HST's for Scotrails New Franchise

[455driver]

err yep some of us, esp those not at the sharp end i.e. me , do need it spelt out - I now understand the point you're getting at, thanks

It wasn't aimed at you, sorry if you thought it was, but at our all knowing exspurts who think they know everything about running trains coz it works on trainsim!

 

[47802]

As others have said it does seem to be taking the economics of the bid to the extreme by having 14 trainsets with one less coach as the two fleets 14 x 2+4 / 13 x 2+5 will then have to be pretty closely managed to ensure a lower capacity set isn't deputising for a higher one - surely the operational flexibility of having one uniform fleet outweighs the marginal cost of running 14 extra MK3's?
We can only hope that at least 14 extra Mk3's are safely stored to allow for future needs.

That said from what I can see (using Chiltern Mk3 seating capacities + post #166 earlier in the thread) there will be a welcome increase in seating capacity where a 2+4 HST replaces a 170/4 3 car express spec Turbostar :

HST 2 x 72 standard class + 1 x 69 standard class accessible toilet + 1 x composite 10 standard class/micro-buffet/30 first class
​

= 223:30 total capacity 253, standard:first ratio = 7.43:1
​

170/4 3 car express spec
​

=179:18 total capacity 197, standard:first ratio = 9.94:1
​

I've never been on the Chiltern Mk3's so not quite sure where the Guard bides? Maybe ditch the 10 standard class seats in the composite coach which then skews my figures a bit ??

Looking at FGW HST seating plans it gives 76 for the TGS, 84 for a TS and 72 for Large Bog and Wheelchair coach that gives a capacity of 232 standard

Possibly you might get rid of the TGS and move the Guards accommodation to the buffet which I think is the case with GC HST's at the expense maybe of some or all of a Buffet composite, that would give standard class of about 240.

 

[route:oxford]

I'm not sure where route: oxford has got the idea from that they're mostly running around in pairs, because they really aren't.

From my monthly visits to Perthshire.

 

[455driver]

I ain't no expert on HSTs (or many other things ) but as has been posted by many people on many occasions, I do know about (some) restrictions which apply due to lack of brakeforce, ie 10mph below line speed when it (linespeed) is 60 or more, which would do a good job of effing up the timetable unless the trains are timetabled at less than linespeed.

 

[aylesbury]

At least when the HSTs are put into service passengers will have comfort room and a quiet carriage to travel in.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe another restriction on HSTs is that if one power car is dead the electro-pneumatic brake won't work, so the brake takes longer to apply as the pipe is only vented at one end of the train. However I imagine any driving trailer conversion could include the necessary EP equipment to overcome this. Increasing the brake force to compensate for fewer trailers would be a lot more difficult.

 

[PG]

455 - didn't think it was (aimed at me) so no offence taken
This forum wouldn't be half as good as it is without the insight from those at the coalface!

 

[Rich McLean]

At 2+4, top speed will be 100mph. 2+5 plus for 125mph. Power Car moves are slower again but that isn't really relevant in this case

 

[455driver]

At 2+4, top speed will be 100mph. 2+5 plus for 125mph. Power Car moves are slower again but that isn't really relevant in this case

Its the linespeed restrictions which would be the issues more than the maximum speed allowed!

 

[Class83]

So far the only official documentation I've seen about the HSTs is the brochure on this page.

Has there been any other official documentation published which gives information about the number of carriages to be used.

---
So far I'm making the following assumptions:

Due to the time-scales of IEP replacement and number of units it will be the FGW units which are currently 7 or 8 carriages.

Due to the platform lengths at Glasgow Queen Street the maximum formation length will be 6+2, assuming platforms are extended to accommodate 8*23m.

 

[D6975]

So far the only official documentation I've seen about the HSTs is the brochure on this page.

Has there been any other official documentation published which gives information about the number of carriages to be used.

