Hustle alarm

[Taunton]

Most of the stock didn't have power doors that can shut with considerable force.

The line quoted by the OP has had stock with power doors since 1939.

 

[headshot119]

I can only talk for my toc but even the rule book states all doors closed before giving the ready to start signal. It would be a direct violation to go against that

I've spoken to someone at Merseyrail today and they've confirmed what is said be below this.

It's long been a thing on Merseyrail that they gave two on the bell before the door had shut.

Guards ARE allowed to dispatch a train with the local cab door not fully closed,however it must be in the process of closing when the bell is given. This is official as it comes under a local instruction.
Guards would never be able to dispatch a Merseyrail train from the coach with the local door open however as the driver couldn't obtain traction interlock

 

[jamesst]

I can only talk for my toc but even the rule book states all doors closed before giving the ready to start signal. It would be a direct violation to go against that

Yeah it comes under a local instruction that basically overrules that part of the main rule book. All official and passed by all the relevant bodies! There's certain other local instructions too,I was always under the impression other TOCs had them?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So if people are more likely to be distracted and make mistakes, design the Railway so that it's less easy for them to make these mistakes (e.g. with hustle alarms), or so that if they do make a mistake, it's easy for them to rectify it before they get hurt/killed....

I think the easiest way to solve the problem would be to remove people from the railway, an outright ban perhaps, there are some minor draw backs with this, not least the lack of ticket selling which would adversely affect my wage, but it does seem that it would rid the railway of something that could possibly be the most troublesome part of it's operation.

Of course, if people were to self regulate, to take responsibility for their own actions for example, then maybe some of the risk might be removed....

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .

Of course, if people were to self regulate, to take responsibility for their own actions for example, then maybe some of the risk might be removed....

If only, . . . . . what a perfect world that would be!

Without all the stupid behaviour which leads to injuries or losses, and which is then followed by some claim based on 'my rights', and which in turn has generated a mass of risk-aversion policies, far-reaching self-protecting safety procedures, and a mini-industry based on pursuing claims by service users for the consequencies of irresponsibility, then I believe we would have a more effective, efficient and affordable world.
And that definitely includes the railways.

But to return to reality; . . . . we live in a litigious world, and blame is thrown about like a ball in a sports game, while 'responsibility' is presumed to attach to service providers but is hazardous to presume of users.

 

[satisnek]

Retrofitted, surprisingly recently (mid 1990s).

Ah, thanks. One of those things you become so used to that you assume it has always been there!

 

[theageofthetra]

Worth pointing out that there are high density metro systems around the world that dispatch with an intermediate door open the entire length of the platform. The guard can then be sure there isn't a platform/train interface issue. Sydney, Melbourne, Beijing, Shanghai from personal experience and am sure there will be others.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are there many classes of unit where the train can move where a guard is "keyed in" at a local door?

 

[Ambient Sheep]

My father, who grew up in west London, has more than once told me of a 'game' he and his mates played when they were lads... They would get off at each station during their Underground journey, stand right at the back of the platform and attempt to get back on as the doors were closing. The trick, he says, was to listen for the 'pshhh' from the door mechanism and run like hell! See, there were schoolboys who played up even in the 1940s!

Many years later, late 1970s to be precise, he got a new job which involved a degree of foreign travel...

Heh, um, I must confess that as a schoolboy in the late 1970s, myself and my friends may have played that game once or twice at the other end of the Central Line. We soon gave it up as a bad job though, as it was clearly a bit dangerous (not least to our eardrums once the guard spotted us).

I do miss the '62 stock.

 

[3141]

My father, who grew up in west London, has more than once told me of a 'game' he and his mates played when they were lads... They would get off at each station during their Underground journey, stand right at the back of the platform and attempt to get back on as the doors were closing. The trick, he says, was to listen for the 'pshhh' from the door mechanism and run like hell! See, there were schoolboys who played up even in the 1940s!

Fantastic! I never tried that game, but you could certainly tell when the doors were about to close - from a click, as I recall it, on Underground Standard Stock. So if you were hurrying onto the platform, and you heard that click, you could make a final spurt to get yourself on board through the closing doors, or decide to wait for the next train.

