I was an idiot. Preparing myself for consequences with Govia Thameslink.

[Puffing Devil]

True. Though doing so is advisable if you're intending on making a guilty plea since it earns you a discount.

No. You still get full credit for an early guilty plea if you do so on your first appearance at court.

 

[Izzy38]

Do you think I have any chance of them settling out of court? I will offer my willingness to do that in my reply to them.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Do you think I have any chance of them settling out of court? I will offer my willingness to do that in my reply to them.

There is always a chance, as others have found out. You have nothing to lose in writing to them to apologise for this offence and offering to settle out of court. If it does go to court, there is, again, the chance of reaching an agreement with the prosecutor on the day.

However, you have committed the offence and the TOCs are very keen to clamp down on abuse of Carnet Tickets.

 

[Izzy38]

Thanks Puffing Devil.

 

[Izzy38]

This is my letter so far, I've been very honest about my actions and how I am approaching it. Do people feel it strikes the right tone and has the right information in it?

Dear Sir/Madam,

REF: XXXXXXXXX

I would like to thank you for your letter (dated XXXXX) and am extremely grateful to you for allowing me the opportunity to tell you what happened, factually and honestly.

On the morning of XXXXX I boarded the XX.XX train to XXXX at XXXX with an altered carnet ticket for XXXX to London stations. I had used it the previous day, on XXXX, and altered it to show the date of XXXX.

During that journey my ticket was checked by a revenue protection inspector who identified that it had been altered. He politely and professionally questioned me about my ticket. I did not admit to him that I had altered the ticket, which I realise was not only very wrong but also incredibly stupid, and may have caused Govia Thameslink additional work. I can only say that in the moment my fear and panicking, and being surrounded by other passengers, meant that I did not think through that I should just have admitted what I had done. I was, however, cooperative and polite in answering his questions.

I am mortified that I did this. I have thought long and hard since that day about why I did this, and I can only say that I thought to save myself some time and a bit of money during cash strapped month, and that having spent a large part of the previous months travelling away from my family for work, I was tired and my judgement awry. Ever since my encounter with the inspector I realise what I have done is wrong and incredibly stupid. I don't know what I was thinking. I am a parent to two young children and work for a charity and volunteer in my community – I have, until this moment, been a law-abiding person in every way. Since this incident, I have discussed the moral issues of my actions with my family and read up on fare evasion. I don’t know why at the time I justified to myself to try and evade a fare, but I now fully realise how gravely wrong what I did was.

This by no way is an excuse, and I sincerely promise that I will never do this again. This has been my first offence and I can assure you it will be my last. I have used the railway between XXXX and London for over 10 years without any such incident happening before. I would be completely willing to commit to not using carnet tickets again.

Therefore in regards to the following that has been alleged
* entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel and
* Altering a ticket with intent.

I admit both counts and would like to offer my humble, sincerest apologies to you and your team.

I am aware such actions cost Govia Thameslink Railway financially and take up a huge amount of time. I would therefore like to offer a settlement to recognise this and avoid it being escalated further. I would like to offer payment of costs incurred as a result of my inappropriate, thoughtless and frankly stupid actions, along with the cost of the fare avoided, and a voluntary contribution in light of my wrongdoing.

Once again I would like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my version of events in regards to the morning of XXXXX.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

 

[falcon]

This is my letter so far, I've been very honest about my actions and how I am approaching it. Do people feel it strikes the right tone and has the right information in it?

Dear Sir/Madam,

REF: XXXXXXXXX

I would like to thank you for your letter (dated XXXXX) and am extremely grateful to you for allowing me the opportunity to tell you what happened, factually and honestly.

On the morning of XXXXX I boarded the XX.XX train to XXXX at XXXX with an altered carnet ticket for XXXX to London stations. I had used it the previous day, on XXXX, and altered it to show the date of XXXX.

During that journey my ticket was checked by a revenue protection inspector who identified that it had been altered. He politely and professionally questioned me about my ticket. I did not admit to him that I had altered the ticket, which I realise was not only very wrong but also incredibly stupid, and may have caused Govia Thameslink additional work. I can only say that in the moment my fear and panicking, and being surrounded by other passengers, meant that I did not think through that I should just have admitted what I had done. I was, however, cooperative and polite in answering his questions.

I am mortified that I did this. I have thought long and hard since that day about why I did this, and I can only say that I thought to save myself some time and a bit of money during cash strapped month, and that having spent a large part of the previous months travelling away from my family for work, I was tired and my judgement awry. Ever since my encounter with the inspector I realise what I have done is wrong and incredibly stupid. I don't know what I was thinking. I am a parent to two young children and work for a charity and volunteer in my community – I have, until this moment, been a law-abiding person in every way. Since this incident, I have discussed the moral issues of my actions with my family and read up on fare evasion. I don’t know why at the time I justified to myself to try and evade a fare, but I now fully realise how gravely wrong what I did was.

