Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

[najaB]

This may or not be the same surveyor, but the message is the same...

It certainly doesn't contradict anything in the video/photos that have appeared so far.

 

[w0033944]

More expert testimony from the BBC live page:

Hannah Mansell, chair of the Passive Fire Protection Forum and spokesperson for the British Woodworking Federation's Fire Door Safety Week campaign, said people had "a right to be very angry at the news about Grenfell Tower".

"I regularly sit in meetings with fire safety professionals, and their fury and frustration at the inaction of local councils and social landlords is palpable," she said.

“There is an endemic fire safety problem in this type of housing stock. I have walked around tower blocks documenting and filming the fire safety breaches.

"I’ve seen flats without fire doors, no emergency lighting or signage on fire doors and escape routes, broken fire rated glass, wedged-open fire doors, poor fire stopping around service hatches that breach compartmentation, no smoke seals in fire doors, rubbish and combustible material left in the common areas, and no information displayed on the specific fire plan of the building.

“But that information appears to fall on deaf ears. Action must be taken now to address these issues."

 

[Groningen]

It is a mystery how a local fire (short circuit in a fridge?!) can spread to the complete building.

 

[Dai Corner]

It is a mystery how a local fire (short circuit in a fridge?!) can spread to the complete building.

Via the cladding, by the sound of it so far.

 

[Strathclyder]

It's an absolutely terrible thing, I can't even begin to imagine what the people at the top of the building have gone through

One can scarcely imagine a more nightmarish way to die than this. Chills me to the core just thinking about what those poor souls trapped on the very top floors must have went through...

 

[jonathan01n]

RIP to the victims and hope the injured can have a speedy recovery. Such a tragic news.

 

[najaB]

Via the cladding, by the sound of it so far.

Being careful not to prejudge the investigation, that does sound like the leading theory.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One can scarcely imagine a more nightmarish way to die than this. Chills me to the core just thinking about what those poor souls trapped on the very top floors must have went through...

Agreed. Absolutely awful. And also, what friends and relatives of those who died in the building are now going to be going through emotionally for a long time.

And I can't help but wonder about those who live in similar tower blocks - there must be tens of thousands of people who are going to be terrified every time they go to bed for the foreseeable future - at least until the cause has been identified and any necessary remedial work on other blocks around the country has been completed - and I imagine that will take many months as an absolute minimum.

 

[Darandio]

and any necessary remedial work on other blocks around the country has been completed - and I imagine that will take many months as an absolute minimum.

If ever for some. Given many will be council owned and funding applications may well be rejected as all the money has gone to Northern Ireland.

Cynical maybe, but it's been one of those weeks.

 

[najaB]

...and any necessary remedial work on other blocks around the country has been completed - and I imagine that will take many months as an absolute minimum.

Where many could well be a double-digit multiple of 12.

(If you're not in the mood for maths, that's a decade or more).

 

[w0033944]

Agreed. Absolutely awful. And also, what friends and relatives of those who died in the building are now going to be going through emotionally for a long time.

And I can't help but wonder about those who live in similar tower blocks - there must be tens of thousands of people who are going to be terrified every time they go to bed for the foreseeable future - at least until the cause has been identified and any necessary remedial work on other blocks around the country has been completed - and I imagine that will take many months as an absolute minimum.

If many of the experts whose learned testimony has been disseminated via. the media today are even half correct in their views, then most of these structures that have been modified in the last few years may have been clad in insulation (under the outer panels) which are of limited or non-existent fire resistance. It sounds as though I'm being sensationalist, but one such expert was saying earlier that he examined a three year-old structure recently, found polyurethane insulation under cladding, and was shocked when a lump of it caught fire after exposure to a cigarette lighter.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Has the building fire been put out yet?

 

[AlterEgo]

Has the building fire been put out yet?

Nope.

 

[Y961 XBU]

I am very surprised its still standing as it must be in a right state by now

 

[RichmondCommu]

The whole thing is desperately sad, I can't imagine what it must be like to know that you are waiting to die, that you are trapped and nothing can be done.

We have been over tonight to try and do our bit having stopped at the supermarket on the way. That is the only positive thing from this as normally aloof Londoners do their best to try and help.

Of course its often the disadvantaged and less well off who live in these tower blocks and I wonder how many of the survivors had their belongings insured. I hope those that maintain / refurbished the building have deep pockets.

 

[najaB]

I am very surprised its still standing as it must be in a right state by now

The London Fire Brigade did say that there was some doubt about the integrity of the building. However if, as suspected, the fire was largely the cladding then it would have burned fast but not extremely hot.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Am sure i read before the company that refurbished the Building when into Admin so they no longer exist

 

[w0033944]

Am sure i read before the company that refurbished the Building when into Admin so they no longer exist

This is correct to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Busaholic]

Am sure i read before the company that refurbished the Building when into Admin so they no longer exist

If they're in administration, they still exist, legally speaking.

Somebody employed in the area of ensuring building regulations are adhered to was interviewed on the radio. He was asked if a sprinkler system could have prevented the fire spreading: he replied that a sprinkler system would (not could) have stopped it in its tracks. When asked how much such a system would have cost to be retrofitted as part of the refurbishment he was very specific. If I heard the figure correctly it was between 3 and 4 thousand pounds per flat.

What price human life?

 

[najaB]

Somebody employed in the area of ensuring building regulations are adhered to was interviewed on the radio. He was asked if a sprinkler system could have prevented the fire spreading: he replied that a sprinkler system would (not could) have stopped it in its tracks.

That's a bold statement to make without knowing exactly how the fire started. If, as is being suggested, the fire spread through the cladding material on the outside of the building it's hard to see how a sprinkler system would have stopped it from spreading. It may well have stopped the fire from penetrating back into the building however.

