Hull Trains 180s

[racklam]

The 1148 King's Cross to Hull was a Grand Central liveried 180 this morning, complete with Hull Trains antimacassars.

I know Grand Central have had some old FGW 180s delivered recently - have some been swapped with Hull Trains as well?

 

[43096]

The 1148 King's Cross to Hull was a Grand Central liveried 180 this morning, complete with Hull Trains antimacassars.

I know Grand Central have had some old FGW 180s delivered recently - have some been swapped with Hull Trains as well?

I assume this is a GC set on hire to Hull Trains. All the GWR sets have gone to Grand Central and there has been no other swap-round of sets on a permanent basis.

 

[Kieran1990]

I believed HT have a daily hire from GC due to the HT 180 that sprung that almighty leak at Peterbourgh a while back.

 

[robbeech]

There’s at least one more hired in set this week too. Really bad time for Hull Trains at the moment. There has been at least one ocassions where they have only had 1 of their own trains working.

 

[ainsworth74]

almighty leak at Peterbourgh

I mean that's one way of describing an engine chewing itself up into oblivion but it's not perhaps how I'd describe it

 

[Gemz91]

There’s at least one more hired in set this week too. Really bad time for Hull Trains at the moment. There has been at least one ocassions where they have only had 1 of their own trains working.

Surely this must have some large financial impacts on Hull Trains?

 

[robbeech]

Surely this must have some large financial impacts on Hull Trains?

I'm not sure how they keep going if i'm honest but they keep smiling and making some trains move between some stations. It is important to note that whilst i have major issues with the TOC as they have cost me thousands of pounds in lost earnings my issue is with the top level rather than with the rest of the staff who generally do an excellent job in coping with such a poor service and putting up with us lot moaning at them.
I am not sure who maintains the hired in 180s but if we suddenly see a drop in reliability of them whilst they're with HT then we ought to know where to point the finger.

 

[jimm]

There may be issues around maintenance and reliability - but then you could say those things about the 180s ever since they were built.

Maintenance work for Hull Trains' sets switched from Old Oak Common to Crofton at the end of last year, due to the rundown of Old Oak Common depot and GWR sending its last 180s off to Grand Central.

There may be a connection between the switch of maintenance location and HT's current problems, there may not.

 

[IanXC]

I believe an increasing amount of Grand Central's 180 maintenance is now also undertaken at Crofton.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Bi-Mode Hitachis are due at HullTrains in 2019 so these long-running issues with Class 180s (which are, IMO, otherwise, nice to ride in) should be consigned to history.

 

[westv]

Bi-Mode Hitachis are due at HullTrains in 2019 so these long-running issues with Class 180s (which are, IMO, otherwise, nice to ride in) should be consigned to history.

Although that's still a long way off though as I can't imagine they'll be around in the first half of 2019.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure how they keep going if i'm honest but they keep smiling and making some trains move between some stations. It is important to note that whilst i have major issues with the TOC as they have cost me thousands of pounds in lost earnings my issue is with the top level rather than with the rest of the staff who generally do an excellent job in coping with such a poor service and putting up with us lot moaning at them.
I am not sure who maintains the hired in 180s but if we suddenly see a drop in reliability of them whilst they're with HT then we ought to know where to point the finger.

I guess it depends on how much they are paying GC to borrow 180s. GC don't really need all their units yet and 1 or 2 would otherwise unused

 

[robbeech]

I guess it depends on how much they are paying GC to borrow 180s. GC don't really need all their units yet and 1 or 2 would otherwise unused

Agreed, however, compared to

• Delay repay to their own passengers (countless cancelled services meaning 2 hour waits if you are on a HT only ticket and over 90 minute regardless if you are at Retford)
• Delay repay to passengers on other services affected when they breakdown and block lines. (I personally had claims of well over £100 due to delays between NCL and EDB on VTEC caused as a knock on effect of one of their trains failing north of Peterborough)
• Payment to allow ticket acceptance on VTEC on the ECML and Northern between Doncaster and Hull/Beverley. (Not cheap to allow passengers who have paid £20 to travel King's Cross to Retford on the 1548 being put on the 1633 Leeds train on which only anytime tickets are valid). I appreciate they don't get charged full ticket prices etc.
• Replacement bus costs (Often fairly long distance, Doncaster to Peterborough isn't unheard of)
• Taxi costs (quite often there have been at least a dozen or so taxis running from Grantham to Retford etc per train)

I would think the cost to hire in the GWR sets is (whilst not insignificant) a relatively small portion.

 

[xc170]

Out of interest, why did HT ditch the 222's in favour of the 180's?

I'm guessing the answer is a 180 is a cheaper unit to lease...

 

[IanXC]

Out of interest, why did HT ditch the 222's in favour of the 180's?

I'm guessing the answer is a 180 is a cheaper unit to lease...

I guess the selling point for them was 5 coaches verses 4 coaches, but I understand the DfT had a significant priority to secure the 222s for the EMT franchise...

 

[xc170]

I guess the selling point for them was 5 coaches verses 4 coaches, but I understand the DfT had a significant priority to secure the 222s for the EMT franchise...

How would that work though, in regards to the DfT, with HT being a private company, I can't imagine the DfT can just say we're having your trains, sort yourselves some replacements.