---
So far I'm making the following assumptions:

Due to the time-scales of IEP replacement and number of units it will be the FGW units which are currently 7 or 8 carriages.

Due to the platform lengths at Glasgow Queen Street the maximum formation length will be 6+2, assuming platforms are extended to accommodate 8*23m.

And don't forget that due to needing to squeeze down to 2 tracks before the tunnel, the middle platforms will be considerably shorter.

 

[Murph]

Due to the platform lengths at Glasgow Queen Street the maximum formation length will be 6+2, assuming platforms are extended to accommodate 8*23m.

Do we know what the platform lengths are expected to be after the redevelopment of the station? NR's video flythrough of the new station make it look like they will run the full length of the old train shed, but I'm not sure what that actually translates to. I was unable to find any specifics on their site about lengths.

Note that a 2+6 isn't 8*23, it's 2*17.8 + 6*23.

My guess is that 2+6 will probably fit ok, since they can do a 2+8 on the existing eastern platform (can't they?). Just a guess though. It really is a terribly awkward and constrained approach to the platforms.

 

[Bodiddly]

Let us assume that some kind of deal has been put in place to facilitate these trains. Leasing companies are over the moon to be renting out stock for another 7-10 years that would possibly have been consigned to the scrapman. I think we should also assume that it will not necessarily be down to leasing costs per vehicle, but more to fit in with operational duties and as the stock get's older, each Mk3 will need more and more maintenance adding to the overall cost. What would be the point in running a 2+6 on an evening Glasgow to Inverness when, speaking from experience, the last train from Glasgow to Inverness is busy until Perth but virtually empty to the North?

Personally, I think a mix of 2+4 and 2+5 would be very sufficient if loadings are monitored.

 

[Class83]

Let us assume that some kind of deal has been put in place to facilitate these trains. Leasing companies are over the moon to be renting out stock for another 7-10 years that would possibly have been consigned to the scrapman. I think we should also assume that it will not necessarily be down to leasing costs per vehicle, but more to fit in with operational duties and as the stock get's older, each Mk3 will need more and more maintenance adding to the overall cost. What would be the point in running a 2+6 on an evening Glasgow to Inverness when, speaking from experience, the last train from Glasgow to Inverness is busy until Perth but virtually empty to the North?

Personally, I think a mix of 2+4 and 2+5 would be very sufficient if loadings are monitored.

There will inevitably be some trains which are quieter than others, HSTs are fixed formation and can't be doubled at busy times like 158/170s so all the formations need to be able to cope with peak demand. As you say they think out after Perth/Dundee, but Scotrail haven't seemed to want to run 6 car to there and split leave 3 cars, instead they have removed Stirling, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy stops to reduce the number of passengers. I'm not sure how monitoring loadings will help, unless you plan on discouraging train use due to overcrowding.

 

[Bodiddly]

There will inevitably be some trains which are quieter than others, HSTs are fixed formation and can't be doubled at busy times like 158/170s so all the formations need to be able to cope with peak demand. As you say they think out after Perth/Dundee, but Scotrail haven't seemed to want to run 6 car to there and split leave 3 cars, instead they have removed Stirling, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy stops to reduce the number of passengers. I'm not sure how monitoring loadings will help, unless you plan on discouraging train use due to overcrowding.

No, sorry I wasn't too clear in what I said. It is because the HST's are fixed formation I think monitoring loadings would determine the best use for them. So a 2+4 on the last Inverness would probably not be suitable for the first morning return as it would be passing through Perth at a time when more people were travelling to Glasgow. But if the plan was to use the 2+4' s solely between Inverness and Perth and Inverness and Aberdeen, this would probably work. With each of these lines frequencies being upped to 1 an hour between certain stations, a bit of thinking would need to be done by the planners to ensure the 2+5's were diagrammed on the right services.

 

[92002]

So far the only official documentation I've seen about the HSTs is the brochure on this page.

Has there been any other official documentation published which gives information about the number of carriages to be used.