 

[w0033944]

If they're in administration, they still exist, legally speaking.

Somebody employed in the area of ensuring building regulations are adhered to was interviewed on the radio. He was asked if a sprinkler system could have prevented the fire spreading: he replied that a sprinkler system would (not could) have stopped it in its tracks. When asked how much such a system would have cost to be retrofitted as part of the refurbishment he was very specific. If I heard the figure correctly it was between 3 and 4 thousand pounds per flat.

What price human life?

Evidently less than £3-4000. There was an article in New Scientist a couple of months ago explaining how the value of a human life is calculated for different purposes, but I didn't read it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I am very surprised its still standing as it must be in a right state by now

The London Fire Brigade did say that there was some doubt about the integrity of the building. However if, as suspected, the fire was largely the cladding then it would have burned fast but not extremely hot.

Subconscious comparisons with the collapse of the twin Towers on 9/11 are not really valid. Those collapses occurred due to a combination of distortion of the central cores caused by the impact of the aircraft and a high fire temperature, exacerbated by the presence of so much aviation fuel, eventually causing the rebar in the concrete to soften and fail.

Firefighters at Grenfell have been to the top floor: I doubt that would have happened if the structural integrity was in serious doubt.

As for the cladding another issue is that cladding in general is not attached directly to the outer surface of a structure but "hangs" slightly proud of it leaving a small air gap between the two elements. If the integrity of the cladding becomes compromised in some way then that air gap acts very readily as a chimney allowing flames to spread upwards very rapidly. The pictures of the fire at its height certainly were suggestive of just such a process taking place.

While it is easy for us all to engage in distasteful speculation in the absence, as yet, of proper evidence of exactly what happened when my own feeling is that it all stinks of incompetence, or corruption, or quite possibly both.

Very distressing, my heart goes out to all who have been affected.

 

[IanXC]

Alongside those who have perished whilst trapped on the higher floors, I also can't get out of my mind the suggestion that there were still people trapped hours later, I seem to recall maybe 10 hours later?

Their experience also stands out in my mind, and clearly will in their minds for the rest of their lives.

 

[BestWestern]

Alongside those who have perished whilst trapped on the higher floors, I also can't get out of my mind the suggestion that there were still people trapped hours later, I seem to recall maybe 10 hours later?

Their experience also stands out in my mind, and clearly will in their minds for the rest of their lives.

These presumably were those fortunate enough to be in the unburned corner of the building. They'll be shellshocked, but also no doubt very aware of how incredibly fortunate they were.

As for sprinklers within the flats themselves, I think there are probably fairly clear reasons why that would be deemed a non-starter. The damage every time somebody burned their toast would be problematic, particularly if you're flooding a flat half way up the tower.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sprinklers aren't triggered by burning the toast, they aren't there for small fires. They have a metal plug that remains in place until it melts (or a glass one that remains in place until it pops) in the heat of a proper fire.

Edit: even electronic heat detectors don't get triggered by any normal cooking incident of that nature, that's the whole point of them, they are meant to detect proper fires. I have one in my kitchen and thus far I haven't triggered it, and no the battery isn't flat.

 

[jon0844]

Evidently less than £3-4000. There was an article in New Scientist a couple of months ago explaining how the value of a human life is calculated for different purposes, but I didn't read it.

4 grand per flat, multiplied by all the flats in a block, multiplied by the number of blocks (3 or 4000 apparently?).

I can see why other ideas would be employed, and assume there are fires in tower blocks fairly often that are contained. That doesn't help demands for active systems, especially if the cause of this turns out to be something that stopped the containment idea to work.

My wife was off yesterday but works for a housing trust. Part of her job is writing to leaseholders to warn them about leaving doors open, putting items in stairwells etc. Many don't comply as they don't want to keep certain things in their property (e.g. bikes or buggies). This is what concerns me: you have systems and regulations but human behaviour can undo everything in a heartbeat.

 

[najaB]

Sprinklers aren't triggered by burning the toast, they aren't there for small fires. They have a metal plug that remains in place until it melts (or a glass one that remains in place until it pops) in the heat of a proper fire.

Indeed, the sitcom scenario of the sprinklers being set off by a the candles on a birthday cake or the action hero setting them off by holding a lighter up to the head are both pretty much divorced from the truth.

If the fire is enough to set off the sprinklers then there's already a significant amount of damage been done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

4 grand per flat, multiplied by all the flats in a block, multiplied by the number of blocks (3 or 4000 apparently?).

In most cases the leaseholder just gets billed for their share of work.

 

[BestWestern]

Sprinklers aren't triggered by burning the toast, they aren't there for small fires. They have a metal plug that remains in place until it melts (or a glass one that remains in place until it pops) in the heat of a proper fire.

Edit: even electronic heat detectors don't get triggered by any normal cooking incident of that nature, that's the whole point of them, they are meant to detect proper fires. I have one in my kitchen and thus far I haven't triggered it, and no the battery isn't flat.

Ah! Fair enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My wife was off yesterday but works for a housing trust. Part of her job is writing to leaseholders to warn them about leaving doors open, putting items in stairwells etc. Many don't comply as they don't want to keep certain things in their property (e.g. bikes or buggies). This is what concerns me: you have systems and regulations but human behaviour can undo everything in a heartbeat.

Though it is perhaps better to look at positive solutions to these problems - for example secure bike storage areas with proper Sheffield stands covered by CCTV would mean I wouldn't want to be lugging my bike up the stairs.

"Thou shalt not do X" usually gets ignored. "Wouldn't it be better to do Y?" is more likely to get a positive response.