The whole of the Underground before the 1992 stock, - the difference was that passengers knew that the doors would close when the guard blew up. They didn't then try to beat the doors.
QUOTE]

But the guard didn't "blow up". He might shout "Mind the doors", but many did not, and anyway you might not hear it at the other end of the platform. You just knew that about 15 seconds after the doors had opened they would close again. Less time than that off-peak, longer during the rush hour. And you might still try to beat them, as I described above.

To me, the hustle sound isn't a matter of safety, but simply a piece of information that the doors are about to close. On a main line railway it very rarely happens before I've got on, but if it did I'd regard at as a sign I needed to hurry, because it might be 30 minutes or more till the next train.

 

[8J]

One observation I have is that it is often very difficult to hear the hustle alarms going off on the underground stations. What with the noise of:

- The compressor(s) - loud ones in the case of some 508's
- The resistor fans on the units (again some very loud ones on certain units)
- The constant belittling safety announcements splerting out at Merseyrail stations
- Escallator noise
- Other trains coming and going (in the case of Central and Moorfields Northern line platforms)

 

[causton]

Are there many classes of unit where the train can move where a guard is "keyed in" at a local door?

Surely most should/must be as the guard should be at the panel for the entire length of the platform when departing in case they need to request an emergency stop! You can see on some stock e.g. Desiros a flashing body indicator light which indicates where the guard is keyed in and this is active up to 5mph-ish...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there many classes of unit where the train can move where a guard is "keyed in" at a local door?

Keyed in? All of them (you can't give 2 buzzes if not keyed in). With the door open? PEP EMUs, 455s (maybe) and 150/1s are the only ones I can think of.


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[Phil.]

How did we manage back in the day when we didn't have "hustle alarms"?

We had common sense and could think for ourselves and know not to hang around doors as they could close without warning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Worth pointing out that there are high density metro systems around the world that dispatch with an intermediate door open the entire length of the platform. The guard can then be sure there isn't a platform/train interface issue. Sydney, Melbourne, Beijing, Shanghai from personal experience and am sure there will be others.

It used to be common to see Paris suburban stock travelling with passengers loaded and all the doors open in hot weather.

 

[Taunton]

It used to be common to see Paris suburban stock travelling with passengers loaded and all the doors open in hot weather.

The "Classic" Paris Metro stock, last ran in the 1980s, had hand-opened sliding doors with an air piston which pushed them closed for departure. After a few seconds this withdrew (it was visible through the adjacent window glass) and the doors could then be slid open between stations - and in warm weather they often were. Approaching the next station the air piston went against the door again and was released when the train came to a stand, thus controlling those trying to open the doors just before the train stopped, BR slam door style. All this controlled manually with no interlocks by the conductor, who rode in the front cab with the driver so could not observe the dispatch once started.

 

[Phil.]

The "Classic" Paris Metro stock, last ran in the 1980s, had hand-opened sliding doors with an air piston which pushed them closed for departure. After a few seconds this withdrew (it was visible through the adjacent window glass) and the doors could then be slid open between stations - and in warm weather they often were. Approaching the next station the air piston went against the door again and was released when the train came to a stand, thus controlling those trying to open the doors just before the train stopped, BR slam door style. All this controlled manually with no interlocks by the conductor, who rode in the front cab with the driver so could not observe the dispatch once started.

It must have run later - or similar stock used - as I can clearly remember approaching St. Germain (sp?) on a Eurostar train and seeing a suburban train rattling along stuffed with punters with all the doors open. Probably circa 1994/5.

 

[coppercapped]

It must have run later - or similar stock used - as I can clearly remember approaching St. Germain (sp?) on a Eurostar train and seeing a suburban train rattling along stuffed with punters with all the doors open. Probably circa 1994/5.

Probably St. Denis just outside the Gare du Nord if you were on a Eurostar. Running with open doors was quite common, especially in hot weather, on several routes using just-post-war suburban rolling stock.