This by no way is an excuse, and I sincerely promise that I will never do this again. This has been my first offence and I can assure you it will be my last. I have used the railway between XXXX and London for over 10 years without any such incident happening before. I would be completely willing to commit to not using carnet tickets again.

Therefore in regards to the following that has been alleged
* entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel and
* Altering a ticket with intent.

I admit both counts and would like to offer my humble, sincerest apologies to you and your team.

I am aware such actions cost Govia Thameslink Railway financially and take up a huge amount of time. I would therefore like to offer a settlement to recognise this and avoid it being escalated further. I would like to offer payment of costs incurred as a result of my inappropriate, thoughtless and frankly stupid actions, along with the cost of the fare avoided, and a voluntary contribution in light of my wrongdoing.

Once again I would like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my version of events in regards to the morning of XXXXX.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

On the morning of XXXXX I boarded the XX.XX train to XXXX at XXXX with an altered carnet ticket for XXXX to London stations. I had used it the previous day, on XXXX, and altered it to show the date of XXXX.



As I have said you need to be careful about admitting you intentionaly altered a carnet to take advantage.

If I worked in a revenue protection office and was proceeding by way of bye law offence and you wrote a letter to me like that admitting you altered a carnet I would definetly go from a bye law offence to a RORA and other deception offences. That would be my job (the evidence not begging to be let off letters).

At the moment the evidence that the TOC have is that the date had been overwritten. And it looks as though that is the way they are proceeding by way of a bye law offence.

Sometimes people write the wrong date in, and then alter it to the correct date by mistake.There is no intent to defraud in that case.

If you go opening your mouth admitting to intention to defraud you could really hang yourself.

I would not send a letter like that. If you want to admit to IT (what ever IT is) just use words that indicate you know that matters are wrong and you failed to do what was required by the railway laws and as such are sorry and will make sure you adhere and observe the ticketing ruels in future. Along with a requets to settle the matter out of court.

Don't go giving evidence against yourself.

 

[Puffing Devil]

On the morning of XXXXX I boarded the XX.XX train to XXXX at XXXX with an altered carnet ticket for XXXX to London stations. I had used it the previous day, on XXXX, and altered it to show the date of XXXX.



As I have said you need to be careful about admitting you intentionaly altered a carnet to take advantage.

If I worked in a revenue protection office and was proceeding by way of bye law offence and you wrote a letter to me like that admitting you altered a carnet I would definetly go from a bye law offence to a RORA and other deception offences. That would be my job (the evidence not begging to be let off letters).

At the moment the evidence that the TOC have is that the date had been overwritten. And it looks as though that is the way they are proceeding by way of a bye law offence.

Sometimes people write the wrong date in, and then alter it to the correct date by mistake.There is no intent to defraud in that case.

If you go opening your mouth admitting to intention to defraud you could really hang yourself.

I would not send a letter like that. If you want to admit to IT (what ever IT is) just use words that indicate you know that matters are wrong and you failed to do what was required by the railway laws and as such are sorry and will make sure you adhere and observe the ticketing ruels in future. Along with a requets to settle the matter out of court.

Don't go giving evidence against yourself.

This is very good advice - admit to and be apologetic to the offence as charged, without giving additional incriminating information that may lead to an upgrading of the charge. You'll have the case reference number and if you have that at the start of your letter, they will be able to find your file.

 

[Izzy38]

Thanks to all who have given me advice on the thread and through PMs. I really appreciate it - I am beside myself with worry at the moment and trying very hard to approach this calmly and sensibly. I keep thinking back to the day I did it and feeling so stupid and, to be honest, like a pretty horrible person.

I have rewritten the letter - if anyone has any further suggestions I am all ears. Thanks for your time.

Dear Sir/Madam

REF: (relevant no.)

I would like to thank you for your letter (dated XX February 2018) and am grateful to you for allowing me the opportunity to tell you what happened, factually and honestly.




On the morning of XXXX 2017 I got on the XX.XX train to London at XXX with an altered ticket for XXXX to London Thameslink. During that journey my ticket was checked by a revenue protection inspector who questioned me about the validity of my ticket. I was cooperative and polite in answering his questions.

In regards to the following that has been alleged
* entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel and
* altering a ticket with intent
I admit both counts and would like to offer my humble, sincerest apologies to you and Govia Thameslink Railway.

