HS2 Approved

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HS2 has passed it's third reading in the House of Commons by 399 votes to 42 against
 
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Altnabreac

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Excellent news. Really seems to be gaining momentum across the board. With plans for Northern Powerhouse Rail and High Speed Rail Scotland gaining traction as well we are well on our way to a national network.
 

The Planner

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Still needs Royal Assent to give them the powers to build it though so it isn't approved yet.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's also only Phase 1 (London-Birmingham/Lichfield).
But at least the resistance to the idea in principle should now diminish.
As we have seen from the Ordsall Chord saga (apparently resolved today, as it happens), there will still be many hurdles before (and after) the diggers go in.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Oh god no.
Cuts to public spending are to become terrible by 2020 and yet they can afford around £50billion for this scheme.
It's been proven that HS2 Ltd has tried to hide the facts before, and has been spreading mis-information.

HS2 is a huge gamble, for these reasons:
1, it's high cost is hard to justify.
2, it's not going to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
3, it will deepen the North-South divide (their own report says London gains most).
4, it is based on outdated timesavings on all lines.
5, Scotland/North England to London services etc, will likely divert via HS2, possibly reducing the range of long distance trains on existing mainlines.
6, many places across the country will suffer economic strain according to the report they tried hiding.
7, maglevs and hyperloops are upcoming technology that's been predicted to be faster and cheaper but weren't explored fully.
8, the locations of many stations are not ideal (Toton/Man Airport/Meadowhall, etc).
9, freight is ignored by the scheme, an older plan to rebuild a similar route to Great Central's London to Manchester line showed freight would have a bigger impact.
10, the High Speed UK website has a much better scheme which will provide a full national network for less, why isn't this considered instead?

HS2 is just about expanding London's commuter belt and nothing else.
There's even doubt over trains from Nottingham stopping at Birmingham now.
The whole scheme isn't planned out yet, and in many cases the plans are terrible.
 

Ironside

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It's also only Phase 1 (London-Birmingham/Lichfield).
But at least the resistance to the idea in principle should now diminish.
As we have seen from the Ordsall Chord saga (apparently resolved today, as it happens), there will still be many hurdles before (and after) the diggers go in.

Yes, there will be hurdles put in at every stage. But the more stages are passed and built the easier it should get.
 

Haydn1971

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Cuts to public spending are to become terrible by 2020 and yet they can afford around £50billion for this scheme.

Simple - because public services are generally revenue costs, so burns money in UK.plc's wallet, where as building infrastructure is a capital investment, so makes money for UK.plc
 

najaB

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Oh god no.
Cuts to public spending are to become terrible by 2020 and yet they can afford around £50billion for this scheme.
Where do you suppose the vast majority of that £50B is going? That's right, into the pay packets of the thousands of people who will make HS2 a reality.
 

quantinghome

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Oh god no.
Cuts to public spending are to become terrible by 2020 and yet they can afford around £50billion for this scheme.
It's been proven that HS2 Ltd has tried to hide the facts before, and has been spreading mis-information.

HS2 is a huge gamble, for these reasons:
1, it's high cost is hard to justify.
2, it's not going to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
3, it will deepen the North-South divide (their own report says London gains most).
4, it is based on outdated timesavings on all lines.
5, Scotland/North England to London services etc, will likely divert via HS2, possibly reducing the range of long distance trains on existing mainlines.
6, many places across the country will suffer economic strain according to the report they tried hiding.
7, maglevs and hyperloops are upcoming technology that's been predicted to be faster and cheaper but weren't explored fully.
8, the locations of many stations are not ideal (Toton/Man Airport/Meadowhall, etc).
9, freight is ignored by the scheme, an older plan to rebuild a similar route to Great Central's London to Manchester line showed freight would have a bigger impact.
10, the High Speed UK website has a much better scheme which will provide a full national network for less, why isn't this considered instead?