 

[IanXC]

How would that work though, in regards to the DfT, with HT being a private company, I can't imagine the DfT can just say we're having your trains, sort yourselves some replacements.

Heres a post on the forum at the time:

EMT does not have enough Meridians to run the Corby services. Apparently they thought the Hull Trains 222s were up for grabs when they bid for the franchise. Turns out they wasn't. Special words were had by some minister and the head of first group and they agreed the release the 222s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Bi-Mode Hitachis are due at HullTrains in 2019 so these long-running issues with Class 180s (which are, IMO, otherwise, nice to ride in) should be consigned to history.

Hopefully they will not come too late and as part of a huge fleet based at a purpose built manufacturer maintenance depot at Doncaster they will not suffer the same unreliability. Also the East Coast sets should be able to rescue them if need be!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I understand the DfT had a significant priority to secure the 222s for the EMT franchise...

I thought the significant damage to 222103 also played a part?

 

[racklam]

I guess it depends on how much they are paying GC to borrow 180s. GC don't really need all their units yet and 1 or 2 would otherwise unused

You say "yet" - are GC planning on doubling up trains at some point in the future?

 

[swt_passenger]

You say "yet" - are GC planning on doubling up trains at some point in the future?

Yes. It is what GC announced a few years back as one of the advantages of going all 180. The could also split and join trains to/from two destinations.

Their Dec 2017 press release about HST withdrawal also mentions the possibility of running 10 car trains.

 

[Chester1]

According to Modern Railways they are also planning a Cleethorpes service by splitting Bradford services at Doncaster, which would require the Hull Trains 180s to have the whole class (14 units). No confirmation on that yet though but ORR said they would have accepted their previous Cleethorpes application if it had not been linked to the Bradford via Leeds application. Regardless of this, there is certainly the demand south of York and Doncaster for 10 coach sets.

 

[pdeaves]

Heres a post on the forum at the time:

EMT does not have enough Meridians to run the Corby services. Apparently they thought the Hull Trains 222s were up for grabs when they bid for the franchise. Turns out they wasn't. Special words were had by some minister and the head of first group and they agreed the release the 222s.

Yes, whilst there was no obligation for HT to release the 222s (they could have said 'go away'), a deal was made. If the right money changes hands, issues get resolved!

 

[humbersidejim]

I'm sure I recall a change of specification regarding the length of units they operate being made by the regulator to their renewed track access application, which meant they really had no choice but to take the 180s. Does anyone else remember this?

Fingers crossed they can soldier on for the next 12/18 months without it damaging their business too badly.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I'm sure I recall a change of specification regarding the length of units they operate being made by the regulator to their renewed track access application, which meant they really had no choice but to take the 180s. Does anyone else remember this?

Fingers crossed they can soldier on for the next 12/18 months without it damaging their business too badly.

On the right lines but not quite. To get your length of term in the track access contract, you have to propose and sign up to certain investment conditions. HT proposed taking on the 180 units and doing a certain amount of refurb. work as part of the track access application. The ORR made that an enforceable condition and if it wasn't done, the TAC would revert to being a shorter one.

When (as an OAO) you apply for a TAA, the ORR examine your business plan in some detail. The time it takes to recover costs and what rate of return you need to seek has a strong bearing on the length of term they grant you in their determination.

The current difficulties are as a result of 110 being out for the fuel tank (and other) repairs and the need to stop other units as they fall due for mileage exams. 180 units usually have a fair amount of repairs arising so each B exam takes a few days, especially if it results in an engine needing to be swapped out. The repair of 110 is going well and it should be back in traffic next month. Until then GC are helping HT out, when they can.

 

[lincolnshire]

Out of interest, why did HT ditch the 222's in favour of the 180's?

I'm guessing the answer is a 180 is a cheaper unit to lease...

It also didn,t help Hull trains when Croften depot dropped the middle of one of there 4 car 222 trains while on the lifting jacks, which really messed up there service as they had to hire an electric loco and coaches to run from Kings Cross to Doncaster then transfer or bus passengers onto Hull and from Hull for the next service to Kings Cross.
Hope they don,t drop any 180 sets while they are on depot for maintenance.

 

[lincolnshire]

If you looked at last weeks Hull Trains site up to about Thursday this week was to have been cancellation,s and bus / taxi journeys in various locations all week because more than 2 trains or something needed maintenance, but the day and service was saved by been able to hire another Grand Central set to be able to run the service as normal this week.

 

[rustbucket]

Indeed

The service I was on a passenger on this evening was cancelled last week and then the cancellation was cancelled as only Hull Trains can

The unit on this evenings service 180111 was a proper Hull Trains unit but sounded absolutely wrecked and as rough as they come - a fact that was born out by looking at all it’s services today, it has spent the whole day losing time for time for no good reason other than the fact that it is is knackered and cant keep up.

The staff like the passengers cant wait for the new trains to arrive next year

 

[humbersidejim]

MD Will Dunnett has left Hull Trains:

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...s-rise-over-reliability-of-services-1-9054127

Despite their claims of "persistent snow and ice" being "unrelated" to previous problems with the 180s, the situation really doesn't look good at all. In the least, the risk of reputational damage is significant.

Short of 180s from GC, do they have any other options in the short term?

Is there any other stock out there which could provide some resilience until the 802s arrive late next year?

 

[D365]

365s + 57 last-mile haulage?