HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[si404]

Personally I've never been happy with the idea of Euston serving a line that heads due west of London and wondered why HS2 doesn't head due north/northwest from there. But using Stratford instead is just silly.

An extended Padd if you have to go west, or even Marylebone would make more sense.

Paddington is in a poor location - the Great Western Railway wanted Euston so built their line to meet the curve of the WCML so as to make the switch, when allowed to do so, rather easily. Also not much extra dispersal compared to OOC or Heathrow - it's the same main route taking you through the middle of the city. One that is being built at great expense with the initial justification of the poor onwards connections at Paddington!

Marylebone would be better than Paddington, but would ruin that station. And even if you linked in Baker Street, is there the capacity for dispersal?

Euston is in the right place, gives different routes to OOC (which you need for dispersal, though I guess you could have had West Hampstead mega-interchange with no prospect of massive and widespread redevelopment and an easy-build station), needs rebuilding anyway, the line comes out and points the right way for using the disused railbed to the edge of town (why did they make the WCML so kinky S of Wembley - were they aiming for the GWML?) and the Wendover gap: meaning that (even if tunneled) construction is easier inside Greater London and you take the flattest route that is in anyway direct (Wendover). You save a good 30+ miles of tunnel that would be mandatory if coming out on a 'due north' tragectory. Of course, the New north mainline only leads to a tiny diversion to get south of Harrow from a due northwest trajectory (ie one via the Wendover/Tring area) and from Ruislip to Birmingham the route takes a pretty much straight line, other than some kinks to avoid settlements.

Two Heathrow junctions? I guess there is actually some benefit in having the branch if it still serves London afterwards

Agreed

Actually looking at the document, it's simply a junction in the West Ruislip area allowing Euston - Heathrow trains use a spur (they could reverse, but that would be perverse - there's not room unless they leave the spur as a train enters it). In other words a waste of time even looking at the site!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't be a spoilsport Paul, that's what Forums like this are for

The part of my forum signature that appears in purple ink, unfortunately speaks volumes about how I see much in the real world these days and the usual pragmatic approach I now tend now to adopt.

 

[RobShipway]

I gave some reasons in my post as to why. Did you not read them when you saw I was saying how there is a silver lining for Amersham and Chesham? Here they are again:

One is the indirect benefit of Amersham's service being very poor in comparison to Berko's, so the Berko area commuters will hopefully not drive through Chesham to park at Amersham station and get a train there, instead taking the faster and more frequent WCML service.

Another is the effects it will play on the housing market - less demand for houses (for various reasons) = less destruction of the Chilterns with greenfield sites to meet housing demand and less overstretching of the towns' infrastructure through infill (buy two houses, create 6 Barrett box houses kind of thing, or even buy 2 houses, create a large block of 'Sunset living' apartments, changing 4 cars into 24!)

A third reason is the indirect benefit via benefits to UK PLC. The people who live in Amersham and Chesham would, on average, benefit more from that aspect of HS2 than most Brits not getting direct economic benefits.

This isn't to undo the costs - which for Amersham and Chesham towns themselves now purely relates to the construction of the line, especially wrt trucks and routes that they might take (though that is looking to disappear according to the local papers who won't be content until the line is scrapped entirely and are using victories at the Judicial Inquiry to rally people to the cause of defeating the line). Other than the planning blight and drop in house prices that the scaremongers caused by overhyping the blight that the line will cause, of course. :roll:

Sorry, but I still don't see that as being a win for either Chesham or Amersham if the line is built.

As you say you will have the lorries etc...coming through during the 2 - 3 year building process, house prices will go lower certainly near where there is construction sites and the line after completion will be of no benefit to the people of the area because as I stated before.

 

[LE Greys]

Whilst I can clearly see Meadowhall being easier to accommodate online of a north-south line, I can't help thinking that something considerable will be needed around Meadowhall to make a station there more viable, making a large mixed use development site around the J34 area.

