HS1 Closed - Eurostar

[Essexman]

We’re on a Eurostar from Brussels which has been stopped at Calais for 90 minutes as HS1 closed due to electrical problems.

Very little info from Eurostar but National Rail Enquiries suggests line will open at 14.30 earliest with delays until end of day.

Raises two questions:

1. Why was the possibility for Eurostar to divert onto the old route taken away?

2. Why do Eurostar give so little information to customers?
They must know at least what is on NRE website and presumably are kept further updated by Network Rail.

 

[HarryF]

The newer Eurostar trains (class 374/e320) are built to continental loading gauge, so are too big for the “classic” lines. The older trains (class 373/e300) have had their 3rd rail facility removed so are now unable to use the classic routes.
Also, if a Eurostar was sent off HS1 it would be very difficult to access St Pancras

 

[Essexman]

To add. NRE website just updated to say no trains until at least 16.30. No update for passengers on train.

 

[WizCastro197]

Southeastern says a points failure has been identified additionally, which is preventing trains between Ashford and Ebbsfleet further to the electricity supply failure.

Service disruption | Southeastern

If you are travelling you can find out the latest information about our services and see if there are any disruptions that might affect you.

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

Further to this, a fault has also been identified with a set of points, which allow trains to cross from one line to another, which means trains are currently unable to run between Ashford and Ebbsfleet whilst Network Rail teams work to fix the problem

 

[zwk500]

1. Why was the possibility for Eurostar to divert onto the old route taken away?

To add to @HarryF the third rail shoes were a pain on the continent as they kept getting torn off or striking signalling equipment. Once Eurostar gave up on the idea of keeping trains at Waterloo they weren't worth keeping. Also with expansion to Germany and the Netherlands in mind the e320s needed space for signalling and additional electrification requirements so dropping UK-spec AWS/TPWS massively helped on that front.

The only possible diversion without reversal (edit: this actually isn't possible without reversal somewhere) is coming off at Dollands Moor or Ashford and then going back on at Ebbsfleet, so if the problem is at the Eurotunnel Interface or north of Ebbsfleet the diversionary capability is pretty pointless.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

This particular failure is very rare, does anyone recall previous total power outage on HS1 of this scale? The NRE announcement could be read as an intermittent earthing fault, which couldn't be fully located during the night... but it might be something else eg. switches at the grid supply point. But an incident like this is (fortunately) very rare.

 

[Essexman]

The newer Eurostar trains (class 374/e320) are built to continental loading gauge, so are too big for the “classic” lines. The older trains (class 373/e300) have had their 3rd rail facility removed so are now unable to use the classic routes.
Also, if a Eurostar was sent off HS1 it would be very difficult to access St Pancr

We’re on the move now but NRE now saying HS1 closed until at least 18.30.
Any possibility we could be put on trains on classic line at Ashford?

 

[Silver Cobra]

Looks like that is the plan (changing onto another train at Ashford International), based on my interpretation of the information on the Eurostar website.

**EDIT: I was looking at the wrong direction, so please ignore this post

 

[zwk500]

We’re on the move now but NRE now saying HS1 closed until at least 18.30.
Any possibility we could be put on trains on classic line at Ashford?

2 Eurostars have now been despatched from St Pancras, and the trains waiting by Dollands Moor have started moving again. You may get lucky and stay on HS1. With Ashford's International terminal mothballed I guess transferring trains there would be the last resort.

 

[Essexman]

We’ve reached England. NRE saying HS1 closed until at least 18.30 but train manager saying estimated arrival time at St Pancras is 17.45.

 

[zwk500]

We’ve reached England. NRE saying HS1 closed until at least 18.30 but train manager saying estimated arrival time at St Pancras is 17.45.

Southeastern have just tweeted HS1 Reopened: https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/1667913558019940353?s=20

UPDATE: Trains are now able to run between Ebbsfleet and #AshfordInternational Trains across our High speed network may be revised or cancelled as we work to get your trains back on time. More information to come.

No word on the points failure at Ashford.

 

[thenorthern]

I know this is a hypothetical question but is it possible to use a locomotive to drag a class 373 in the event of a power outage in a similar way to how the Class 57s used to drag Pendolinos along the North Wales Coast Line?

 

[Benjwri]

No word on the points failure at Ashford.

Still in effect, trains having to run wrong line from Lenham to Ashford.

 

[43066]

We’re on the move now but NRE now saying HS1 closed until at least 18.30.
Any possibility we could be put on trains on classic line at Ashford?

The blocker to this would be lack of immigration controls which are present at St Pancras but essentially mothballed at Ashford. Also, can E320s yet stop at Ashford? They were unable to for ages due to signalling compatibility issues IIRC.