---
So far I'm making the following assumptions:

Due to the time-scales of IEP replacement and number of units it will be the FGW units which are currently 7 or 8 carriages.

Due to the platform lengths at Glasgow Queen Street the maximum formation length will be 6+2, assuming platforms are extended to accommodate 8*23m.

Back in the good old BR days an East Coast 2+8 fitted into platform 7 at Queen Street.Although it fouled platform 6.

After the platforms have been lengthened all platforms except P1 will be capable of 8x23m.
The size of 2 new emus.

 

[route:oxford]

There will inevitably be some trains which are quieter than others, HSTs are fixed formation and can't be doubled at busy times like 158/170s so all the formations need to be able to cope with peak demand. As you say they think out after Perth/Dundee, but Scotrail haven't seemed to want to run 6 car to there and split leave 3 cars, instead they have removed Stirling, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy stops to reduce the number of passengers. I'm not sure how monitoring loadings will help, unless you plan on discouraging train use due to overcrowding.

I don't mind Stirling being missed out if Dunblane or Larbert are included instead.

It's important to have an interchange option on services between Perth & Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

[ER158715]

The Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness services tend to be two 3-car 170s.

They are often full to standing at the moment.

There are currently NO weekday 6car services booked to arrive in Inverness. The only time a 6 car works is a Sunday. If a pair of 170's are on the Inverness-Glasgow, the back set is locked out of use as its getting moved for tyre turning or similar.
There are currently 2 jobs where a pair of 158's are booked. 1045 exINV and 1037 ex EDB.
Not sure about the Glasgow Aberdeen but the vast majority are single 170 units from what I've seen whilst in Aberdeen.

 

[Class83]

No, sorry I wasn't too clear in what I said. It is because the HST's are fixed formation I think monitoring loadings would determine the best use for them. So a 2+4 on the last Inverness would probably not be suitable for the first morning return as it would be passing through Perth at a time when more people were travelling to Glasgow. But if the plan was to use the 2+4' s solely between Inverness and Perth and Inverness and Aberdeen, this would probably work. With each of these lines frequencies being upped to 1 an hour between certain stations, a bit of thinking would need to be done by the planners to ensure the 2+5's were diagrammed on the right services.

I see where you're coming from, but unless you split the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness services at Perth then there will be a need for more capacity on these at the central belt end. I'm not totally sure the HSTs are the best units for these routes. 170s have their limitations, but 3 car 175s might be a good compromise being more 'intercity' but allowing short units north of Perth and Dundee, but with enough capacity out of Edinburgh & Glasgow.

Looking at the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles over the last 16 years Scotrail have taken a 'build it and they will come' attitude and gone from 4 car 158s every 30 mins to 6 car 170s every 15 mins and are working on 8 car every 15 mins in 5 years time.

 

[Bodiddly]

I see where you're coming from, but unless you split the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness services at Perth then there will be a need for more capacity on these at the central belt end. I'm not totally sure the HSTs are the best units for these routes. 170s have their limitations, but 3 car 175s might be a good compromise being more 'intercity' but allowing short units north of Perth and Dundee, but with enough capacity out of Edinburgh & Glasgow.

Looking at the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles over the last 16 years Scotrail have taken a 'build it and they will come' attitude and gone from 4 car 158s every 30 mins to 6 car 170s every 15 mins and are working on 8 car every 15 mins in 5 years time.

The A9 average speed cameras may be a blessing in disguise for the Highland Main Line. I can see more and more people switching to the train for leisure purposes. I noticed as I was on my way home on Friday the 12.53 Inverness to Edinburgh fill up to bursting, meaning an HST 2+5 could have been comfortably loaded. In contrast, my Aberdeen train was only a 2 car 158 with a few of seats left. A 2+4 would have been ample in this case. This is where the planners would need to get it right. If I was a senior manager in Abellio, I would be putting in place load monitoring now, to ready the company for what could be a large upsurge in new customers due to the possible frustration of the A9 cameras. First had the good sense to double up the 158 sets from the North when the Kessock Bridge was undergoing the deck works and with my personal experience during these times, they needed it! It's simply supply and demand.

