HS1 Closed - Eurostar

[zwk500]

don’t the 92s have TVM430 fitted ?

92s aren't very much help if the power's off, and if you've got power then the 373/374 fleet will have rather fewer problems. But yes they do. I presume they're cleared into St Pancras although I've never checked.

 

[Deepgreen]

92s aren't very much help if the power's off, and if you've got power then the 373/374 fleet will have rather fewer problems. But yes they do. I presume they're cleared into St Pancras although I've never checked.

A couple of 88s (if cleared) might be useful, but it's costly to have such 'Thunderbirds' unused for 99.9% of the time.

 

[zwk500]

A couple of 88s (if cleared) might be useful, but it's costly to have such 'Thunderbirds' unused for 99.9% of the time.

Fitting TVM to them really wouldn't be a sensible use of money. Even if you are just fitting the TVM aerials and interfacing through ETCS.

 

[Krokodil]

I'd be impressed to see an 88 (on diesel) attempt to drag a 374. I suppose that it might get moving some time before the OHLE gets switched back on. Maybe.

 

[jayah]

In Schengen? Nothing extraordinary. The inflexibility of the UK Border Force is not repeated in Schengen, where there are procedures in place for dealing with this type of situation. At a push, they could allow all the EU passengers to leave freely (because all that is required is a visual check of identity documents), whereas non-EU passengers could simply be controlled individually.

But with Schengen, it would be enough to simply put people on buses with someone from the French police to ensure the bus was secure.

Doesn't the border control facilities still exist at Calais-Frethun? It's hard to imagine that they've been dismantled, given how underused the station is.

Schengen insist on wet stamping passports, despite scanning them.

UK Border was flexible in not adopting stamping, or exit checks and allowing EU nationals to use the e-passport gates - all to keep the border moving.

All of the problems at St Pancras and Dover have been caused by the inflexibility of the Schengen border controls.

Rules is rules.

 

[rheingold103]

92s aren't very much help if the power's off, and if you've got power then the 373/374 fleet will have rather fewer problems. But yes they do. I presume they're cleared into St Pancras although I've never checked.

92s aren't fitted with KVB, the Train Protection System installed in St Pancras and approaches.

 

[zwk500]

92s aren't fitted with KVB, the Train Protection System installed in St Pancras and approaches.

Cheers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Schengen insist on wet stamping passports, despite scanning them.

UK Border was flexible in not adopting stamping, or exit checks and allowing EU nationals to use the e-passport gates - all to keep the border moving.

All of the problems at St Pancras and Dover have been caused by the inflexibility of the Schengen border controls.

Rules is rules.

I have no knowledge in this area, but is that right? Given that we were never in Schengen, and never previously had to have passports stamped. Something must have occurred that changed the UKs status outwith Schengen…

 

[Benjwri]

I have no knowledge in this area, but is that right? Given that we were never in Schengen, and never previously had to have passports stamped. Something must have occurred that changed the UKs status outwith Schengen…

In simple terms we were never a member of the Schengen zone, which is why you had to have your passport checked when entering it, however as a member of the EU we ha freedom of movement so checks were ‘less strict’ because there wasn’t a real consideration of entering illegally

 

[Sm5]

Not 'your on your own' , by all accounts they were with several hundred passengers.

and then the buffet car runs out of food and water, even bottled water.

Ive been on eurostar in a crisis, Toilets minged, the smell went through the carriage.

ive the lowest of the low opinion of eurostar in a crisis. They simply dont care at all.

if you want pictures of eurostar when it goes wrong, please ask, they are disgusting… blood remains on the sinks in the standard premier bathrooms even that someone couldnt clean because the sinks had no water.

i’d have gladly taken a ferry option than stare at the middle of nowhere for hours, i’d even walked myself there than have to smell someone elses abloutions. The onboard staff didnt have to, they simply went extinct… The only response was angry messages to twitter.

when eurostar goes pop, all you are is a problem that prevents them going home on time.

Airlines simply cancel flights, its inconvienient, but its simpler, healthier and easier to recover…

 

[zwk500]

In simple terms we were never a member of the Schengen zone, which is why you had to have your passport checked when entering it, however as a member of the EU we ha freedom of movement so checks were ‘less strict’ because there wasn’t a real consideration of entering illegally

The important thing is that because of freedom of movement the entry date didn't need to be recorded because we could come and go as we pleased.
Now that UK citizens aren't allowed to do that, the EU needs a method of being able to verify somebody has not overstayed their visa when the only check available might be a visual one. The UK has a much more controllable border because to enter the country you must travel on a commercial service of some kind (bar NI/ROI border).
And UK citizens have been identified deliberately overstaying the tourist limits and then having surprised pikachu faces when the Spanish border turns them away again. Again, the EU and Schengen zone has very little motivation to be helpful to the UK on this.