HS2 is just about expanding London's commuter belt and nothing else.
There's even doubt over trains from Nottingham stopping at Birmingham now.
The whole scheme isn't planned out yet, and in many cases the plans are terrible.

Trying to work out your motivation for posting this. All the points have been debated many times on this site and elsewhere. Do you imagine this will convince anyone, or do you just want your opinion to be "out there"?
 

6Gman

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7, maglevs and hyperloops are upcoming technology that's been predicted to be faster and cheaper but weren't explored fully.

Some of us are old enough to remember when the country was going to be crisscrossed by a network of inter-city helicopter routes, and even predictions of nuclear-powered trains (I kid you not!).

Curiously steel wheel on steel rail on bogie carriages around 60-70 feet long still seems the best option.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Trying to work out your motivation for posting this. All the points have been debated many times on this site and elsewhere. Do you imagine this will convince anyone, or do you just want your opinion to be "out there"?

My motivation is simple, HS2 is not the best scheme out there, it's controversal for many reasons regardless of what happened in a debate HS2 does pose problems and it's highly questionable if it will be as rosey as predicted.

The investment would be better spent on line reopenings, longer platforms and trains, new tramways etc across the whole UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Where do you suppose the vast majority of that £50B is going? That's right, into the pay packets of the thousands of people who will make HS2 a reality.

Yes, similar to most investment. But when it's on this scale where is it coming from? Everyone in the country in a time of severe cuts to bus services.
It's like robbing Leicester to pay Nottingham.
 

Domh245

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My motivation is simple, HS2 is not the best scheme out there, it's controversal for many reasons regardless of what happened in a debate HS2 does pose problems and it's highly questionable if it will be as rosey as predicted.

Hmm, I don't know. Thousands of professionals with lots of expertise submitting evidence and proposals to MPs, alongside people who oppose the scheme, eventually leading to this outcome with all of the evidence. Or someone on an internet forum, and a few oddballs in HSUK. I wonder who is more likely to be correct.
 

AE

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7, maglevs and hyperloops are upcoming technology that's been predicted to be faster and cheaper but weren't explored fully.

That's hilarious - you seem to have swallowed the Hyperloop hype, hook, line and sinker. It's called Hyperloop for a reason. It's quite literally a billionaire's pipe dream (no pun intended). If it ever works at all, which is a big if, it will only be after a very, long and costly development cycle or cycles. And since it's not even designed or developed yet, all those cost 'estimates' are pretty much complete guesses rather than estimates. That's before the fact that a pipe on legs stretching from London to Birmingham and beyond would give the NIMBYs apoplexy and the over-estimated number of passengers carried per hour is still a fraction of that of high speed rail.

As for cost, £50 billion spent over 20 or more years is perfectly affordable. The government spent £750 billion last year alone. In fact, the government claim that the deficit will have been eliminated by 2020 before the bulk of the spending actually arises. And don't forget that the £50 billion includes a large contingency anyway and will not all be spent in the first year. Add to that, the fact that the line once built could be sold or leased to mitigate the cost and it becomes even more affordable.

Patrick McLoughlin's said in his speech during the HS2 debate - "The cost of HS2 equates to around 0.14% of UK GDP in the Spending Review period."

In other words, during the time that the £50 billion is spent, the UK will earn £35,714 billion or £35.714 trillion (£50 billion / 0.0014), which puts the £50 billion into some sort of perspective.
 

RPM

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Great news. Despite a well-funded anti-HS2 campaign, the voice of the rail industry has been listened to. There may still be some tweaks and revisions to the Phase 1 planning, and if it helps those who are genuinely negatively impacted by the new works, then that is a very good thing. However, we can now fully dismiss the objections of the anti-rail lobby, the NIMBYS and other assorted idiots who have opposed HS2. Their miasma of lies and misinformation came to nothing in the end.
 