If you read the bumf, Abellio are promising HST's between all Scottish cities not included in the electrification brief, effectively ruling out DMU's. It now just comes down to the formations they will use.

Elgin is a city so has to be included!

 

[Liam]

I see where you're coming from, but unless you split the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness services at Perth then there will be a need for more capacity on these at the central belt end. I'm not totally sure the HSTs are the best units for these routes. 170s have their limitations, but 3 car 175s might be a good compromise being more 'intercity' but allowing short units north of Perth and Dundee, but with enough capacity out of Edinburgh & Glasgow.

I quite regularly use Edinburgh-Perth/Inverness services between Kirkcaldy and Perth (2-3 times per month) and have never failed to get a seat at any time of the day. Peak services in and out of Edinburgh are all busy, whether they are Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth or Fife Circle services.

Looking at the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles over the last 16 years Scotrail have taken a 'build it and they will come' attitude and gone from 4 car 158s every 30 mins to 6 car 170s every 15 mins and are working on 8 car every 15 mins in 5 years time.

Most Edinburgh-Glasgow QS services are 3 car outwith peaks. Some in the evening are 6 cars, mainly for stock movements to Haymarket depot.

The A9 average speed cameras may be a blessing in disguise for the Highland Main Line. I can see more and more people switching to the train for leisure purposes. I noticed as I was on my way home on Friday the 12.53 Inverness to Edinburgh fill up to bursting, meaning an HST 2+5 could have been comfortably loaded.

Interesting, maybe it's just Fridays then, as I've never found this train (1504 off Perth) particularly busy when I have boarded.

Elgin is a city so has to be included!

Brechin too...

 

[clc]

The A9 average speed cameras may be a blessing in disguise for the Highland Main Line. I can see more and more people switching to the train for leisure purposes.

In my experience leisure travelers on the A9 are in no particular hurry. In any event the dualling programme will solve the platooning problem.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Abellio are promising HST's between all Scottish cities not included in the electrification brief, effectively ruling out DMU's. It now just comes down to the formations they will use.

There's a table on page 30 of November's Modern Railways. 13x 2+5 and 14x 2+4. Or did you mean which services are worked by which length formation?

Later, in the text of the article, there is again a hint of using the class 442s as trailers for IC125s. I personally think it would be wasteful not to make use of the cabs on the 442s, either as DBSOs (Anglia perhaps, or ATW/Chiltern) or keeping them as multiple units. 13x5 + 14x4 is however 121, worryingly close to 24x5=120.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that the 442 is the ultimate evolution of the already good Mk3 coach (better seating, less harsh lighting, power doors, vestibule doors that don't bang back and forth), this might not be a bad thing at all.

Neil

 

[Bodiddly]

I quite regularly use Edinburgh-Perth/Inverness services between Kirkcaldy and Perth (2-3 times per month) and have never failed to get a seat at any time of the day. Peak services in and out of Edinburgh are all busy, whether they are Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth or Fife Circle services.



Most Edinburgh-Glasgow QS services are 3 car outwith peaks. Some in the evening are 6 cars, mainly for stock movements to Haymarket depot.



Interesting, maybe it's just Fridays then, as I've never found this train (1504 off Perth) particularly busy when I have boarded.



Brechin too...

The next re-opening after the Borders link?

In my experience leisure travelers on the A9 are in no particular hurry. In any event the dualling programme will solve the platooning problem.

Am I right to assume you don't 'do' the A9 regularly then? In leisure travelers, I am not talking tourists here, just people trying to get South/North for shopping and visiting. The road is a nightmare just made worse by installing these pointless cameras, a very short sighted vision by the Scottish government I might add. And as for dualling, this franchise will be up for renewal by the time it is completed!