 

[RT4038]

and then the buffet car runs out of food and water, even bottled water.

As is inevitable, depending on length of delay of course. Happens when aeroplanes have been loaded, moved away from the terminal and are then delayed from take off so some reason.

Ive been on eurostar in a crisis, Toilets minged, the smell went through the carriage.

Yes, it is going to happen. But how often? not very.

ive the lowest of the low opinion of eurostar in a crisis. They simply dont care at all.

It is not that they don't care, there is little that can be done but wait it out.

if you want pictures of eurostar when it goes wrong, please ask, they are disgusting… blood remains on the sinks in the standard premier bathrooms even that someone couldnt clean because the sinks had no water.

Life isn't all roses, I agree. But how often do these sort of incidents occur? Unpleasant as it may be, the nature of the mode of transportation, on this particular operation, this will happen occasionally.

i’d have gladly taken a ferry option than stare at the middle of nowhere for hours, i’d even walked myself there than have to smell someone elses abloutions. The onboard staff didnt have to, they simply went extinct… The only response was angry messages to twitter.

I don't think you would. There is no practicable ferry solution. E* are only going to disembark you to the track as an extreme option. I am not surprised the onboard staff become extinct - what would you be doing in similar circumstances with a hostile trainload of passengers all with their (probably impractical) demands which the staff have no means of dealing with. Eventually, if transit through the tunnel is not possible, and depending on the circumstances, you are going to be returned to your starting point. Being bussed to ferries is just not going to happen.

Airlines simply cancel flights, its inconvienient, but its simpler, healthier and easier to recover…

E* also simply cancel trips. E* are land based and have much more infrastructure failure risks mid journey than an airline. However, airline mid trip equipment failure can be catastrophic compared to the rail option.

No doubt E* could have all sorts of mitigating actions - trains carrying sufficient food and water for every passenger for every eventuality and staff onboard to serve, helicopters to bring mobile toilets, fleets of coaches on standby, spare ferries to cross the channel, mobile immigration squads, but the cost of this is going to be reflected in ticket prices, which are already on the high side.

Both E* and the airlines have service meltdowns. Both are complained about bitterly - because nobody likes any inconvenience, even though they wouldn't be able to do any better themselves given the constraints. If you think that the airlines do it better, and you think the occurrences on E* are so often and so bad, then travel with the airlines.

I have travelled E* many, many times and had nothing more than insignificant delays. Maybe I am just lucky. I have heard of other people suffering longer delays, but never happened to me. I have, however had horrendous delays on railways and airlines elsewhere, with all sorts of unpleasant experiences as you describe and worse. But one needs to be philosophical with life that these things will happen from time to time.

 

[Deepgreen]

In summary, then, it seems that there is no feasible solution to the problem of stranding owing to power loss on HS1, and the supposedly high(-ish)-end operation is as bad of the rest of the railway in providing useful information in a crisis, even though passengers can get that information themselves!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2023 ==

As is inevitable, depending on length of delay of course. Happens when aeroplanes have been loaded, moved away from the terminal and are then delayed from take off so some reason.


Yes, it is going to happen. But how often? not very.


It is not that they don't care, there is little that can be done but wait it out.


Life isn't all roses, I agree. But how often do these sort of incidents occur? Unpleasant as it may be, the nature of the mode of transportation, on this particular operation, this will happen occasionally.


I don't think you would. There is no practicable ferry solution. E* are only going to disembark you to the track as an extreme option. I am not surprised the onboard staff become extinct - what would you be doing in similar circumstances with a hostile trainload of passengers all with their (probably impractical) demands which the staff have no means of dealing with. Eventually, if transit through the tunnel is not possible, and depending on the circumstances, you are going to be returned to your starting point. Being bussed to ferries is just not going to happen.



E* also simply cancel trips. E* are land based and have much more infrastructure failure risks mid journey than an airline. However, airline mid trip equipment failure can be catastrophic compared to the rail option.

No doubt E* could have all sorts of mitigating actions - trains carrying sufficient food and water for every passenger for every eventuality and staff onboard to serve, helicopters to bring mobile toilets, fleets of coaches on standby, spare ferries to cross the channel, mobile immigration squads, but the cost of this is going to be reflected in ticket prices, which are already on the high side.

