to London, Heathrow or Gatwick. One would say that business travel isn't what it's aimed at, and that's probably true, but for airport runs, if I was paying full fare it would make more sense for the company to hire me a car at its corporate rate one way and I'd drive to Heathrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd not kill the Network Railcard but rather introduce other regional ones to go with it. A National Railcard could then be a bit cheaper than buying all of them.

 

[yorksrob]

So much hate for the Network Railcard (from those unable to use it). On this basis I would be demanding products like the WYPTE MCard (£46 a week bus and rail zones 1-5) and similar PTE schemes were scrapped, because I don't have need to use them

The basis of the Network Railcard hasn't changed since its inception:

- The South East has a very large and very long fleet of trains to cope with its uniquely large peak demand
- The South East has disproportionately high peak and off-peak fares (compared to the north west, say)
- The off peak period needs to be monetised given the high overheads of its fleet and infrastructure, and the "NSE" discount is a way to stimulate off-peak travel
- The commuting and business demand needs to be managed - i.e. encourage travellers onto less busy trains
- COVID aside, the South East operators in general receive less government net support in real terms and per passenger mile (page 9 of https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf relates). Northern already cost the taxpayer £800m a year before COVID happened,

Yes the validity area isn't perfect but it's a few historical anomalies at the extremes rather than systematic.

If anything they need to promote it more and provide similar products in other cities (or just use the current subsidy and "10p ticket" schemes).

I would say even now though, it is not a product that well known outside of regular travellers (dare I say enthusiasts) and Money Saving Expert types. I encourage my colleagues to get one (and claim the cost back from the company) as it pays back quite quickly for business trips to London, Heathrow or Gatwick. One would say that business travel isn't what it's aimed at, and that's probably true, but for airport runs, if I was paying full fare it would make more sense for the company to hire me a car at its corporate rate one way and I'd drive to Heathrow.

I think the key thing is that it needs to morph into a national railcard (I don't hate the Network card BTW, I used to hold one until lockdown etc).

The traditional reluctance of Governments not to invest in the regional railway shouldn't be used as an excuse to deny people access to affordable travel on the basis that they live in other areas, many of which are less affluent than the Network card area.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think the key thing is that it needs to morph into a national railcard (I don't hate the Network card BTW, I used to hold one until lockdown etc).

The traditional reluctance of Governments not to invest in the regional railway shouldn't be used as an excuse to deny people access to affordable travel on the basis that they live in other areas, many of which are less affluent than the Network card area.

No I know, I wasn't referring to your posts!

 

[LUYMun]

Like many have suggested, I think that the 16-25 and 26-30 railcards should be merged into a young person's railcard, but in the age range of 19-30 whilst 16-18 y.o.'s still pay at the child fare.

 

[JonathanH]

Like many have suggested, I think that the 16-25 and 26-30 railcards should be merged into a young person's railcard,

You obviously don't understand the reason for the July and August easement (which has a very sound footing) - arguably the split should be 16-23 and 24-30 but I guess there isn't the political will to change that.