I'd also imagine some kind of improvement to service frequency of the South Transpennine Express, especially between Sheffield and Doncaster to a 15 minute frequency, to service the existing need plus the potential 2 trains in each direction stopping frequency of the HS2 service.

I'd like of course to see a city centre station, but really can't see the cost of tunnels required being justified for a 2tph service (more likely 1tph), nor see a spur getting close enough to make a big enough difference over a Meadowhall online station.

Well, it's more your area than mine. Still, there will definitely have to be some considerable changes. I'm not sure if it's possible reconnect the former west-to-south curve at Holmes Junction and reopen Treeton, but it might be possible.

If we'd had infinite funding, I'd've rolled it in with reopening the Woodhead Line and tried for Sheffield Victoria, with the former LNER lines diverted into there, possibly via Tinsley. That would gove a city centre location and rail connections, but that's pretty much impossible.

 

[steamdrivenand]

I feel bad now because for 15 years 'til '92 I lived in Bovingdon and daily drove through the Chilterns to Chalfont & Latimer LU station to commute into the City.

I occasionally tried Chesham and Hemel and when we moved to Kings Langley tried the local station, but ended up using Watford Junction because of its better service for the year before we moved to North Yorkshire and a sensible place to live and work.

 

[Chris125]

Personally I've never been happy with the idea of Euston serving a line that heads due west of London and wondered why HS2 doesn't head due north/northwest from there. But using Stratford instead is just silly.

I don't see anything strange about it; Birmingham is just as far west of London as it is north, and both the Chiltern Mainline and the WCML head that way after leaving their respective termini - for short distances they even head south west.

With OOC such an important interchange, giving access to Crossrail, the GWML, HEx and possibly tube/overground lines, it's the obvious way to go.

Chris

 

[LE Greys]

Do trains skip Bicester - I didn't think they did? And given I was talking about people for Berko hopefully not driving through Chesham to park at Amersham station, I certainly didn't mean increasing trains to Amersham.

Of course they don't, and that wasn't the point. Bicester (IIRC) currently has some nice silver inter-city trains that call on an hourly basis going to Birmingham and London. It's questionable whether they will survive beyond the opening of HS2.

At least it has rail connections and shouldn't be too hard to link in with the passenger network - you'd need a chord near Trowell to allow Nottingham access to the station from North as well as South, so as to allow Derby and Leicester to Nottingham services to call there (and thus serve those other cities). Poor Beeston - I guess those stations can have the Nottingham-Sheffield stoppers or extended trains from the east running to Toton.

NET only needs a very short extension to serve Toton - unlike [stn]EMD[/stn]

It's a question of swings and roundabouts.[stn]EMD[/stn] is a convenient point to stop MML services, and can be used without major disruption to traffic. Either one of these locations has the possibility to be another Ebbsfleet, and it will scarcely be used for anything except connections. Unfortunately, there is no chance of rebuilding Nottingham Victoria.

Crewe on a loop would be worse - what purpose would Manchester to Crewe services on HSR do? Not as bad as going to Manchester via Crewe though.

It struck me as a convenient spot to hop onto HS2 for trains from Birmingham and Wolverhampton to Manchester and Glasgow. And for infrastructure trains for that matter, HS2 will still need maintenance.

Totally agree - though you would have to have a longer NET extension to the Airport than Stapleford-Totton. It's about the same for cars - you are by the M1 and decent routes to Derby and Nottingham.

Again, swings and roundabouts, but I still favour [stn]EMD[/stn] because it needs less work to do.

And for the journey times - Crewe has added 5 minutes to Manchester - I'd say it's a ten minute add on to Preston times since the last spec which went the straight line route and met the WCML north of Warrington. 30 miles more classic line running Liverpool gets better than leaving HS2 at Lichfield, but also loses about 5 minutes over a route meeting the WCML further north - Weaver Junction or Culceth.