Both E* and the airlines have service meltdowns. Both are complained about bitterly - because nobody likes any inconvenience, even though they wouldn't be able to do any better themselves given the constraints. If you think that the airlines do it better, and you think the occurrences on E* are so often and so bad, then travel with the airlines.

I have travelled E* many, many times and had nothing more than insignificant delays. Maybe I am just lucky. I have heard of other people suffering longer delays, but never happened to me. I have, however had horrendous delays on railways and airlines elsewhere, with all sorts of unpleasant experiences as you describe and worse. But one needs to be philosophical with life that these things will happen from time to time.

All true, but it really is inexcusable to (apparently) fail to provide information to passengers that they can gain from using their own phones, etc!

 

[zwk500]

In summary, then, it seems that there is no feasible solution to the problem of stranding owing to power loss on HS1

There are 3 feasible solutions: wait, get the eurotunnel shunters out, or cancel and put passengers on Coach/Flights.

 

[RT4038]

In summary, then, it seems that there is no feasible solution to the problem of stranding owing to power loss on HS1, and the supposedly high(-ish)-end operation is as bad of the rest of the railway in providing useful information in a crisis, even though passengers can get that information themselves!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2023 ==


All true, but it really is inexcusable to (apparently) fail to provide information to passengers that they can gain from using their own phones, etc!

Not trying to excuse that ; as you point out 'the railway' has patches of this almost wherever you go. [Thinking about an issue I had with the Swedish Railways on a similar vein, for instance, but singling out any particular administration is probably unfair]. Providing the information via passenger phones is as good as any, so why the big upset on this subject I really don't know.

 

[Krokodil]

Schengen insist on wet stamping passports, despite scanning them.

UK Border was flexible in not adopting stamping, or exit checks and allowing EU nationals to use the e-passport gates - all to keep the border moving.

All of the problems at St Pancras and Dover have been caused by the inflexibility of the Schengen border controls.

Rules is rules.

I've found that it's not St Pancras that's the issue, it's Brussels Midi where queues seem to become unmanageable. At St P they do let UK nationals enter Schengen using e-gates with someone standing beyond them with the stamp. The Belgians on the other hand have only installed ABC gates in Brussels Airport; Brussels Midi being solely reliant upon manual checks for exiting Schengen, before you get to the UK Frontier which is equipped with ePassport gates.

 

[Sm5]

As is inevitable, depending on length of delay of course. Happens when aeroplanes have been loaded, moved away from the terminal and are then delayed from take off so some reason.


Yes, it is going to happen. But how often? not very.


It is not that they don't care, there is little that can be done but wait it out.


Life isn't all roses, I agree. But how often do these sort of incidents occur? Unpleasant as it may be, the nature of the mode of transportation, on this particular operation, this will happen occasionally.


I don't think you would. There is no practicable ferry solution. E* are only going to disembark you to the track as an extreme option. I am not surprised the onboard staff become extinct - what would you be doing in similar circumstances with a hostile trainload of passengers all with their (probably impractical) demands which the staff have no means of dealing with. Eventually, if transit through the tunnel is not possible, and depending on the circumstances, you are going to be returned to your starting point. Being bussed to ferries is just not going to happen.



E* also simply cancel trips. E* are land based and have much more infrastructure failure risks mid journey than an airline. However, airline mid trip equipment failure can be catastrophic compared to the rail option.

No doubt E* could have all sorts of mitigating actions - trains carrying sufficient food and water for every passenger for every eventuality and staff onboard to serve, helicopters to bring mobile toilets, fleets of coaches on standby, spare ferries to cross the channel, mobile immigration squads, but the cost of this is going to be reflected in ticket prices, which are already on the high side.

Both E* and the airlines have service meltdowns. Both are complained about bitterly - because nobody likes any inconvenience, even though they wouldn't be able to do any better themselves given the constraints. If you think that the airlines do it better, and you think the occurrences on E* are so often and so bad, then travel with the airlines.

I have travelled E* many, many times and had nothing more than insignificant delays. Maybe I am just lucky. I have heard of other people suffering longer delays, but never happened to me. I have, however had horrendous delays on railways and airlines elsewhere, with all sorts of unpleasant experiences as you describe and worse. But one needs to be philosophical with life that these things will happen from time to time.

I appreciate your loyalty to Eurostar and note that youve never experienced problems yourself.