I am mortified that I did this. I have used the railway between XXXX and London for over 10 years without having done anything like this before, and I assure you that I have definitely learned my lesson. I have thought long and hard since that day about why I did, and I can only say that I thought to save myself a bit of money during a cash strapped month, and that having spent a large part of the previous months travelling away from my family for work, I was tired and my judgement awry. This is by no means an excuse - I know what I did was very wrong, and I sincerely promise that I will never do this again. Since this incident, I have read up on fare evasion and thought about my conversation with the Inspector, and I now fully realise how gravely wrong what I did was. This has been my first offence and I can assure you it will be my last.

I am aware such actions cost the company financially and take up a huge amount of time. I would therefore like to offer a settlement to recognise this and avoid it being escalated further. I would like to offer payment of costs incurred as a result of my inappropriate, thoughtless and frankly stupid actions, along with the cost of the fare avoided.

Yours sincerely,

 

[falcon]

Thanks to all who have given me advice on the thread and through PMs. I really appreciate it - I am beside myself with worry at the moment and trying very hard to approach this calmly and sensibly. I keep thinking back to the day I did it and feeling so stupid and, to be honest, like a pretty horrible person.

I have rewritten the letter - if anyone has any further suggestions I am all ears. Thanks for your time.

Dear Sir/Madam

REF: (relevant no.)

I would like to thank you for your letter (dated XX February 2018) and am grateful to you for allowing me the opportunity to tell you what happened, factually and honestly.




On the morning of XXXX 2017 I got on the XX.XX train to London at XXX with an altered ticket for XXXX to London Thameslink. During that journey my ticket was checked by a revenue protection inspector who questioned me about the validity of my ticket. I was cooperative and polite in answering his questions.

In regards to the following that has been alleged
* entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel and
* altering a ticket with intent
I admit both counts and would like to offer my humble, sincerest apologies to you and Govia Thameslink Railway.

I am mortified that I did this. I have used the railway between XXXX and London for over 10 years without having done anything like this before, and I assure you that I have definitely learned my lesson. I have thought long and hard since that day about why I did, and I can only say that I thought to save myself a bit of money during a cash strapped month, and that having spent a large part of the previous months travelling away from my family for work, I was tired and my judgement awry. This is by no means an excuse - I know what I did was very wrong, and I sincerely promise that I will never do this again. Since this incident, I have read up on fare evasion and thought about my conversation with the Inspector, and I now fully realise how gravely wrong what I did was. This has been my first offence and I can assure you it will be my last.

I am aware such actions cost the company financially and take up a huge amount of time. I would therefore like to offer a settlement to recognise this and avoid it being escalated further. I would like to offer payment of costs incurred as a result of my inappropriate, thoughtless and frankly stupid actions, along with the cost of the fare avoided.
Yours sincerely,

You are admiiting RORA offences here.

You need to word things differently.

That letter is a confession!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You are admiiting RORA offences here.

I agree.

That letter is a confession

Effectively, yes.

You need to word things differently.

That must be for Izzy38 to decide. I can't watch advice be given in silence when that advice conspires to conceal a truth.

Perhaps that advice could be phrased in another way, so that its meaning was closer to "if you wish to conceal the truth about having altered the ticket, in the hope that it would allow travel on the day you were questioned, then you wouldn't then admit to that truth in a letter to the Railway Company as you have on here."

(Or some other less convoluted phrasing).

Advising anyone to lie, or to mis-represent the truth. in a criminal matter is advice which carries a heavy ethical burden of responsibility, and risks the potential of conspiring to pervert the course of justice - a Common Law offence which can carry a custodial sentence.

 

[Izzy38]

Thank you DaveNewcastle and falcon for your thoughts and perspective.

I don't wish to conceal the truth as this would be further dishonesty on top of what I have already done. And at any rate, they have the evidence - the ticket. If the train company don't want to settle then I would intend to plead guilty as I did do it, and hope that an early guilty plea and cooperating would lead to a more lenient sentence or fine.

My thoughts are that appealing for a settlement based on not having a track record of doing this sort of thing, and cooperating with the train company from the outset and not requiring them to do lots of additional work, are my best chances of this not ending up in court. But I know it may do, all the same - that's their right and it's my mess I've got myself into.

 

[cuccir]

I think the suggestion is that there might be ways of stating regret and understanding of the seriousness of what has happened, without also declaring guilt or otherwise in relation to the charges, which is what you're effectively doing here.

In particular, if the aim is to secure an out of court settlement, you might consider that any correspondence might be used as evidence, and that a train company might on receiving a letter which clearly admits the offence decide that such a letter would help secure a quick conviction in court; and as such, that settling out of court is less desirable.

