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How would you reform the Railcard system?

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Vespa

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It is a marketing tool to sell capacity that would otherwise be empty, pure and simple. By tailoring a number of cards to specific groups of passengers with different validity restrictions, the demand can be directed to very specific services. As far as the railway is concerned it isn't broken so it doesn't need fixing, only a few tweaks maybe.

As Bletchlylite said

I think I'd answer that "but simplicity is a strong benefit in and of itself".

With so many different railcards it can be an administrative nightmare and confusing to passengers, they would be put off so if you make it simple and easy to understand, there would be a better take up of the service.
 
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Ianno87

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As Bletchlylite said



With so many different railcards it can be an administrative nightmare and confusing to passengers, they would be put off so if you make it simple and easy to understand, there would be a better take up of the service.

Although a well-programmed journey planner/booking system works out the restrictions for you, so it shouldn't matter if Ts and Cs aren't identical, as they don't need to be "simple"; the passenger just needs to clearly understand what the correct fare is.
 

Bletchleyite

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Although a well-programmed journey planner/booking system works out the restrictions for you, so it shouldn't matter if Ts and Cs aren't identical, as they don't need to be "simple"; the passenger just needs to clearly understand what the correct fare is.

Journey planners are not the best UI for TVMs because they take a long time to use.
 

JonathanH

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Journey planners are not the best UI for TVMs because they take a long time to use.
Not to mention there is an element of 'computer knows best' about such machines which means that certain tickets can't be bought when required and valid.
 

Vespa

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Although a well-programmed journey planner/booking system works out the restrictions for you, so it shouldn't matter if Ts and Cs aren't identical, as they don't need to be "simple"; the passenger just needs to clearly understand what the correct fare is.
Disabled Railcards differs from most is that discounted fares have to be offered on the train rather than a full undiscounted fare, if due to their disability they are able to buy a ticket the conventional way.
 

HS2isgood

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Disabled Railcards differs from most is that discounted fares have to be offered on the train rather than a full undiscounted fare, if due to their disability they are able to buy a ticket the conventional way.
Why isn't it peak restricted in the Southeast? A disabled professional is still a high-yield passenger for the railway. (Unless we consider it to be a subsidy)
 

lachlan

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Why isn't it peak restricted in the Southeast? A disabled professional is still a high-yield passenger for the railway. (Unless we consider it to be a subsidy)
I presume it's because the disabled Railcard is designed to help people who have no choice but to take public transport, which may be more expensive and/or less convenient than driving. So unlike other railcards, it is designed for commuting. Just my thoughts
 

AM9

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As Bletchlylite said



With so many different railcards it can be an administrative nightmare and confusing to passengers, they would be put off so if you make it simple and easy to understand, there would be a better take up of the service.
I can't see how the different railcard types are 'confusing'. Most people know:
a) their age, - whether they are anywhere between 16 & 30 or over 60​
b) whether they part of a family or group of friends​
c) whether they want a discount when two people travel​
d) whether their travel is limited to the Network card area​
All quite simple stuff really, and certainly no more difficult than walk-up or advance ticket validity.
 

bspahh

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I can't see how the different railcard types are 'confusing'. Most people know:
a) their age, - whether they are anywhere between 16 & 30 or over 60​
b) whether they part of a family or group of friends​
c) whether they want a discount when two people travel​
d) whether their travel is limited to the Network card area​
All quite simple stuff really, and certainly no more difficult than walk-up or advance ticket validity.
The also need to remember that its not just for off peak trains, but after 9.30am for a Two Together railcard, 10am for a Network railcard, that there is a minimum fee for a Network railcard.

Combine that with split ticketing, and it quickly gets confusing.
 

JonathanH

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The also need to remember that its not just for off peak trains, but after 9.30am for a Two Together railcard, 10am for a Network railcard, that there is a minimum fee for a Network railcard.
But they don't. They only need to know the restrictions for the railcard they hold.
 