I have had long delays on 4 occasions, including a disney trip, where you can imagine the tired and ansty kids throughout the train would add to the uncomfortability.

I suspect once you experience it, your views and loyalty may change. Ive never recieved any delay repay either on Eurostar.

One delay was 4 hours in Brussels, the first two hours were quite pleasant.. I had an empty carriage to myself in midi platform. i had a glass or two of wine, and got fresh air on a hot summers day by detraining to the platform as I knew we werent going anywhere fast. Meanwhile I was reading of a twitter war against Eurostar down stairs as train after train got axed and passengers were getting quite annoyed and the concourse quite full.

Then they loaded up 2 further passengers loads into it during the next two hours and we eventually left full to standing throughout And it was like the last train from Bengal, some passengers fainted at St Pancras due to perspiration. Iirc the train was further delayed as someone forced open a door, and recall a window had been broken on arrival.

you are correct though, other modes of transport do exist.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Schengen insist on wet stamping passports, despite scanning them.

No, they don't insist. It's not an absolute requirement to stamp passports, only that it should be done.

All of the problems at St Pancras and Dover have been caused by the inflexibility of the Schengen border controls.

The problems have been caused by infrastructure that wasn't designed for checking large amounts of non-EU citizens. Nothing more, nothing less. The infrastructure at St Pancras was designed for quick visual checks, as was the frontier control building in Dover where the PAF were frequently nowhere to be found pre-Brexit.

What happened was that as Schengen has moved towards UK standards of border control, suddenly the previous infrastructure simply cannot cope with the amount of non-EU citizens using it.

In summary, then, it seems that there is no feasible solution to the problem of stranding owing to power loss on HS1

One possible option could be to unload passengers at the car/truck shuttle platforms so they can take a coach from there. I'm not sure however if the Eurostar trains are able to be used on the shuttle loop infrastructure, although I don't see why not. Passengers from the UK could clear border control in Folkestone too.

But I think there's no real need for an alternative, given that Eurostar and HS1 works well in general.

 

[jayah]

No, they don't insist. It's not an absolute requirement to stamp passports, only that it should be done.



The problems have been caused by infrastructure that wasn't designed for checking large amounts of non-EU citizens. Nothing more, nothing less. The infrastructure at St Pancras was designed for quick visual checks, as was the frontier control building in Dover where the PAF were frequently nowhere to be found pre-Brexit.

What happened was that as Schengen has moved towards UK standards of border control, suddenly the previous infrastructure simply cannot cope with the amount of non-EU citizens using it.



One possible option could be to unload passengers at the car/truck shuttle platforms so they can take a coach from there. I'm not sure however if the Eurostar trains are able to be used on the shuttle loop infrastructure, although I don't see why not. Passengers from the UK could clear border control in Folkestone too.

But I think there's no real need for an alternative, given that Eurostar and HS1 works well in general.

There are no circumstances in which a Schengen stamp can be waived. Even in countries allowing UK citizens to use e-gates the passport must be stamped as well.

In a manual control, they are also scanned, as well as stamped, which is not necessary but Schegen still insists on it.

St Pancras, frankly wasn't designed for the e320, it was at the limit with the original Eurostar stock which had far fewer seats. Handbag shops took priority.

UK took a pragmatic approach and designed the controls around the art of the possible e.g. no stamping. Schengen did not, hence the problems.

Schegen has not moved towards UK practices, they have never been close and the much postponed biometric visa waiver scheme is another example of divergence.

 

[urpert]

No, they don't insist. It's not an absolute requirement to stamp passports, only that it should be done.



The problems have been caused by infrastructure that wasn't designed for checking large amounts of non-EU citizens. Nothing more, nothing less. The infrastructure at St Pancras was designed for quick visual checks, as was the frontier control building in Dover where the PAF were frequently nowhere to be found pre-Brexit.

What happened was that as Schengen has moved towards UK standards of border control, suddenly the previous infrastructure simply cannot cope with the amount of non-EU citizens using it.



One possible option could be to unload passengers at the car/truck shuttle platforms so they can take a coach from there. I'm not sure however if the Eurostar trains are able to be used on the shuttle loop infrastructure, although I don't see why not. Passengers from the UK could clear border control in Folkestone too.

But I think there's no real need for an alternative, given that Eurostar and HS1 works well in general.