I can't really speculate on that. HS2 serving Wigan and Warrington seems a bit wasteful, but HS2 not serving Wigan and Warrington, running via Manchester instead, effectively drops them off the main line. Really, the question is 'How much do you value classic line connections?'. I place a high value on them. Crewe also provides a good place for people from Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby and the TVL, as well as Wolverhampton, to board HS2 trains when heading north.

Two Heathrow junctions? I guess there is actually some benefit in having the branch if it still serves London afterwards (the business case for a spur is dire - every £1 you spend, you get about 30p back - and that ignores dis-benefits of having a spur other than the capital outlay of building and running it. If a wizard offered to magic a complete spur into place for nothing, HS2 Ltd would probably say "no thanks" as it would still not be worth it).

Although such a spur is a good starting point on the way to Bristol, an obvious next destination for HS3.

 

[steamdrivenand]

I've always thought the HS lines have been numbered wrong. They should be numbered like the roads.

So HS1 is east of north, HS2 is the current HS1, HS3 heads down to the south and west and HS4 to the west and Southern Wales, HS5 to North Wales and the North West and HS6 west of north.

HS7 to 9 can be used in Scotland

 

[Manchester77]

A) it's a railway so why use road stuff
B) that's complicated and confusing

 

[Chris125]

Of course they don't, and that wasn't the point. Bicester (IIRC) currently has some nice silver inter-city trains that call on an hourly basis going to Birmingham and London. It's questionable whether they will survive beyond the opening of HS2.

HS2 is fifteen years away - Chiltern will be in a new franchise, probably electrified, probably using different rolling stock and while it's questionable whether today's service patterns will survive beyond the opening of HS2, surely it's just as questionable whether they'll survive that long either.

It's a question of swings and roundabouts.

It's a question of positives and negatives, of cost:benefit - Toton will have been chosen because when they are analysed it performs better.

Chris

 

[Haydn1971]

It's a question of positives and negatives - Toton will have been chosen because when they are analysed it performs better.

I don't feel that Toton is aligned correctly for a route from M42 J9 to Sheffield/Meadowhall - it drags the HS2 too Far East and forces it into a reverse curve - looking at a straight line, passing just to the west of Castle Donnington gives a sweet 400kph line across the Trent and Derwent flood plains, coupled with a new Derby-Nottingham heavy rail service on the line through Castle Donnington, a clear alignment path north & south, a new road link to the A50 and a new people mover to the Airport, practically perfect.

 

[steamdrivenand]

A) it's a railway so why use road stuff
B) that's complicated and confusing

You could equally say:
A) It's 'transport' stuff so it should be used.
B) Once established and the logic understood there would be no confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't feel that Toton is aligned correctly for a route from M42 J9 to Sheffield/Meadowhall - it drags the HS2 too Far East and forces it into a reverse curve - looking at a straight line, passing just to the west of Castle Donnington gives a sweet 400kph line across the Trent and Derwent flood plains, coupled with a new Derby-Nottingham heavy rail service on the line through Castle Donnington, a clear alignment path north & south, a new road link to the A50 and a new people mover to the Airport, practically perfect.

I agree with you H, I wonder if there are political reasons for selecting Toton as appear to be driving the Crewe choice on the western section of 'Y'?

It's also occurred to me that whilst a lot of people support an east of Stoke alignment for the western arm I've not heard anyone suggest the eastern arm should pass to the west of Chesterfield/Sheffield. They're similar Peak District foothills/moorland in both cases.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If we'd had infinite funding, I'd've rolled it in with reopening the Woodhead Line and tried for Sheffield Victoria, with the former LNER lines diverted into there, possibly via Tinsley. That would give a city centre location and rail connections, but that's pretty much impossible.

The mention of the Woodhead line immediately brought the condition of the existing Dinting viaduct to my mind as a major item of infrastructure to be considered. Would your "infinite funding plan" have budgetary allocation to allow the building of a brand new viaduct that would not be affected by the engineering stresses that could be expected of an HS2 operation.

