HST's for Scotrails New Franchise

[HSTEd]

I've seen those - they are cool.

Potentially the future in cooking terms.

 

[bnm]

Microwave assisted convection ovens have been around for decades.

 

[HSTEd]

Microwave assisted convection ovens have been around for decades.

Indeed, but now they appear to actually be working properly.
They have been crippled by issues for years.

 

[edwin_m]

I've seen those - they are cool.

Potentially the future in cooking terms.

Is "cool" really a good thing for an oven?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Microwave assisted convection ovens have been around for decades.

I seem to recall reading the HST buffets were fitted when new with something called a "Microaire".

 

[londiscape]

I'm unconvinced that normal passengers value buffets. Most people would rather the convenience of staying in their seat. Some way to combine a trolley service with hot food (ie a small kitchen without a buffet counter) would be nice. Pretty sure CrossCountry do this, but only with baguettes and stuff.

Can't speak for my fellow normal passengers, but I certainly do value a buffet on long distance runs. I much prefer to leave my seat and go get what I want when I want it, rather than wait for the trolley to turn up. Which, depending on length of train, where you're sat, and the quality of trolley organisation, could be at any point during the journey.

 

[Muzer]

The issue I find is leaving your seat without also leaving your luggage unattended

 

[jopsuk]

if they're refurbished and introduced as 2+5, but we reckon there's room at the stations for 2+6, will someone be sensible enough to put into good storage 27(?) more carriages so they can do "we're extending your trains due to how popular they are" after a year and a half?

 

[Emyr]

Is "cool" really a good thing for an oven?

Externally, yes.

 

[Techniquest]

I've just been through the whole thread, having not had the chance when I saw this thread mentioned on Twitter last week. Eyes popped out of my head at the idea of HSTs on express services in Scotland, although I couldn't help remembering how many people slated the idea in that thread about future HST use post-IEP a while ago

It sounds like an excellent idea, shall be a much better experience than standing on a crammed-full 170 as I did from Stirling to Glasgow last Friday! Proper inter-city trains on inter-city routes, yes I like this idea very much! I predict masses of cranks all heading to Scotland when the HSTs start, myself will be included!

As for the displacement of 170s, someone mentioned 34 "express" 170s, those being the ones with First Class. I should point out there's more than 34 170s up there with First Class, 170452 is one of them. I was stood next to it on that 170 on the non-stop run (also, random note, I see the 1641 Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen is non-stop to Perth, that's got to be quite a funky experience!), I didn't see many 170s without First Class (170470-170478, the ex-SPT batch, certainly don't have First Class), indeed the ex-Hull Trains batch (170393-170396) still have First Class I believe, I didn't check too carefully) so not a great deal of Standard-only 170s for the Fife Circle!

Also worth pointing out that, unless they change things when the wires go up to Dunblane, there is also a Glasgow to Carnoustie peak hour extra with a pair of 158s, so I'd imagine that'll need either changing completely or kept with some sort of DMU.

As for the EMUs, it'll be certainly interesting to see what does happen there. Didn't know that about Millerhill depot, certainly will be interesting to see what happens to Haymarket depot in the years to come.

156s heading south of the border would make sense (I have that thread on the Scenic Lines stock to read yet, as well as anything on the Hitachi EMU order), so I kinda expect other cranks, as well as myself, to be making more trips north of the border to do their 156s up there while it can be done, same with the 314s.

Roll on the HSTs on ScotRail services I say, even though it'll mean HSTs from the Western are going. I'll be very interested to see the refurb, and just as much so what they'll do regarding fleet numbering!

 

[paul1609]

Something is being converted to further class 171s. 3 coaches on Marshlink and up to 10 on Uckfield have been promised.

 

[Class83]

Interesting to see this, though it will be disappointing if they do go for 2+5 sets as that will mean a maximum of 4 carriages of Standard Class. Given that a number of services have had Stirling, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy stops removed for capacity reasons using 2+6 would have been better and allowed these stops to be reintroduced. Not sure there is a massive demand for 1st class on these routes, certainly unless they're planning on selling a lot of cheap advance first class tickets so focusing on capacity for full fare standard class seems more sensible.

 

[455driver]

Interesting to see this, though it will be disappointing if they do go for 2+5 sets as that will mean a maximum of 4 carriages of Standard Class.

How so?
They can re-seat the coaches to any configuration they want, there used to be Composite mark 3 coaches on the E-G line when they were 47/7 operated!

 

[47802]

How so?
They can re-seat the coaches to any configuration they want, there used to be Composite mark 3 coaches on the E-G line when they were 47/7 operated!

Agreed but by the time you have factored in some form of buffet car and 1st class I doubt there would be any more than 4 standard class, even if there was a buffet/composite I doubt the standard class would have any more seats than is already lost on a TGS anyway.

