How would you solve LM's problems?

[Mojo]

And even the stations that do have them; Snow Hill you can exit via the Tram platforms, New Street you can exit via the lifts and Moor Street you can use the other exit which is only staffed in peak hours.

 

[Minilad]

And even the stations that do have them; Snow Hill you can exit via the Tram platforms, New Street you can exit via the lifts and Moor Street you can use the other exit which is only staffed in peak hours.

Careful with that though as they sometimes put a block on the lifts exit

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Plus to add, the big companies don't seem to be that big on the barriers

LM don't have any at their stations in the midlands but they do at Northampton, Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central, possibly the only two
VT don't have any at their stations I think
Cross Country don't have any stations
East Coast don't even have any barriers, not at York, Donnie or Peterborough

The first companies that you would have to go to as far the barriers ar concerned are Arriva, ScotRail, First Capital Connect and East Midlands Trains!

 

[AlterEgo]

East Coast don't even have any barriers, not at York, Donnie or Peterborough

They do at Darlington, Durham and Newcastle though. Horrible.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Very good point. Not even Coventry, Birmingham Intl, or Wolverhampton (Virgin-run stations) have barriers. Virgin on the whole are not keen on barriers.

And even the stations that do have them; Snow Hill you can exit via the Tram platforms, New Street you can exit via the lifts and Moor Street you can use the other exit which is only staffed in peak hours.

Plus to add, the big companies don't seem to be that big on the barriers

LM don't have any at their stations in the midlands but they do at Northampton, Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central, possibly the only two
VT don't have any at their stations I think
Cross Country don't have any stations
East Coast don't even have any barriers, not at York, Donnie or Peterborough
The first companies that you would have to go to as far the barriers ar concerned are Arriva, ScotRail, First Capital Connect and East Midlands Trains!

Guys I really don’t understand this! They are potentially losing so much money! Barriers work fine in the South East where I live and in my view they should be all over the UK by now. The initial cost of installing ticket machines / barriers will be repaid many times over.
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They do at Darlington, Durham and Newcastle though. Horrible.

Why are they horrible? Anything that prevents fraud surely has to be good for the railway network?

 

[martinsh]

I don't think most people would put "the staff make the rules up as they go along" on their list of "major problems".

Actually, I would say that departing early (which is what the OPs point boils down to) IS a major porblem if widespread.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why are they horrible? Anything that prevents fraud surely has to be good for the railway network?

Barriers aren't suitable for every scenario. I'm sure other can talk at more length than I can about places where they are less suitable. They are definitely suitable for some stations, though.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Why are they horrible? Anything that prevents fraud surely has to be good for the railway network?

Barriers aren't suitable for every scenario. I'm sure other can talk at more length than I can about places where they are less suitable. They are definitely suitable for some stations, though.

I do get what both of you are saying, they are needed to prevent fraud but suitable for some stations

You can easily see why they are needed at the majority of stations in London and in the centre of Birmingham as well as Scotland but they wouldn't be suitable at local 'commuter type' stations such as, for example, Rugeley TV or Cheadle Hulme

I do think though that the major cities should have them.

IIRC, none of the Manchester stations have them, Liverpool has them partially installed, York, Doncaster and Peterborough deffo don't

 

[RichmondCommu]

Barriers aren't suitable for every scenario. I'm sure other can talk at more length than I can about places where they are less suitable. They are definitely suitable for some stations, though.

Fair enough but if they can work in the confines of a tube station (some aren't all that big) I don't see why they can't be successfully installed in large inter-city stations such as York and Newcastle. Revenue protection surely has to come before aesthetics?

 

[AlterEgo]

Fair enough but if they can work in the confines of a tube station (some aren't all that big) I don't see why they can't be successfully installed in large inter-city stations such as York and Newcastle. Revenue protection surely has to come before aesthetics?

It isn't an aesthetics problem....more concerns about meeting the passenger's needs, but the anti-barrier argument is for another thread (it'll only derail this one!). There are plenty of pros and cons! They most certainly do not stop fare evasion, however. Evaders move from buying no ticket to deliberately buying the wrong ticket.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You can easily see why they are needed at the majority of stations in London and in the centre of Birmingham as well as Scotland but they wouldn't be suitable at local 'commuter type' stations such as, for example, Rugeley TV or Cheadle Hulme

Ian, if they suitable for my local station (Richmond) then surely they are suitable for other commuter type stations? Richmond is as much a commuter station as anywhere else. They are much more reliable than some people would have you think!

 

[dvboy]

They are in the process of fitting the machines

As far as barriers go, I don't think that many LM stations in the West Mids have them, Snow Hill does and New Street doesn't have barriers per se but they do have people at the barriers but that is probably about it

Five Ways and University have them too.
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Very good point. Not even Coventry, Birmingham Intl, or Wolverhampton (Virgin-run stations) have barriers. Virgin on the whole are not keen on barriers.