I don’t know if non-Eurotunnel trains are cleared to access the terminal lines, but in any case it would be much easier to detrain everyone at Frethun straight onto a coach which is then waved through the terminal controls by the PAF and boards the tourist shuttles as normal. Still unlikely to happen given the amount of joined-up thinking required.

 

[30907]

I don’t know if non-Eurotunnel trains are cleared to access the terminal lines, but in any case it would be much easier to detrain everyone at Frethun straight onto a coach which is then waved through the terminal controls by the PAF and boards the tourist shuttles as normal. Still unlikely to happen given the amount of joined-up thinking required.

Think that's 18 coaches

 

[urpert]

Think that's 18 coaches

Well yes, making it even more impractical.

 

[zwk500]

One possible option could be to unload passengers at the car/truck shuttle platforms so they can take a coach from there. I'm not sure however if the Eurostar trains are able to be used on the shuttle loop infrastructure, although I don't see why not. Passengers from the UK could clear border control in Folkestone too.

Platform gauge will be an issue - The shuttle terminal platforms are 1,100mm to allow Ro-Ro boarding, whereas e320s/374s are designed for a 760mm platform height. This may be manageable so long as the physical platform structrue doesn't infringe on the train loading gauge with the doors open (which I imagine it should, as the Shuttle cars are presumably wider than UIC GC), so the issue would be the combined vertical/horizontal gaps and mitigations.

You would also have the issue of only being able to access the terminal loops from the tunnel itself. A train trapped at Frethun would need to run to Cheriton to return.

 

[IanXC]

There are no circumstances in which a Schengen stamp can be waived. Even in countries allowing UK citizens to use e-gates the passport must be stamped as well.

In a manual control, they are also scanned, as well as stamped, which is not necessary but Schegen still insists on it.

St Pancras, frankly wasn't designed for the e320, it was at the limit with the original Eurostar stock which had far fewer seats. Handbag shops took priority.

UK took a pragmatic approach and designed the controls around the art of the possible e.g. no stamping. Schengen did not, hence the problems.

Schegen has not moved towards UK practices, they have never been close and the much postponed biometric visa waiver scheme is another example of divergence.

Schengen has always had a standard for 'Schengen-rest of EU' and 'Schengen-rest of the world'. Historically I have seen quotes of Schengen state border agencies referring to the (UK/Ireland) Common Travel Area as the 'inner keep'.

At the time of Brexit the UK government made clear that they wanted a 'third country' relationship... and that is what we have now got, hence requiring evidence of entry and exit dates etc.

 

[yorksrob]

HS1 was closed for engineering works yesterday.

Not sure how many passengers would have been attracted by the RRB to Ashford from Ebsfleet, given the train service from Charing Cross was fully up and running.

 

[zwk500]

HS1 was closed for engineering works yesterday.

Not sure how many passengers would have been attracted by the RRB to Ashford from Ebsfleet, given the train service from Charing Cross was fully up and running.

It depends where people are travelling to and from; the HS service via the Kent Coast and joining at Ebbsfleet was running, and there's only so many contingency plans you can make. The odd sunday of disruption is not too bad in the scheme of things. Especially if they got a nice air conditioned coach for a relatively simple motorway run.

 

[yorksrob]

It depends where people are travelling to and from; the HS service via the Kent Coast and joining at Ebbsfleet was running, and there's only so many contingency plans you can make. The odd sunday of disruption is not too bad in the scheme of things. Especially if they got a nice air conditioned coach for a relatively simple motorway run.

I'd prefer a nice air conditioned electrostar !

 

[zwk500]

I'd prefer a nice air conditioned electrostar !

Again, it depends where you're going! A nice air conditioned electrostar but then having to jump on the tube would be less appealing than being able to make my connection in greater comfort at Stratford or the 3 termini on Euston Road. Although given the chance of a service bus if taking the train the long way round took too long I'd drive to Ebbsfleet rather than risk getting a service double-decker.

 

[185]

I do hope the wealthy private owners (concession holders) of HS1 face a hefty financial penalty for the failure of their infrastructure. If the DfT cannot get them through Eurostar, they certainly should for the disruption to OLRs SouthEastern.

 

[zwk500]

I do hope the wealthy private owners (concession holders) of HS1 face a hefty financial penalty for the failure of their infrastructure. If the DfT cannot get them through Eurostar, they certainly should for the disruption to OLRs SouthEastern.

The UK Govt stakes in Eurostar and HS1 were sold to the same Canadian Pension fund. But yes, there is a compensation regime for failing to provide the required infrastructure, the Track Access agreements are on HS1's website.