 

[deltic08]

I have thought for some time that Stanley junction to Forfar is a route to reopen with newbuild from there to a point south of Stonehaven via Brechin. This route was well laid out for high speed and could allow a journey time from Aberdeen to Perth with a couple of stops in about 65 minutes using HSTs. Aberdeen-Glasgow could become sub 2 hours, a time impossible via Dundee, Arbroath and Montrose.

I wrote to TS about two years ago suggesting this and had a very curt reply that the Dundee route will be upgraded to reduce journey times by 30 minutes between Perth to Aberdeen. I think it will happen when HSTs are operating north of the Central Belt.

 

[Class83]

I quite regularly use Edinburgh-Perth/Inverness services between Kirkcaldy and Perth (2-3 times per month) and have never failed to get a seat at any time of the day. Peak services in and out of Edinburgh are all busy, whether they are Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth or Fife Circle services.

Most Edinburgh-Glasgow QS services are 3 car outwith peaks. Some in the evening are 6 cars, mainly for stock movements to Haymarket depot.

This is the problem though, running <6 car trains in/out of Waverley or Queen Street during the peaks is wasting track capacity. Trains on all routes are full, and while there are some 4 car 15x workings around, I'm sure Scotrail (and their passengers) would be happy for them to be 6 car were there enough 170s. The HSTs will be fixed formation and need to cope with the busiest times as they can't be doubled.

Stirling and Kirkcaldy are > 20 minutes from Glasgow and Edinburgh so standing is not supposed to happen, the standing capacity is allowed on services which stop at Inverkeithing. Regardless of would work best, the contract has been signed and it's going to be HSTs, I just hope they're configured in a suitable manner.

 

[clc]

Am I right to assume you don't 'do' the A9 regularly then? In leisure travelers, I am not talking tourists here, just people trying to get South/North for shopping and visiting. The road is a nightmare just made worse by installing these pointless cameras, a very short sighted vision by the Scottish government I might add. And as for dualling, this franchise will be up for renewal by the time it is completed!

Point taken re leisure travelers, I misunderstood.

Average speed cameras allow short blasts of overspeed for overtaking and your 500m overtake in a 10km section doesn't increase your average by much as long as you return to the limit afterwards. I don't think they'll cause as many problems as you anticipate.

The first dualled section (Kincraig to Dalraddy) should be complete early 2018 and will break up a long single c/w section. So you'll see a reduction in platooning within the next 4 years with further phases of dualling opening every year thereafter.

 

[Liam]

Stirling and Kirkcaldy are > 20 minutes from Glasgow and Edinburgh so standing is not supposed to happen, the standing capacity is allowed on services which stop at Inverkeithing. Regardless of would work best, the contract has been signed and it's going to be HSTs, I just hope they're configured in a suitable manner.

At Kirkcaldy the only 'Intercity' evening peak will be the 1740 Edinburgh-Inverness which is already a 3 car 170.

The rest of the peaks are Perth (1633, 4 car 158), Dundee (1700, unsure) and the all stops Fife Circle's. The Fife Circle services will always be unit's, I imagine the majority, if not all of the Edinurgh-Dundee's will also be units, the Edinburgh-Ladybank-Perth's probably a mix of HST and units.

Edinburgh/Glasgow-Stirling-Dunblane will remain as units as they are not classed as 'Intercity' services.

 

[NotATrainspott]

How many DMUs will the ScotRail HSTs free up and then allow to be used to replace Pacers? If they prove to be a good success, how many other HSTs could have the same treatment and be used on long-distance regional runs to free up even more? If the HSTs would be going for scrap, I can't see it being massively expensive to lease them and they would cause less damage to the track than a heavy single locomotive at one end, while allowing the self-rescue and push-pull capabilities of a standard DMU set. Could they work in 2+4 formation on medium-long distance regional runs in Wales or the North of England?