You wouldn't be able to fit them at Wolverhampton, there simply isn't room. When they have tried to put a manned barrier in there, it gets horribly crowded. They often do this at Coventry too.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It isn't an aesthetics problem....more concerns about meeting the passenger's needs, but the anti-barrier argument is for another thread (it'll only derail this one!). There are plenty of pros and cons! They most certainly do not stop fare evasion, however. Evaders move from buying no ticket to deliberately buying the wrong ticket.

Ok but at least passengers are buying a ticket, even if its off peak when it shouldn't be. And that surely saves the guard time as he's not having to use his machine to sell tickets. As for passengers needs, surely someone can invent a ticket machine which allows a passenger to drag their baggage through? In fact I'm sure they already exist although I maybe be wrong!

 

[dvboy]

And even the stations that do have them; Snow Hill you can exit via the Tram platforms, New Street you can exit via the lifts and Moor Street you can use the other exit which is only staffed in peak hours.

At Snow Hill they have a man on the tram exit during peak hours. I've had my nNetwork season ticket checked there in the past when transferring from train to tram.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Five Ways and University have them too.
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You wouldn't be able to fit them at Wolverhampton, there simply isn't room. When they have tried to put a manned barrier in there, it gets horribly crowded. They often do this at Coventry too.

In all honesty I've never travelled by train to Wolverhampton but could they not change the station layout in order to install the barriers? Surely "horribly crowded" is a price worth paying to ensure that everyone has paid for their journey?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

How would you do [stn]CRA[/stn] then? 3 exits (one of which is a "night gate" outdoors, another outdoors one next to a level crossing) without causing mayhem? Same with [stn]SBJ[/stn]? And how about [stn]SBT[/stn] too while we're at it?

 

[yorkie]

Surely "horribly crowded" is a price worth paying

Oh dear - you should apply for a job at the DfT! Also the pro-car lobby would be kept happy!

to ensure that everyone has paid for their journey?

Barriers don't do that

 

[RichmondCommu]

How would you do [stn]CRA[/stn] then? 3 exits (one of which is a "night gate" outdoors, another outdoors one next to a level crossing) without causing mayhem? Same with [stn]SBJ[/stn]? And how about [stn]SBT[/stn] too while we're at it?

I have never been to those stations. Please explain how this would cause mayhem!

 

[yorkie]

I have never been to those stations. Please explain how this would cause mayhem!

Each has a link to the station plan, so you can take a look without going there to get a rough idea. Is this really affordable? I doubt it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Oh dear - you should apply for a job at the DfT! Also the pro-car lobby would be kept happy!

Barriers don't do that

No I'm quite happy with my current job! Surely the barrier will not let you pass unless you have bought a ticket? At least that is my experience of travelling on the railway.
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In all fairness, tube stations can become horribly crowded and yet barriers are still in operation. The only people who complain about barriers are those who don't have a ticket. There is a simple answer to that.

 

[dvboy]

In all honesty I've never travelled by train to Wolverhampton but could they not change the station layout in order to install the barriers? Surely "horribly crowded" is a price worth paying to ensure that everyone has paid for their journey?

I think (way in the back of my head) there are long term plans for a new entrance.

The space for barriers in the current layout would be beneath the clock in the first photograph and where the WH Smith cage is in the third. You'd probably get one gate each way plus a bi-directional accessible gate in there, and you'd be able to bypass the barriers by going through the cafe.

At the moment VT put a sign in the middle, and ask people to queue up on the left to be checked by one person in each direction. This blocks entrance to the cafe on one side, and the footbridge on the other.

The alternative would be seperate barriers - one in the gap to the left of the footbridge (provides access to platform 5 - see bottom picture view from other side below), one on the footbridge itself, and an L-shaped one along platform 1 which could be placed past the cafe's platform-side door, and meet the wall behind the lift.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Each has a link to the station plan, so you can take a look without going there to get a rough idea. Is this really affordable? I doubt it.

But then again can the railway really afford to lose revenue? The DfT has made it clear that improvements have to be funded through ticket sales so lets make a start in the right direction.

 

[AlterEgo]

No I'm quite happy with my current job! Surely the barrier will not let you pass unless you have bought a ticket? At least that is my experience of travelling on the railway.

Yes, a ticket. Not the correct ticket.

Barriers do not prevent fare evasion.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think (way in the back of my head) there are long term plans for a new entrance.

The space for barriers in the current layout would be beneath the clock in the first photograph and where the WH Smith cage is in the third. You'd probably get one gate each way plus a bi-directional accessible gate in there, and you'd be able to bypass the barriers by going through the cafe.