Cdd89

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At the very least, the discrepancy over which cards are eligible for discounts on first class (non-advance) fares should be regularised. I have yet to hear any rationale for why some cards get this and others don’t (perhaps the Gold Card is a little more understandable since the underlying season might be First).
 
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bspahh

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But they don't. They only need to know the restrictions for the railcard they hold.
I own both. For a recent trip, I probably wanted to travel with my wife, but it would have been good to have the flexibility to travel separately.
 

AM9

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I own both. For a recent trip, I probably wanted to travel with my wife, but it would have been good to have the flexibility to travel separately.
Between my wife an I we have simultaneously held 3 cards, her a Network card, me a Senior card and we have shared a 2 Together card. No problem in understanding the difference, within the NSE area we use our own cards if we are likely to separate, and it's not exactly difficult to remember the start times and any other significant differences. Those who can't be bothered to remember the conditions are probably at risk of getting the use of any card wrong.
 

yorksrob

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I have a Dales Railcard. It was excellent value for money when I had a metrocard that took me to Leeds for no additional charge, but as it's validity area doesn't stretch to my corner of Yorkshire, the benefit is diluted somewhat by the additional cost of getting into Leeds. This is even more the case now that the 10:19 to Lancaster doesn't run, and I often end up going another route. Whether I retain one will probably depend on whether the winter offer comes back. I do, however intend to retain my FoSC membership.

I used to hold a Network Card, however living outside of the South East, it was always marginal whether it paid for itself, and with the fiasco of the last year it hasn't been. I'm not convinced It'll be worthwhile getting one again.
 

Hadders

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Why isn't it peak restricted in the Southeast? A disabled professional is still a high-yield passenger for the railway. (Unless we consider it to be a subsidy)
Not all disabled railcard holders are professional people. Many will be earning very low wages and be unable to drive.

Have you any idea how difficult life is for disabled people? We should do everything we can to help these people.
 

The Ham

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I wonder if there's a market for a spend to save discount schemes.

Basically it works by the more you spend on rail tickets the more you save, so for instance once you've spent £1,000 you get 10% off all future rail tickets with then it increasing something like the below:
£1,500 15%
£2,250 20%
£3,250 25%
£4,500 30%
£6,000 35%
£8,000 40%
£12,000 50%

There would be no peak hour restrictions, other than a £5 minimum ticket price, if the current discounted price ticket would put you into the next discount band then you'd get the higher discount (if at 40% off you'd have spent £12,000 then you'd get the 50% discount, for instance a £200 ticket costing £120 pushes you to £12,001 spent then you'd pay £100, even though you'd have only spent £11,981).

You can nominate 2 other adults to have the same discount as you when they travel with you and with up to 4 adults can get a discount (other adults get 3/4's the discount that you get) and to to 4 children (same discount as you) when they travel with you.

Businesses can register staff and can get the discounts at the same thresholds but based on average staff spend less 10% of staff (i.e. if you register 10 staff your total spend needs to be 9 times that) registered staff can use the discount for personal use in the same restrictions as above with spend counting towards company values.
 

AM9

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I wonder if there's a market for a spend to save discount schemes.

Basically it works by the more you spend on rail tickets the more you save, so for instance once you've spent £1,000 you get 10% off all future rail tickets with then it increasing something like the below:
£1,500 15%
£2,250 20%
£3,250 25%
£4,500 30%
£6,000 35%
£8,000 40%
£12,000 50%

There would be no peak hour restrictions, other than a £5 minimum ticket price, if the current discounted price ticket would put you into the next discount band then you'd get the higher discount (if at 40% off you'd have spent £12,000 then you'd get the 50% discount, for instance a £200 ticket costing £120 pushes you to £12,001 spent then you'd pay £100, even though you'd have only spent £11,981).

You can nominate 2 other adults to have the same discount as you when they travel with you and with up to 4 adults can get a discount (other adults get 3/4's the discount that you get) and to to 4 children (same discount as you) when they travel with you.

Businesses can register staff and can get the discounts at the same thresholds but based on average staff spend less 10% of staff (i.e. if you register 10 staff your total spend needs to be 9 times that) registered staff can use the discount for personal use in the same restrictions as above with spend counting towards company values.
Post COVID recovery aside, how would this work on routes where commuter travel is using line capacity?
 