 

[brianthegiant]

This from a local lib-dem councillor:
" The Government is due to announce this week where the route of the High Speed 2 rail line will run. The announcement may well come tomorrow, and the Sunday Times has reported today that it will include a new East Midlands station at Toton. If confirmed this will be an extremely significant piece of news as there will only be one station anywhere in the East Midlands. All parties on
the borough council have previously expressed unanimous support for a station
in Toton, but we will need to see whether that holds in the future. There are
huge implications if the station does come to Toton regarding access to the
site and whether a new junction will be built off the A52, whether London
trains will still stop at Beeston etc, and all of these questions will need to
be addressed over the next few months. It is vitally important that we don’t
jump into any knee-jerk reactions but consider matters carefully and sensibly."

so no surprises here then, we have discussed the Toton HS station & access at length in other threads.

 

[Haydn1971]

It's also occurred to me that whilst a lot of people support an east of Stoke alignment for the western arm I've not heard anyone suggest the eastern arm should pass to the west of Chesterfield/Sheffield. They're similar Peak District foothills/moorland in both cases.

If you look on a large OS map, going east of Stoke would be best for a direct to Piccadilly route, but would introduce more complexity than necessary than a west of Stoke route - further south, the alignment is tied to the gap between the National Forest and Cannock Chase - so a path just north of Rugeley

West of Sheffield involves lots of deep valleys - 100m difference in places and doesn't provide a great station location for Sheffield, nor the rest of South Yorkshire

 

[tbtc]

I've always thought the HS lines have been numbered wrong. They should be numbered like the roads.

So HS1 is east of north, HS2 is the current HS1, HS3 heads down to the south and west and HS4 to the west and Southern Wales, HS5 to North Wales and the North West and HS6 west of north.

HS7 to 9 can be used in Scotland

Maybe we should treat it like BR timetables?

So the line from London to Birmingham/ Manchester/ Glasgow would be HS65?

The branch for Leeds and Newcastle would be HS26?

London to Cardiff/ Bristol would be something like HS130 (?)

(apologies - I can't remember the old timetable number for London to Dover)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

West of Sheffield involves lots of deep valleys - 100m difference in places and doesn't provide a great station location for Sheffield, nor the rest of South Yorkshire

Extend Supertram beyond Malin Bridge to connect with HS2 around Moscar?

 

[PR1Berske]

"They've used a flat map!"

 

[Haydn1971]

Extend Supertram beyond Malin Bridge to connect with HS2 around Moscar?

I'll have a pint of what your drinking

 

[Max]

On a different subject we have moronic HS2 story of the day - apparently Stratford International should be used instead of Euston because it has spare platforms and you can connect to Heathrow via Crossrail... :roll:

Chris

Please note, this is being discussed here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77450

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't feel that Toton is aligned correctly for a route from M42 J9 to Sheffield/Meadowhall - it drags the HS2 too Far East and forces it into a reverse curve - looking at a straight line, passing just to the west of Castle Donnington gives a sweet 400kph line across the Trent and Derwent flood plains, coupled with a new Derby-Nottingham heavy rail service on the line through Castle Donnington, a clear alignment path north & south, a new road link to the A50 and a new people mover to the Airport, practically perfect.

Having done alignments for it you can do it without reverse curves, its a little tight getting into the yard but its fine after that, need to swing round below barrow upon soar power station though.

Main reason for me, the tram, they want it to be linked well to the city and the NET is the perfect way to do it.

 

[Haydn1971]

Having done alignments for it you can do it without reverse curves, its a little tight getting into the yard but its fine after that, need to swing round below barrow upon soar power station though.

8km radii without tunnels ? I'd be interested to see that if you have a draft plan to get a sense of scale

Main reason for me, the tram, they want it to be linked well to the city and the NET is the perfect way to do it.