At the moment VT put a sign in the middle, and ask people to queue up on the left to be checked by one person in each direction. This blocks entrance to the cafe on one side, and the footbridge on the other.

The alternative would be seperate barriers - one in the gap to the left of the footbridge (provides access to platform 5 - see bottom picture view from other side below), one on the footbridge itself, and an L-shaped one along platform 1 which could be placed past the cafe's platform-side door, and meet the wall behind the lift.

Thanks for your help with this; you have clearly gone to a lot of trouble. At the end of the day if there are separate barriers at Oxford Street why shouldn't there be separate barriers at Wolverhampton? It seems to me that people are putting obstacles in place because they don't like change!

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, a ticket. Not the correct ticket.

Barriers do not prevent fare evasion.

Indeed. There is nothing stopping me (other than the on train guard) arriving at Darlington and asking for a single from Dinsdale (£2.30) when I've actually travelled from Longbeck (£6.80). People do the same around Leeds, for example asking for a ticket from Outwood rather than Wakefield.

Barriers do not prevent fare evasion they just ensure you have a ticket.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes, a ticket. Not the correct ticket.

Barriers do not prevent fare evasion.

No thats true but some money is better than no money! If guards don't have time to patrol a complete train after each stop than at least barriers will ensure that each passenger pays something. That is at least a start which the railway can build on.

 

[AlterEgo]

No thats true but some money is better than no money!

The point is, no it isn't, not always. You'd probably like Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston to be fully barriered. But that doesn't stop someone buying a Manchester-Ardwick and a South Hampstead-Euston ticket for pennies and travelling on a Virgin service from Manchester to London! Virgin won't even receive those pennies!

I am sure you will say the TM on the Virgin service will spot that - yes, if the tickets are checked! The answer lies in more extensive manual checking of tickets, by human beings who have brains are are capable of suspicion and common sense - unlike a barrier.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The point is, no it isn't, not always. You'd probably like Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston to be fully barriered. But that doesn't stop someone buying a Manchester-Ardwick and a South Hampstead-Euston ticket for pennies and travelling on a Virgin service from Manchester to London! Virgin won't even receive those pennies!

I am sure you will say the TM on the Virgin service will spot that - yes, if the tickets are checked! The answer lies in more extensive manual checking of tickets, by human beings who have brains are are capable of suspicion and common sense - unlike a barrier.

Yes I completely agree that there should be extensive manual checking of tickets but the whole basis (or at least partial basis) of this thread is that this is not always practical. So as a back up plan why not have automatic barriers?

Besides, if a passenger was to put their ticket through the barrier before they boarded the train this would prevent people short changing the system (as you high lighted above). I agree that barriers can't be introduced over night but we should at least make a start. You shouldn't be on the platform unless you have a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

You shouldn't be on the platform unless you have a ticket.

Really? I can think of a number of reasons why someone might legitimately be on a platform without a valid ticket.

The point is, barriers do not stop fare evasion. This is a fact! The dishonest people who travel into town with no ticket simply find other ways to evade the fare when barriers are installed. They don't become honest overnight.

So if barriers do not stop fare evasion, why have them?

 

[Schnellzug]

With regard to the problem of fare evasion:-

If self service ticket machines can be installed on the Matlock branch, I'm sure they could be fitted on your local line too Ian and I've no doubt that this would help with revenue collection. If passengers boarded the train ticket without a ticket they would face a penalty fare and a lesson would be learnt.

I would be interested to know how many LM stations in the West Midlands are fitted with ticket barriers. I've always failed to understand why some forum users don't like them as I've never once had a valid ticket rejected which is generally the main complaint.

because you can't come and go onto the platforms as you wish, that's why. You can only go through once either way, so if you want to go into the ticket Office or to shops or a buffet or whatever that might be on the other side of the barrier, what are you supposed to do then? Plus they're another example of the insidious spread of Machines rather than Humans, and there's something vaguely authoritarian about them, it makes stations rather reminscent of Airports with all their Machines that you have to queue up to go through.

And I'm afraid that the principle of "You Must buy a Ticket" that some operators make such a big thing of is really not a very big enticement to use the Railways. Far better to have a Human face checking tickets who is able to use some discretion when appropriate.
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Ok but at least passengers are buying a ticket, even if its off peak when it shouldn't be. And that surely saves the guard time as he's not having to use his machine to sell tickets.

to do what? That should be what they're there for, as a Human face of the railways, to assist customers' needs. On most modern stock guards can operate the Doors from any door position, they've even retro-fitted it to 150s in certain parts.
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In all honesty I've never travelled by train to Wolverhampton but could they not change the station layout in order to install the barriers? Surely "horribly crowded" is a price worth paying to ensure that everyone has paid for their journey?

really? Merciful heavens.