HS2 Manchester leg scrapped: what should happen now?

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that view overestimates the importance of railways in the general scheme of things in the UK.

Not only that, but also that a very large proportion even of people who support railways oppose HS2, mostly on the basis that it's likely to cause underspending on the rest of the network.

 

[Howardh]

Nice to know we've all been levelled down up here.

Just hope they remember to attach it to the current WCML north of Birmingham

 

[Irascible]

The way this project - and our economy - has been handled for the last 15 years or so, both economically & politically, is enough to make me start believeing conspiracy theories.

A couple of generations of damage to our education & society in general coming home to roost. Not everyone can go to public school, not that that turns out anyone any more educated anyway - just better connected & wiith a more inflated ego.

 

[JonathanH]

Not only that, but also that a very large proportion even of people who support railways oppose HS2, mostly on the basis that it's likely to cause underspending on the rest of the network.

Indeed, some quite sane people, often of a slightly older generation will make comments like 'why are we spending so much on HS2 when my [outer suburban] train to London takes so long and costs a fortune'? HS2 has never appealed to them.

 

[ConorW2000]

The fact that there is even talk of the project stopping at OOC rather than go all the way to Euston just makes me wonder whether its just better off scrapping the entire thing, utterly stupid decision to scrap the Northern section, especially given some work was already underway.

I mean OOC is not even designed to be a terminus station!

 

[1D54]

Is anyone surprised??

Am i the only one that is glad?

 

[Noddy]

Let's wait and see what these other transport projects are before judging too harshly. Thinking about it they will probably be out of office before any of them start so Manchester leg might be reinstated by the new incoming government.

Rishi has already said cars and potholes are the priority:

Sunak: Potholes higher priority for people than HS2

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak refused to say whether the HS2 rail line would run to Manchester.

www.bbc.co.uk

HS2 and NPR are both dead if this announcement is true. I imagine they’ll throw a few pennies to councils to subsidise an extra bus for a year or two to make up for it. What an absolute bunch of moronic idiots the Tories are.

The link above is a link to a BBC video interview where:

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has suggested that fixing potholes is more of a priority for people than the HS2 rail line. In an interview with BBC Radio Manchester's Anna Jameson, he repeatedly refused to say whether the line would run to Manchester.

 

[PeterC]

I predicted this on one of the early threads before work started.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Might HS2 have survived if they hadn't aimed for such absurdly high speeds of 400 km/h (about 250 mph)?

 

[A0wen]

Should have built a conventional railway London to Birmingham. Probably using part of the GC route. Spend the money saved on reinstating the slow lines on the ECML and other route upgrades.Laying all the track on a concrete slab must have pushed up the price.

Bit in bold Not sure how that would have worked though ?

At the London end you'd either have been trying to get out of Marylebone or use the New North West line and run up through High Wycombe - a line which doesn't have much spare capacity, has a lowish linespeed and no chance of being 4 tracked without spending the GDP of a small African nation.

Further up, I've walked bits of Northants where the GCR used to run, to pretend it would be somehow easier and attract less opposition than the HS2 route has is for the birds quite frankly. Places like Woodford Halse would have been sliced in half and lost a woodland area which the village consider an amenity. It's really not helpful to pretend that just because it was once the course of a railway line, rebuilding along there would somehow be cheaper / easier / quicker - it really wouldn't.

Then you have to face up to the fact the GCR ran nowhere near Birmingham - perhaps the reason HS2 hasn't taken more of its formation - it headed North-East towards Rugby and Leicester. You'd have come into Rugby facing the completely wrong direction to then try to head towards Birmingham along the Coventry corridor, so realisitcally you'd have had to start deviating from the GCR formation in the Catesby area and then heading North West towards Southam, Kenilworth and Balsall Common to serve Birmingham Airport - which is basically what HS2 is doing......

And what "slow lines" are these that need "reinstating" on the East Coast Mainline ?

Lastly, why do you think concrete slab track is more expensive than laying concrete sleepers and 'loose' rails ? I suspect the difference isn't as big as you think it is and for +140mph high speed, rigidity of the track is of greater importance and has to be engineered to a higher standard than 100 mph.

 

[Deepgreen]

BBC reporting no decision yet...!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-66980550

 

[Sorcerer]

Rishi really has taken an anti-rail, pro-road ideology lately. Little as possible investment in railway infrastructure but more than happy to invest in roads. Interestingly one will be quick to notice that costs aren't really a factor when it comes to road investments either.

 

[Purple Train]

Not only is it a politically and socially inept decision, it is also an economically inept decision - assuming, of course, that these reports are true.

This is something that absolutely deserves to be jumped on by Labour and the left-wing media - but I'll eat my hat if they do.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Am i the only one that is glad?

Why are you glad?

 

[brad465]

BBC reporting no decision yet...!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-66980550

Even if it turns out to be false, the Govt handling of the comms is dire.

Not only is it a politically and socially inept decision, it is also an economically inept decision - assuming, of course, that these reports are true.

This is something that absolutely deserves to be jumped on by Labour and the left-wing media - but I'll eat my hat if they do.

They'll jump on it if the swing voters want it, but otherwise no.

 

[jfowkes]

Might HS2 have survived if they hadn't aimed for such absurdly high speeds of 400 km/h (about 250 mph)?