Blamethrower

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Great news. Despite a well-funded anti-HS2 campaign, the voice of the rail industry has been listened to. There may still be some tweaks and revisions to the Phase 1 planning, and if it helps those who are genuinely negatively impacted by the new works, then that is a very good thing. However, we can now fully dismiss the objections of the anti-rail lobby, the NIMBYS and other assorted idiots who have opposed HS2. Their miasma of lies and misinformation came to nothing in the end.

Amen to that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My motivation is simple, HS2 is not the best scheme out there, it's controversal for many reasons regardless of what happened in a debate HS2 does pose problems and it's highly questionable if it will be as rosey as predicted.

The investment would be better spent on line reopenings, longer platforms and trains, new tramways etc across the whole UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, similar to most investment. But when it's on this scale where is it coming from? Everyone in the country in a time of severe cuts to bus services.
It's like robbing Leicester to pay Nottingham.

Conversely we should be building more motorways not railways.

But then why don't we just stop building infrastructure, go back to the 80s and build a few collapsing tunnels at Heathrow and invest all the money in the NHS?

Your argument does not stand up to any scrutiny at all
 

quantinghome

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My motivation is simple, HS2 is not the best scheme out there, it's controversal for many reasons regardless of what happened in a debate HS2 does pose problems and it's highly questionable if it will be as rosey as predicted.

The investment would be better spent on line reopenings, longer platforms and trains, new tramways etc across the whole UK.

That's a well-expressed opinion, but not really your motivation. I think we can all agree that what we say on here doesn't actually affect anything out in the real world. It's a forum to share news and have interesting discussions. Why do you feel the need to post a series of points that have been done to death in the parliamentary process and also numerous times on this forum?
 

PR1Berske

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I have come from the Ordsall Chord thread, where I am happy to see the court case rejected and the project given the right to continue, to this thread where I am utterly depressed. HS2 is not just a white elephant, it's an entire enclosure of white elephants, and it upsets me that a swathe of England is about to be destroyed just so commuters can cut 10 minutes off their journey into London.

A great day for Manchester and the North with the Ordsall Chord. A terrible day for the country with HS2 being approved.
 

najaB

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... it upsets me that a swathe of England is about to be destroyed just so commuters can cut 10 minutes off their journey into London.
On the other hand, I'm quite looking forward to an hour and a half off my journeys to London.
 

CdBrux

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I have come from the Ordsall Chord thread, where I am happy to see the court case rejected and the project given the right to continue, to this thread where I am utterly depressed. HS2 is not just a white elephant, it's an entire enclosure of white elephants, and it upsets me that a swathe of England is about to be destroyed just so commuters can cut 10 minutes off their journey into London.

A great day for Manchester and the North with the Ordsall Chord. A terrible day for the country with HS2 being approved.

Happy to see infrastructure that will allow for more local and regional services thanks to the Ordsall chord but not so happy to see infrastructure that will allow for more local, regional and national services thanks to HS2?
 

PR1Berske

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Happy to see infrastructure that will allow for more local and regional services thanks to the Ordsall chord but not so happy to see infrastructure that will allow for more local, regional and national services thanks to HS2?

You are begging the question. HS2 benefits only London. It does not provide local or regional services. It is designed only for London Euston. It is not designed for, say, Cardiff, or Southport, or Tipton, or Goole.
 

Philip Phlopp

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You are begging the question. HS2 benefits only London. It does not provide local or regional services. It is designed only for London Euston. It is not designed for, say, Cardiff, or Southport, or Tipton, or Goole.

The GWML to WCML link is to be electrified (now during CP6) which would allow Crossrail onto the WCML, or WCML services to connect with destinations west of Acton, including Reading.

HS2 takes many services out of Birmingham New Street, leaving much more capacity for services coming in from Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol, on what should be an electrified route between Bristol and Birmingham around the time HS2 begins Phase 1 service.