The Ham

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Post COVID recovery aside, how would this work on routes where commuter travel is using line capacity?

Chances are those spending the sort of money where they'll be getting more than 20% discount without buying a season ticket (which would cover most of the peak hour travel of most who would benefit) would likely be fairly few and far between.

As such the extra loadings on peak hour services would be limited.

Anyway should we be looking to price people off the rail network or encouraging them to use it and we then have to provide the extra services to facilitate that?
 

AM9

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Chances are those spending the sort of money where they'll be getting more than 20% discount without buying a season ticket (which would cover most of the peak hour travel of most who would benefit) would likely be fairly few and far between.

As such the extra loadings on peak hour services would be limited.

Anyway should we be looking to price people off the rail network or encouraging them to use it and we then have to provide the extra services to facilitate that?
I specifically said post COVID, because as far as we know there may not be sufficent capacity on some routes to accommodate additional demand if the regualr commuter traffic returns to near pre COVID levels.
 

The Ham

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I specifically said post COVID, because as far as we know there may not be sufficent capacity on some routes to accommodate additional demand if the regualr commuter traffic returns to near pre COVID levels.

Indeed, and I was saying that in such routes the numbers getting a significant discount under such a scheme (and wouldn't be using a season ticket for that travel) would be limited, having a small overall impact.

However, if a route is that heavily loaded then we should be looking to increase capacity not just price people off the network.
 

AM9

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Indeed, and I was saying that in such routes the numbers getting a significant discount under such a scheme (and wouldn't be using a season ticket for that travel) would be limited, having a small overall impact.
OK, I read it as a generally applied discount, not that certain flows might be excepted.

However, if a route is that heavily loaded then we should be looking to increase capacity not just price people off the network.
Where possible of course, but there are some routes where capacity is used to its limit and increasing that would involve levels of infrastructure investment that would take forever and a day to get funding for. Typically we could be talking about crossrail 2 or the Castlefields Corridor four tracking schemes to meet significant growth on the scale being experienced pre COVID.
 

option

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  • the 16-25 and 26-30 railcards should be merged together as one Young Person's Railcard

Scrap those & have an 'any age' Student Railcard


Having checked, the 16-25 already does that, but doesn't seem to be promoted much; https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/are-you-eligible/
& there's also this; https://www.16-17saver.co.uk/

Anyone under 16 would fulfil the 'student' requirements anyway, & Apprenticeships could be included for those over 18.
 

lachlan

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Scrap those & have an 'any age' Student Railcard


Having checked, the 16-25 already does that, but doesn't seem to be promoted much; https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/are-you-eligible/
& there's also this; https://www.16-17saver.co.uk/

Anyone under 16 would fulfil the 'student' requirements anyway, & Apprenticeships could be included for those over 18.
As 16-25 year olds don't earn the full minimum wage I think it's important that all under 25s have discounted fares, not just those who are students. Also good to get folks using rail while they're young!
 

ta-toget

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As 16-25 year olds don't earn the full minimum wage
Although, in my opinion, it would be better to just have the same minimum wage for people of all ages (perhaps excluding school students, I've not 100% made up my mind on that).
Also good to get folks using rail while they're young!
I agree with that, though if it suddenly gets more expensive when they lose their eligibility for the railcard, will they all continue to the same extent?
 

lachlan

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Although, in my opinion, it would be better to just have the same minimum wage for people of all ages (perhaps excluding school students, I've not 100% made up my mind on that).

I agree with that, though if it suddenly gets more expensive when they lose their eligibility for the railcard, will they all continue to the same extent?
Yea I fully support the same minimum wage for everyone, and would prefer to just make all tickets a good bit cheaper and do away with railcards. I think many would still continue with rail if they've been using it for the past 10 years and maybe even decided not to own a car because they're able to commute by train. Hopefully. I hope 16-25 encourages people to commute by train rather than car
 
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