Probably not. The high speed doesn't add much cost really. If you go slow enough you can get away with ballasted track, but it would have to be substantially lower which would reduce the benefits a lot. You could make the track curvier to avoid some expensive tunnelling perhaps, but you're also adding to the length which pushes the cost up a bit. And given the amount of tunnelling done to appease NIMBYs, it would be unlikely to reduce a lot.

Basically no, the high speed is not a massive addition to the costs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Might HS2 have survived if they hadn't aimed for such absurdly high speeds of 400 km/h (about 250 mph)?

Not really, it's more about the extent of tunnelling and environmental mitigation, along with high land and station costs.
What's odd is that HS1, a similar if shorter line, managed to get built without any of the uproar of HS2.
It also had a poor business case, is seriously under-utilised, and doesn't do much "levelling-up"..

 

[nr758123]

does anyone think this could result in a vote or no confidence and a collapse of this administration

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas

 

[1D54]

Why are you glad?

An absolute waste of money from start to.. Well.. Why do we have this obsession with High Speed Rail just because they have it on continental Europe? This is a small island and the pain of HS2 was never worth the gain. The masse populace of Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds etc have been crying out for decent rail connections seemingly since time began and if the cancellation of HS2 is what it takes then I'm more than glad.

 

[ExRes]

Personally I don't believe what either the BBC or Sky report, they're both interested in themselves rather than in reporting facts, what does interest me though is how many people on this forum choose to believe every word reported by Sky while ignoring the BBC, HS2 isn't cancelled until it's cancelled regardless of the self interested media claims

 

[GardenRail]

What a shambles. Even Indonesia has just opened a High Speed Railway.....

 

[Sorcerer]

An absolute waste of money from start to.. Well.. Why do we have this obsession with High Speed Rail just because they have it on continental Europe? This is a small island and the pain of HS2 was never worth the gain.

That was never the purpose of HS2. It's purpose was freeing up capacity on the WCML, ECML and MML for more local trains while diverting the long distance express services onto the new dedicated line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am i the only one that is glad?

I have always had mixed views on HS2, but I'm not glad it's being turned into a white elephant money pit from something that is expensive but useful, no. Why would anyone be glad of that?

I could understand why some people might support full cancellation including Phase 1 though.

 

[jfowkes]

The masse populace of Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds etc have been crying out for decent rail connections seemingly since time began and if the cancellation of HS2 is what it takes then I'm more than glad.

This isn't going to happen though. These places will get no HS2 and no anything else if the current administration have anything to say about it. You might get potholes filled a bit quicker, but that's all.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Not only that, but also that a very large proportion even of people who support railways oppose HS2, mostly on the basis that it's likely to cause underspending on the rest of the network.

But I thought that HS2 being built in full helps to improve the rest of the network by freeing up capacity for classic passenger services and freight taking pressure of the main bottlenecks like the Castlefield corridor so by diverting intercity services on to HS2 it improves local rail services I now fully understand this logic.

Also judging from the mood on here many of you like me will be infuriated if this is true and will be cynical about any alternative projects funded instead of HS2 but what could be announced to sweeten the blow as they say could it include CLC electrification from Hunts Cross to Trafford Park as an example? That would be quite cheap and quick to do in comparison to HS2/NPR and make sense as it is already electrified from Lime Street to Hunts X and would take most of the diesel workings out of Lime Street and go well with the TRU too ?

 

[Noddy]

An absolute waste of money from start to.. Well.. Why do we have this obsession with High Speed Rail just because they have it on continental Europe? This is a small island and the pain of HS2 was never worth the gain. The masse populace of Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds etc have been crying out for decent rail connections seemingly since time began and if the cancellation of HS2 is what it takes then I'm more than glad.

Except you are never going to get that. NPR is effectively dead with this announcement and with it the better connections that you’re crying out for. Rishi wants to spend money on fixing potholes. The car is the priority. If you are very lucky they will announce a bit of money for buses and projects to be spent over the next 10 or 20 years. But they’ll quietly withdraw that at the next spending review.

BTW Japan is also a small island nation.

 

[Purple Train]

An absolute waste of money from start to.. Well.. Why do we have this obsession with High Speed Rail just because they have it on continental Europe? This is a small island and the pain of HS2 was never worth the gain. The masse populace of Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds etc have been crying out for decent rail connections seemingly since time began and if the cancellation of HS2 is what it takes then I'm more than glad.

So what's better? A high-speed rail system connecting all the major cities and then some across the spine of the country, or a high-speed rail system connecting the outskirts of London with Birmingham?

If it's reduced to just Phase 1, then it will indeed be "getting to London 20 minutes quicker", and end up an elephant so brightly white you'll need sunglasses.

what could be announced to sweeten the blow

Refilling of all potholes in London with gold, in the hope that it'll attract a few Dick Whittington types.

 

[nr758123]

Not only that, but also that a very large proportion even of people who support railways oppose HS2, mostly on the basis that it's likely to cause underspending on the rest of the network.

What people definitely do not like, though, is the feeling that their area is being short-changed. [quoted from Helen Pidd in The Guardian]

 

[ConorW2000]

I would personally would build Phase 1 from Euston to Curzon Street, and then look to connect HS2 with the WCML South of Basford Hall.

Might not be the perfect solution, but it would allow faster services from Manchester/Liverpool.

 

[rower40]

It's not too late to redesign the rump of HS2 to be built to 7' 0.25" gauge. For the higher speed, greater stability, and to prevent any delays being imported onto this country's flagship line from "classic" "Victorian" infrastructure.

This post may contain traces of sarcasm.