HST's for Scotrails New Franchise

[HSTEd]

Surely they would run at the longest formation that will fit into the limiting platforms at Glasgow Queen Street?

I believe that is 2+6 or possibly 2+7.
Doing it with less would be throwing away capacity, and a 2+5 HST likely has lower capacity than 2 3-car Turbostars.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Modern Railways website is saying that they understand that HSTs will be 2+5

Quite nippy I would have thought

 

[HSTEd]

They are basically Class 255s then.

But I somehow doubt they will be able to handle the ~400 seats of a 6-car Turbostar.

 

[Monty]

Anything less than 2+6 is backwards step, you'd loose capacity otherwise.

 

[Altnabreac]

Anything less than 2+6 is backwards step, you'd loose capacity otherwise.

How many Aberdeen or Inverness diagrams are currently 6 car though? I think there's probably only a few each way so overall there will be a very big capacity increase.

For Inverness - Perth and Inverness - Aberdeen there will also be the increase in frequency to hourly to increase capacity too.

Might need the timetable tweaked slightly to run one or two extra peak busters to Aberdeen but overall I think 2 + 5 should cope pretty well.

 

[ER158715]

How many Aberdeen or Inverness diagrams are currently 6 car though? I think there's probably only a few each way so overall there will be a very big capacity increase.

For Inverness - Perth and Inverness - Aberdeen there will also be the increase in frequency to hourly to increase capacity too.

Might need the timetable tweaked slightly to run one or two extra peak busters to Aberdeen but overall I think 2 + 5 should cope pretty well.

Very few services on the Aberdeen-Inverness line are anything other than single units. The 0554 ex Inv, 1427 ex Inv are a 5 car/4 car respectively. Not sure about the ones that Aberdeen crews work though.

 

[matchmaker]

Modern Railways website is saying that they understand that HSTs will be 2+5

Quite nippy I would have thought

What formation?

PC/TGS/TS/TS/TRFB/TF/PC

or

PC/TGS/TS/TS/TS/TRFB/PC

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely there'll only be a TRFB there won't be enough first class demand for a TF and a TRFB? Unless they refurb the TRFB into a TRSB in which case I can see a TF being in the formation.

 

[Muzer]

I never got the hang of these coach designations. I assume T is trailer, G is guard (?), S is Standard and B is buffet. PC is obviously power car. What is the R?

 

[ainsworth74]

I never got the hang of these coach designations. I assume T is trailer, G is guard (?), S is Standard and B is buffet. PC is obviously power car. What is the R?

PC = Power Car
TS = Trailer Standard
TF = Trailer First
TGS = Trailer Guard Standard
TRFB = Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (basically the R indicates full kitchen) or alternatively just Trailer First Buffet as the R is basically superfluous these days so you could just go with TFB to be honest.

There is a good Wiki article on it here.

 

[WatcherZero]

Didnt Porterbook say something about HST modifications required for life extension? Something about having to create new driving trailers?

 

[455driver]

Why would they want a TRFB (or TRSB) in the formation?
Just use the seated coaches with a trolley, job done!
I would say-
TGF,TS,TS,TS,TS,TS.
or
TGS,TS,TS,TS,TS,TC.

The coaches will be refurbished so changing the interior seating wont be a big problem.

 

[matchmaker]

Why would they want a TRFB (or TRSB) in the formation?
Just use the seated coaches with a trolley, job done!
I would say-
TGF,TS,TS,TS,TS,TS.
or
TGS,TS,TS,TS,TS,TC.

The coaches will be refurbished so changing the interior seating wont be a big problem.

Good thinking!

 

[HSTEd]

Why would they want a TRFB (or TRSB) in the formation?

Because one of the stated aims fo the HSTs is to make a wider range of passenger facilities available.
This probably includes a buffet.

So perhaps a formation like:
PC-TFRM-TS-TS-TS-TSB-PC

Power Car
Trailer First Restaurant Modular
Trailer Second
Trailer Second
Trailer Second
Trailer Second Brake
Power Car

And if you add the sixth vehicle (will a 2+6 keep Turbostar travel times?) that should ideally be another Trailer Second, although you could have a formation with:
Power Car
Trailer First
Trailer Composite Restaurant Modular
Trailer Second
Trailer Second
Trailer Second
Trailer Second Brake
Power Car

 

[Muzer]

I'm unconvinced that normal passengers value buffets. Most people would rather the convenience of staying in their seat. Some way to combine a trolley service with hot food (ie a small kitchen without a buffet counter) would be nice. Pretty sure CrossCountry do this, but only with baguettes and stuff.

 

[HSTEd]

The Buffet counter on the ex Hull Trains 170s is so compact I doubt it really impinges significantly on space for passengers.
That is the sort of thing you want I believe.

 

[fgwrich]

Why not just use the TSRMB (The Mini Buffets) from the FGW Fleet? You don't have to keep the seats, but it would give a Chiltern style small buffet counter at the very least!

 

[CC 72100]

Why not just use the TSRMB (The Mini Buffets) from the FGW Fleet? You don't have to keep the seats, but it would give a Chiltern style small buffet counter at the very least!