Looking at video of the Chiltern conversion I can not say I that impressed by the removal of vestibule doors and instead placing them across the corridor connections, It will still be noisy and draughty when the doors are open you could argue not that much better than a suburban door design in that respect.

 

[Class83]

How so?
They can re-seat the coaches to any configuration they want, there used to be Composite mark 3 coaches on the E-G line when they were 47/7 operated!

Possible, but if the buffet is between standard & first then that would mean there will be a carriage which is 1st/buffet/std which would be odd, a composite coach and a microbuffet somewhere in the middle of standard (as for voyagers/pendolinos) would allow maybe 4 and a bit carriages.

I still think it's a bit of a waste when any carriages they don't use are likely to be off to the scrapyard. Some services are currently double 170s or 170+158 and it will reduce capacity on these when it's very easy to increase capacity.

 

[455driver]

Possible, but if the buffet is between standard & first then that would mean there will be a carriage which is 1st/buffet/std which would be odd, a composite coach and a microbuffet somewhere in the middle of standard (as for voyagers/pendolinos) would allow maybe 4 and a bit carriages.

Just like Cross Countrys HSTs then!

 

[Class83]

Just like Cross Countrys HSTs then!

Hadn't realised that the XC HSTs had a triple combo, but yes that layout does create a small pocket of 10 standard class seats. 5 full standard coaches and a Buffet/1st combo would seem the obvious layout.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It's going to be 14 rakes of 2+4(!) and 13 rakes of 2+5 apparently ( or the other way round ).

 

[HSTEd]

.....
2+4?
You must be joking. The economics on that will be awful.

 

[Aictos]

.....
2+4?
You must be joking. The economics on that will be awful.

But least it go like crap off a shovel, 2+6 imho would have been better and provided more seats?

 

[WatcherZero]

It's going to be 14 rakes of 2+4(!) and 13 rakes of 2+5 apparently ( or the other way round ).

One of the roscos proposes modifying some mk3 carriages creating driving trailers would have thought that would be far more econimical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the roscos proposes modifying some mk3 carriages creating driving trailers would have thought that would be far more econimical.

Might it not be cheaper to remove the engines from some power cars?

Neil

 

[Murph]

Might it not be cheaper to remove the engines from some power cars?

Neil

Most of the gain of doing so could be achieved by simply running with only 1 power car running, and the other shutdown. That retains the benefit of self-rescuing in the event of engine trouble. Hauling the extra weight of the shutdown power unit around shouldn't really be a huge penalty, for the benefit of not having to significantly re-engineer power cars (they would presumably need a different suspension setup, possibly even new bogies, to run with significantly reduced weight), and retaining the existing benefits of top and tail power.

Since there's not going to be any shortage of power cars, I can't see the benefits of creating HST DBSOs, but there are disadvantages. See the Polmont crash for some discussion on that. They would almost certainly not be suitable for faster than 90-100mph with a DBSO leading.

 

[Yew]

Indeed, and you dont have the gains in passenger space that a DBSO would give..


Perhaps its time to suggest this as a use for 442 cabs

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Since there's not going to be any shortage of power cars, I can't see the benefits of creating HST DBSOs, but there are disadvantages. See the Polmont crash for some discussion on that. They would almost certainly not be suitable for faster than 90-100mph with a DBSO leading.

Out of interest, how many routes on which the Scotrail HSTs will be used have line speeds above 90-100 mph?

 

[class26]

Out of interest, how many routes on which the Scotrail HSTs will be used have line speeds above 90-100 mph?

None

Apart from WCML and ECML 100 mph is the maximum (unless anyone knows different)

 

[WatcherZero]

Something about the cabs having to be extensively remodelled for new signalling equipment anyway, cant just be squeezed in like other cabs.

 

[Murph]

Something about the cabs having to be extensively remodelled for new signalling equipment anyway, cant just be squeezed in like other cabs.

Can't be squeezed into a HST cab? Or did you mean a 442 cab?

The HST cab is fairly spacious, and there's plenty of space in the back for equipment racks, etc, so seems a bit odd that it would be major effort to retrofit ERTMS to them, compared to any other loco.

 

[WatcherZero]

I believe in the porterbrook brochure for hsts, though may have been another rosco report. Existing dvt cabs need to be remodelled so may as well start from scratch and can now include seating.

 

[headshot119]

It's going to be 14 rakes of 2+4(!) and 13 rakes of 2+5 apparently ( or the other way round ).

And the source for this is ???

 

[Class83]

But least it go like crap off a shovel, 2+6 imho would have been better and provided more seats?

2+4 is absurd, unless they're planning a through service up the cairngorm funicular. The carriages would be for scrap otherwise so surely can't be that expensive, Queen Street is being extended to take 8 car so it's not a limit there.