Tram suits Nottingham, but not the rest of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and North Leicestershire and potentially parts of Lincolnshire - heavy rail links are going to be vital

 

[Philip Elliott]

Having done alignments for it you can do it without reverse curves, its a little tight getting into the yard but its fine after that, need to swing round below barrow upon soar power station though.

Main reason for me, the tram, they want it to be linked well to the city and the NET is the perfect way to do it.

The power station is Ratcliffe-on-Soar.

The tram will take circa 30 minutes - it will be quicker from St. Pancras and their isn't the capacity on the trams. Doesn't help Derby or Leicester...

 

[YorkshireBear]

8km radii without tunnels ? I'd be interested to see that if you have a draft plan to get a sense of scale



Tram suits Nottingham, but not the rest of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and North Leicestershire and potentially parts of Lincolnshire - heavy rail links are going to be vital

7200m radii as stated on their website. Was tricky, and does involve travelling ENE along to the south of the M42 for quite a way.

Nope, large embankemnt. When i get the work back i will scan a copy of the map in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The power station is Ratcliffe-on-Soar.

The tram will take circa 30 minutes - it will be quicker from St. Pancras and their isn't the capacity on the trams. Doesn't help Derby or Leicester...

I meant that sorry got my power stations mixed up.

Will help the west side of nottingham connect. My plan was to use the access lines to the yard to provide fast EMU services to Derby and Nottingham rail stations.

Leicester does not need to be served by HS2, infact with connection times (Travelling North to head South) HS2 was slower than the current non stop MML trains so HS2 will never serve leicetser unless the additional HS2 line is built as suggested in HS2 documents and that would have a leicester parkway.

This is what i wrote for my report, not what government are planning, so this is just my opinion on what is best.

 

[6Gman]

It doesn't mention a 'branch to Crewe' though - it actually reads like this:

"Meanwhile the western branch will head towards Manchester via Crewe, with stations proposed for Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport."

Of course, it does depend what they mean by "via Crewe" - it could be:

a) via the town of Crewe
b) via a point within a few miles of Crewe i.e. the M6 Corridor.

 

[Kettledrum]

All of which sounds okay (not necessarily fantastic/ ideal, but certainly okay).

Toton can obviously have connecting trains to Nottingham (and Derby etc) without much in the way of new infrastructure.

Toton is mid way between Derby and Nottingham. It's not a destination in its own right in the way in which Nottingham City Centre would be.

Since the Great Central railway closed and a shopping centre built over Nottingham Victoria, Nottingham's heavy rail infrastructure has been irrevocably compromised.

Had a High Speed line been built approaching Nottingham from the South or South East, a city centre option might just have been possible, but it was never going to happen, with the main High Speed stem going to Birmingham first.

At least Toton is convenient for the people who live in the suburbs of Nottingham and Derby (unlike East Midlands Parkway which is surrounded by fields).

Toton is the best Nottingham could get out of High Speed 2.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Given that Toton will have 4tph (3 London, 1 Birmingham), how many Toton - Derby/Nottingham do you expect to run. Have you worked how to get these services across Trent West Jn.? There is no such thing as "fast" over there! (15mph).

Leicester will want connections to head north - travelling to Leeds or the northeast is bad enough already without the spectre of potential MML & XC cuts.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Given that Toton will have 4tph (3 London, 1 Birmingham), how many Toton - Derby/Nottingham do you expect to run. Have you worked how to get these services across Trent West Jn.? There is no such thing as "fast" over there! (15mph).

Leicester will want connections to head north - travelling to Leeds or the northeast is bad enough already without the spectre of potential MML & XC cuts.

I doubt it will be built on the current lines more over them and taking a few out of use, surely they arnt all needed?

I suppose leicester will but like i say i think the best way for that is to have the next leg of HS2 built sooner rather than later.

 

[LE Greys]

The mention of the Woodhead line immediately brought the condition of the existing Dinting viaduct to my mind as a major item of infrastructure to be considered. Would your "infinite funding plan" have budgetary allocation to allow the building of a brand new viaduct that would not be affected by the engineering stresses that could be expected of an HS2 operation.