There's plenty of options available to use the new capacity on the WCML for more and better local services, to use the new infrastructure beyond HS2 to allow the return of old British Rail era through services, to beef up the CrossCountry network and to provide greater capacity for freight. I don't know if DfT and the various franchises will use the new capacity intelligently, but it will be there for them.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Great news. Despite a well-funded anti-HS2 campaign, the voice of the rail industry has been listened to. There may still be some tweaks and revisions to the Phase 1 planning, and if it helps those who are genuinely negatively impacted by the new works, then that is a very good thing. However, we can now fully dismiss the objections of the anti-rail lobby, the NIMBYS and other assorted idiots who have opposed HS2. Their miasma of lies and misinformation came to nothing in the end.

I think you'll find it's the pro-HS2 campaign that's well funded.
The rail industry isn't just one voice.
So you're just going to dismiss any and all objections to HS2 as lies?
And you call the Anti HS2 people idiots? Clearly research involves listening to both arguments. Idiots can exist on both sides.

Yet's consider Doncaster, Leicester and Stoke, is there any reason to assume train services to Scotland won't be diverted away from them?
HS2 will be fastest for York/Sheffield/Preston to London, so what will hsppen to the existing services?
Please explain why this concern should be dismissed.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Let's consider Doncaster, Leicester and Stoke, is there any reason to assume train services to Scotland won't be diverted away from them?
HS2 will be fastest for York/Sheffield/Preston to London, so what will hsppen to the existing services?
Please explain why this concern should be dismissed.

There's plenty of reasons to assume train services to Scotland won't be diverted away from the ECML:

1) There's a 27.5 year contract with Agility Trains (East) to provide IEP for Anglo-Scottish services via the ECML
2) the ECML is being upgraded at considerable expense to achieve 4 hour journey times (with stops) for London to Edinburgh
3) it's only bi-mode services which can access Aberdeen and Inverness in the longer term.
4) the WCML and ECML have co-existed peacefully for decades, both increasing passenger numbers in recent years. There are clearly considerable intermediate flows between points on those routes which justify the operation of those services
5) a bonus ball - the ECML would benefit if end to end passengers used HS2 for London to Edinburgh, leaving more capacity for London to Newcastle, Newcastle to Edinburgh, York to Darlington and countless other flows.
 

najaB

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So you're just going to dismiss any and all objections to HS2 as lies?
No. Reasonable people evaluated the arguments and found them to be based on incorrect assumptions or poorly worked out figures.
Yet's consider Doncaster, Leicester and Stoke, is there any reason to assume train services to Scotland won't be diverted away from them?
If you read the HS2 Ltd report Broad options for upgraded and high speed railways to the North of England and Scotland, you'll see that there will likely be a mix of high speed and Classic services on the northern route, rather than a complete withdrawal of existing services. On top of that, the additional capacity that HS2 will provide south of Preston on the WCML and freed up capacity on the ECML will allow through services from Scotland to destinations in England that currently require changes.
 
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GrimsbyPacer

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Okay, some good discussion! Thanks.
(1) correct, the trains might still run, but there was also a contract that forced TPE to run trains with first class to Blackpool which was ended for example. And Lincoln and Hull services were listed as 'Anglo Scottish' at the time.

(2) is much slower than HS2, I don't think it'll be unfair to compare it with a slow stopping Pacer to a 185 express, people will get the fast train. The funding on ECML makes the HS2 business case weaker, why build HS2 if current services will be suitably fast, and it won't take North to South passengers away from the current line? A major selling point is the York connection and if most trains fail to use it, what's the point?

(3) Aberdeen people would surely change if it's faster by HS2, if not the claim it will benefit Scotland alot is a bit of a joke since the ECML upgrade (a seperate scheme) is the only timesaver they have.

(4) the intermediate places that keep the WCML and ECML going are Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle and are all to be served by HS2 as the fastest connections.

(5) I'm confused about this, if 1 Train Per Hour from London to Edinburgh used HS2 instead of ECML, there won't be extra room for London to Newcastle as the track from York to Newcastle would be shared by the HS2 route, so no new capacity and why would a Newcastle person use the slower service? And HS2 using that section would likely diminish any possible HS3s capacity too.
 
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