The newer Eurostar trains (class 374/e320) are built to continental loading gauge, so are too big for the “classic” lines. The older trains (class 373/e300) have had their 3rd rail facility removed so are now unable to use the classic routes.
Also, if a Eurostar was sent off HS1 it would be very difficult to access St Pancras

Also the lack of driver route knowledge.

 

[Krokodil]

The blocker to this would be lack of immigration controls which are present at St Pancras but essentially mothballed at Ashford.

Immigration isn't an issue - all onboard will have crossed the juxtaposed frontier before boarding the train. Customs on the other hand is an issue, though only really for those with something to declare.

Years back, passengers from a stricken Eurostar were crammed into a specially-chartered eight coach slammer, operated by Connex. The platform where the transfer took place had to be cordoned off because Eurostars were bonded for customs purposes.

 

[Failed Unit]

I understand all Eurostars can stop at Ashford, this was one of the reasons the mothballing has upset so many in Kent, the amount of money spent to enable all trains to call there.

It is definately a pain that Ashford can't be used for terminating services (although what is stopping it lack of boarder force as in theory everyone was cleared in Paris / Brussels). Getting them from Ashford on SouthEastern would be cosy.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The blocker to this would be lack of immigration controls which are present at St Pancras but essentially mothballed at Ashford. Also, can E320s yet stop at Ashford? They were unable to for ages due to signalling comparability issues IIRC.

No, not a major blocker. Only customs controls would need to be present on Schengen->UK journeys at Ashford, and in practice, the UK is barely controlling the customs border from the EU.

The bigger problem is if you're coming from St Pancras, because passengers will already legally have been cleared into the Schengen area, with the UK informed of their departure. While it's not a dealbreaker right now as there still aren't systematic records kept of departures from Schengen, it might be more complicated once the Schengen EES comes into force. I haven't looked at the specifications in detail though, so it's possible that their records can be simply linked to the passengers on a given Eurostar and the 'entry' wiped.

It is definately a pain that Ashford can't be used for terminating services (although what is stopping it lack of boarder force as in theory everyone was cleared in Paris / Brussels). Getting them from Ashford on SouthEastern would be cosy.

Border Force by themselves are really not a problem, as it's only customs controls that need to be carried out, and it's not mandatory for their presence.

 

[Essexman]

Thanks to everyone for useful and interesting comments.
We’re back in London now.
Looking at Twitter people saying they won’t use Eurostar again - have they never experienced delays with air travel?
We’ve just completed return trip to Prague all by train of course.

 

[zwk500]

Thanks to everyone for useful and interesting comments.
We’re back in London now.

Glad to hear you've got back ok. Hope you can still complete your onward journey.

Looking at Twitter people saying they won’t use Eurostar again - have they never experienced delays with air travel?

They have, and presumably said the same thing when they had delays with Ryanair. Although a lot of comments online referencing very poor communication from Eurostar which would be a fair objection to using them again.

 

[43066]

Immigration isn't an issue - all onboard will have crossed the juxtaposed frontier before boarding the train. Customs on the other hand is an issue, though only really for those with something to declare.

Fair point. Interesting comment re. historical Connex service. Many years ago I recall taking a Eurostar which was sent around the Catford Loop!

I understand all Eurostars can stop at Ashford, this was one of the reasons the mothballing has upset so many in Kent, the amount of money spent to enable all trains to call there.

E320 sets were unable to for a long period. I’ve heard nothing to suggest that isn’t still the case.

and in practice, the UK is barely controlling the customs border from the EU.

Well, if we’re being strictly accurate, we are barely controlling our border full stop. I doubt a few Eurostar passengers would stem the tide!

Thanks to everyone for useful and interesting comments.
We’re back in London now.

Good to hear.

We’ve just completed return trip to Prague all by train of course.

Quite an epic trip!

 

[notadriver]

I know this is a hypothetical question but is it possible to use a locomotive to drag a class 373 in the event of a power outage in a similar way to how the Class 57s used to drag Pendolinos along the North Wales Coast Line?

You mean dragged along hs1 ? I don’t think 373s can be accommodated anymore at Waterloo ?

 

[zwk500]

E320 sets were unable to for a long period.

Yes, they were initially unable to call because Eurostar didn't want to bother rebuilding the platforms, but they spent a large amount of money to resolve the problems (which may also have been signalling related with the KVB and AWS/TPWS on the same lines) as there was a reasonable Ashford 'Channel commuter' market, IIRC largely to Brussels.