I don't want this spinning off into a fantasy thread, but it includes a new viaduct, a potential fourth bore to the tunnel (allowing 125 running), TASS, 25kV wires for the whole length (and the lines to Donny and Fitzwilliam) and anything else I can think of. However, it's intended to be a _<125mph mixed traffic line, absorbing some traffic from the Chinley, Penistone and Huddersfield routes, in particular the Norwich-Liverpools, and any freight that might be going. Basically, it's a branch of HS2 combined with a reopening, based on my original 'up the middle' Y idea.

 

[Kettledrum]

Given that Toton will have 4tph (3 London, 1 Birmingham), how many Toton - Derby/Nottingham do you expect to run. Have you worked how to get these services across Trent West Jn.? There is no such thing as "fast" over there! (15mph).

Leicester will want connections to head north - travelling to Leeds or the northeast is bad enough already without the spectre of potential MML & XC cuts.

I'm really not convinced that there would be much in the way of MML or XC cuts. I guess some of the direct trains would be replaced by more stoppers, so Leicester trains going North would stop at Loughboro, East Midlands Parkway, Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield. If you wanted a direct/fast train from Leicester to Leeds, it probably doesn't help, but for the users of many of these stations, it would be an enhanced service.

The XC trains again serve many different stations, and the trains are already well really used from Sheffield to Birmingham, and the interim stations, so High Speed 2 is likely to be additional capacity for the longer journeys. I can't see the existing services simply being cut.

 

[LE Greys]

Toton is mid way between Derby and Nottingham. It's not a destination in its own right in the way in which Nottingham City Centre would be.

Since the Great Central railway closed and a shopping centre built over Nottingham Victoria, Nottingham's heavy rail infrastructure has been irrevocably compromised.

Had a High Speed line been built approaching Nottingham from the South or South East, a city centre option might just have been possible, but it was never going to happen, with the main High Speed stem going to Birmingham first.

At least Toton is convenient for the people who live in the suburbs of Nottingham and Derby (unlike East Midlands Parkway which is surrounded by fields).

Toton is the best Nottingham could get out of High Speed 2.

I've just had another look at the Toton site, and it's greater than walking distance from either Nottingham or Derby. My definition of 'convenient for' is 'within an hour's walk of'. In fact, it would give Long Eaton far more importance in railway terms than they have ever had! Displacing it south to EMP at least provides the option of a fast rail shuttle service with minimal changes to infrastructure, mostly by making sure all MML trains stop there. Imagine how much work would have to be done to displace all MML Nottingham services to stop at Toton without reversing. A short-cut alongside the M1 at Trowell might work, but that would involve ploughing through a housing estate to make the curve at reasonable speed. Derby is even harder. The tram extension might be worthwhile for the suburbs, although the current local stations would do a similar job to some extent.

I hope we can take it as read that through-ticketing will be used for HS2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm really not convinced that there would be much in the way of MML or XC cuts. I guess some of the direct trains would be replaced by more stoppers, so Leicester trains going North would stop at Loughboro, East Midlands Parkway, Derby, Ilkeston?, Chesterfield and Sheffield. If you wanted a direct/fast train from Leicester to Leeds, it probably doesn't help, but for the users of many of these stations, it would be an enhanced service.

The XC trains again serve many different stations, and the trains are already well really used from Sheffield to Birmingham, and the interim stations, so High Speed 2 is likely to be additional capacity for the longer journeys. I can't see the existing services simply being cut.

It depends on how you define 'cuts'. There's almost certainly going to be a service downgrade, if you allow for the fact that passengers spending a shorter time on trains are less likely to use the buffet. There's also the question of first class, which is harder to justify on shorter journeys, so is likely to shrink. However, I doubt frequencies will reduce on the MML at all, although the trains will stop more often. However, electrification should offset this considerably with better acceleration (if 395s are anything to go by anyway).