These comments are made with DaveNewcastle's sensible post in mind too - that is, that any lies or concealing of truth in a letter would also be a bad idea.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I would definitely leave out the bit about having 'used the railway between XXXX and London for over 10 years'. If anything is guaranteed to make them think, 'hmmm, how likely is it that this is the first time a Carnet has been re-used by this individual', that phrase would pique their curiosity, surely?

 

[najaB]

I don't wish to conceal the truth as this would be further dishonesty on top of what I have already done. And at any rate, they have the evidence - the ticket. If the train company don't want to settle then I would intend to plead guilty as I did do it, and hope that an early guilty plea and cooperating would lead to a more lenient sentence or fine.

You don't have to conceal the truth, just don't volunteer information that they may not already have. So rather than "I admit both counts" perhaps "I offer no defence against either count" and why say "...I thought to save myself a bit of money..." at all?

 

[mazza887]

Dear Sir/Madam

REF: (relevant no.)

I would like to thank you for your letter (dated XX February 2018) and I am grateful for the opportunity to explain what happened.

On the morning of XXXX 2017 I got on the XX.XX train to London Thameslink at XXXX. During that journey my ticket was checked by a revenue protection inspector who questioned me about the validity of my ticket. I was cooperative and polite in answering his questions.

In regards to the following that has been alleged:
* entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel and
* altering a ticket with intent

I offer no defence against either counts and I would like to offer my humble, sincerest apologies to you and Govia Thameslink Railway.

I have thought long and hard since that day about this incident and feel that having spent a large part of the previous months travelling away from my family for work, I was tired and my judgement awry. This is by no means an excuse - I know what happened was very wrong, and I sincerely promise that this will never happen again.

I am aware this incident has cost the company financially and take up a huge amount of time. I would therefore like to offer an administrative settlement to recognise this and avoid it being escalated further. I would like to offer payment of costs incurred as a result of my thoughtless actions, along with the cost of the fare.

Yours sincerely,

 

[Izzy38]

Thanks so much for the advice everyone, it has really helped me.
I will let you know how things get on.

 

[najaB]

Thanks so much for the advice everyone, it has really helped me.
I will let you know how things get on.

Just as a note if you haven't already sent your reply - there is a subtle but significant difference between "I have no defence" and "I offer no defence". The former is an admission of guilt while the latter is not.

 

[Izzy38]

Thanks to all of you for the advice. I've got a letter back today from the train company asking me to call them.

From reading other threads my hopes are raised that this means they want to discuss a settlement - is that likely what's going to happen? Or will it be a further interview about what happened do you think?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[najaB]

From reading other threads my hopes are raised that this means they want to discuss a settlement...

I think it's likely, but by no means definite. Please let us know how you get on.

 

[Izzy38]

So I got through to them this morning and had a chat with one of their officers. They do want to give me the chance of a settlement, and want me to email them back an offer. She said it should at least cover their costs of £145 and the fare of £11.80 but that it was up to me to present them with a figure. She added that the fine I would usually face for a byelaw offence was around £250.

I am thinking of offering £300 but I'm not really sure if that's enough, or too much? Would anyone have any ideas?

I should add that the staff I have spoken to there are some of the most pleasant people I have ever dealt with on the phone - really kind and making sure I understood everything clearly!

 

[Haywain]

£300 sounds more than is necessary, by some distance. They have said it needs to be a minimum of £156.80, so I might be inclined to go for £175.

 

[Mathew S]

£300 sounds more than is necessary, by some distance. They have said it needs to be a minimum of £156.80, so I might be inclined to go for £175.

Indeed. The TOC are saving money by not prosecuting remember, so less than what they would get in court wouldn't, to me, seem unreasonable.

 

[Darandio]

I guess we can all give a figure that seems reasonable to us. If it was me in this situation, i'd offer £200 simply as a rough medium between the £150 and £250. I feel that offering this halfway figure would give me the best chance of acceptance, but the mileage of others may vary, £175 may well be enough.

 

[Izzy38]

Thanks everyone, I have offered them £200 and I hope this will be ok.

 

[Izzy38]

I wanted to let you know that my offer has been accepted and so all has ended well.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice, I really appreciated it at a very anxious time.

To help others who may end up in the same position, the train company told me that where it is a first offence, the passenger cooperates and engages with them, and shows remorse, they are nearly always prepared to consider a settlement.

 

[najaB]

I wanted to let you know that my offer has been accepted and so all has ended well.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice, I really appreciated it at a very anxious time.

Glad to hear it, thanks for letting us know.