Good plan - all the benefits of standard buffet counter but without taking up half the coach.

 

[ainsworth74]

Because one of the stated aims fo the HSTs is to make a wider range of passenger facilities available.
This probably includes a buffet.

Good plan - all the benefits of standard buffet counter but without taking up half the coach.

Well it goes on about having 'galley catering' to me this suggests a full buffet (i.e. having a kitchen) as I'm not sure you can really apply the term 'galley' to a Micro Buffet as you can't really prepare much food in one beyond a microwave.

Now it could be that's all their after in which case I agree Micro Buffet would make the most sense but why use the term 'galley'? In any event we'll no doubt have to wait until more details beyond what's in the brochure are published to get a better idea of exactly what's going to happen.

 

[Altnabreac]

Why not just use the TSRMB (The Mini Buffets) from the FGW Fleet? You don't have to keep the seats, but it would give a Chiltern style small buffet counter at the very least!

The franchise brochure states "HSTs with at seat and galley catering."

That confirms more than just a trolley but probably more like the FGW mini buffet concept.

I could see 2/3 of a coach of First class being enough so 1 coach with mini buffet, bike spaces, luggage etc and first class being combined with 4 TSs.

Also makes sense to have the galley next to first class for whatever food offering you want to offer first class passengers.

 

[fgwrich]

Well it goes on about having 'galley catering' to me this suggests a full buffet (i.e. having a kitchen) as I'm not sure you can really apply the term 'galley' to a Micro Buffet as you can't really prepare much food in one beyond a microwave.

Now it could be that's all their after in which case I agree Micro Buffet would make the most sense but why use the term 'galley'? In any event we'll no doubt have to wait until more details beyond what's in the brochure are published to get a better idea of exactly what's going to happen.

The franchise brochure states "HSTs with at seat and galley catering."

That confirms more than just a trolley but probably more like the FGW mini buffet concept.

I could see 2/3 of a coach of First class being enough so 1 coach with mini buffet, bike spaces, luggage etc and first class being combined with 4 TSs.

Also makes sense to have the galley next to first class for whatever food offering you want to offer first class passengers.

I must admit my first thoughts were similar to yours - Would they use a former 407XX TRSB/TRFB for the catering, but remembering the weight of those then the mini buffet came into my mind. Bigger and better than a trolley, but still small enough to allow a good level of seats - the very same reasons as to why FGW created them in the first place. The other thing that hints Mini Buffet to me is the Galley Catering - Doesn't XC refer to their Voyagers as having some form of Galley Catering for the FC Passengers - Ok it's probably little more than a microwave and coffee machine set up in the former bike space behind the cabs, but still. Unless Holyrood has been paying attention to the WAG Express.

 

[HSTEd]

A WAG express lookalike would need a whole carriage for catering and restaurant and so on.

Which means 2+6 becomes an absolute necessity.

 

[Xavi]

It's been confirmed that the Scotland HSTs will be ex FGW and FGW has 27 full kitchen TRFB, the same as the number of HST sets for Scotland. There are only 19 mini-buffet vehicles. However, if Scotland was to have the TRFBs then there are non left for Paddington - Penzance. So, unless Hopwood is talking about IEPs for Penzance in the Direct Award extension, then it's almost certainly mini-buffets, including some more conversions, for Scotland. Makes sense as those sets will be the first ones released from FGW with Swansea and Penzance routes retaining the full kitchen sets and 6 smaller kitchen carriages.

 

[jopsuk]

It's been confirmed that the Scotland HSTs will be ex FGW

It has?

 

[Xavi]

It has?

Yep. Definitely read it elsewhere and there aren't 27 in any other current fleet.

 

[ainsworth74]

Right so what's the source then?

 

[Manchester77]

Right so what's the source then?

Modern railways:

80 new trains to be introduced from December 2017, for which Hitachi has been announced as the preferred bidder, followed by the introduction of 27 fully refurbished High Speed Trains (HSTs) on long distance routes linking Scotland’s seven cities from December 2018; Modern Railways understands that Abellio plans to introduce ‘2+5’ HST sets which will be coming off lease with First Great Western and will feature an improved first class and catering offer compared to the current Turbostars

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=8402&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10

 

[HSTEd]

I suppose if the other FGW Mark 3s just end up in store as they come off lease there is nothing to stop them adding other vehicles in the future.

Just worry all the rest of the FGW fleet will simply get scrapped and that will be the end of it.

How about a few sets to run the various WAG trains?

 

[ainsworth74]

Modern railways:

Many thanks

 

[bnm]

Well it goes on about having 'galley catering' to me this suggests a full buffet (i.e. having a kitchen) as I'm not sure you can really apply the term 'galley' to a Micro Buffet as you can't really prepare much food in one beyond a microwave.

The Micro Buffets have a Merrychef accelerated cooking oven. It uses a combination of convection, impingement and microwave heating. Allows for a wider range of food items to be prepared than microwave alone. Far better results with bread products as well.