 

[43066]

Yes, they were initially unable to call because Eurostar didn't want to bother rebuilding the platforms, but they spent a large amount of money to resolve the problems (which may also have been signalling related with the KVB and AWS/TPWS on the same lines) as there was a reasonable Ashford 'Channel commuter' market, IIRC largely to Brussels.

Has that been resolved? The Covid mothballing somewhat overtook matters and Eurostar don’t seem to be in any rush to reinstate Ashford calls.

 

[zwk500]

Has that been resolved? The Covid mothballing somewhat overtook matters and Eurostar don’t seem to be in any rush to reinstate Ashford calls.

Yes, it was all resolved and Ashford was quite happy to have it's services back in 2018. £10m spent on upgrades to both platform and signalling officially opened by none other than Messr. Grayling on April 3, 2018. So they got about 2 years worth out of it before Covid shut it all down. Goodness only knows what the de-mothballing bill will be now.

Ashford station’s international future looks bright as first modern high-speed train calls en-route to Paris

The first in the fleet of brand new high-speed passenger trains to call at Ashford International was met on the platform today (Tuesday 3 April) by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

 

[43066]

Yes, it was all resolved and Ashford was quite happy to have it's services back in 2018. £10m spent on upgrades to both platform and signalling officially opened by none other than Messr. Grayling on April 3, 2018. So they got about 2 years worth out of it before Covid shut it all down. Goodness only knows what the de-mothballing bill will be now.

Ashford station’s international future looks bright as first modern high-speed train calls en-route to Paris

The first in the fleet of brand new high-speed passenger trains to call at Ashford International was met on the platform today (Tuesday 3 April) by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Thanks. Kudos for the superb knowledge demonstrated there, as always!

Goodness only knows what the de-mothballing bill will be now.

Indeed!

 

[zwk500]

Thanks. Kudos for the superb knowledge demonstrated there, as always!

An advantage of having gone back to studying - I've become quite proficient in finding lots of information very quickly Shame my grades only consider how well I analyse said information but that's the way of things...

 

[Chris Hamilton]

We’ve reached England. NRE saying HS1 closed until at least 18.30 but train manager saying estimated arrival time at St Pancras is 17.45.

NRE will get their estimates from teams on the ground via Network Rail Incident Control.

As a fault response technician myself, who regularly has to give estimates to control via my crystal ball, it doesn’t hurt to err on the side of caution (overestimate). If you tell ICC a firm time, they will build their plans around that. If you finish earlier than the time you gave, that’s a bonus.

Every tech has a rough idea of what could be causing a fault to happen, but the rectification varies wildly. Also, even when a fault is found, it’s impossible to carry every single spare part, so someone may have had to return to base in Gillingham to retrieve a part, or even have it sent from farther afield. I personally have received parts in Edinburgh loaded onto a train in Derby.

 

[randyrippley]

You'd think there would be a fleet of electric RRBs on standby for days like this.
With a bit of thought the tunnel could have been built with tram track, allowing buses to drive through

 

[Hadders]

This would explain the large Eurostar queues at ST Pancras when I passed through earlier.

A divert to Waterloo sounds attractive but it's just not going to happen:

No 3rd rail capability on Eurostar trains any longer
Lack of route knowledge
Platforms at Waterloo not available for Eurostar use
No customers or Border Control at Waterloo

Originally Kensington Olympia was the emergency detrainment point for Eurostar if Waterloo was unavailable, and there are some reports of trains being sent there. In reality given the problem of dumping people at Kensington Olympia with little or no onward travel it's probably best for the trains to stay put until the line is re-opened.

Waterloo International: Originally intended to be permanent or not?

Thus video from 2 years ago looks around the old station, and shows how much of it has been untouched since Eurostar left

www.railforums.co.uk

Waterloo International: Originally intended to be permanent or not?

Hello all. Was Waterloo International conceived as a permanent Eurostar home when build? The Low hight between train and shed suggedsu no as it does not seem to have the hight for a 25kv wire. On the other hand the architectual effort suggests yes. Also the 10 years of non service does not...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

You'd think there would be a fleet of electric RRBs on standby for days like this.
With a bit of thought the tunnel could have been built with tram track, allowing buses to drive through

The other day we were discussing a tunnel under the Atlantic. So that doesn’t seem too outlandish!

An advantage of having gone back to studying - I've become quite proficient in finding lots of information very quickly Shame my grades only consider how well I analyse said information but that's the way of things...

Well your approach to information gathering certainly pays dividends in terms of how you come across on here. It’s refreshing to have such an articulate, obviously intelligent, and highly knowledgable poster making such excellent contributions to the forum.

Keep it up!

Studying is a cathartic process, and should be something you do for yourself, primarily. I’d do my law degree all over again, just for the arguing.